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Close Where do I find the Guidelines for Posting Art?

Braethe

New Member
Um..

I got this earlier today with no way to contact forum support:

Removed to adhere to our Forum Rules.

I apparently committed a copyright violation by posting my own art with my name on it, but that's my closest guess since there's no detail for what the "copyright rule" I disregarded is. The content itself was definitely SFW,more than comfortably transformative and is 100% mine.

The "Read me" in the Artist's Corner links to a forum rule post that is broken. I know because I tried to read them prior to making the thread and came up with zilch to look at. Where are the guidelines for posting art? What guidelines did I specifically violate? Where are the copyright rules I'm supposed to find so I can be familiar with them? I scoured the forum and didn't see any postings for forum rules. There's one in the Help section for using the forum but I saw nothing about copyright there. I even literally did searches for any posts with a title like "forum guidelines","copyright" or "forum rules" and came up empty on finding a post that matched. I spent well over a half hour scouring the forums in case I missed something available to read on the forum guidelines or some art posting rules. I mean I literally went through every page of threads in the Artist's Corner and skimmed through the help forum. What am I missing here?

No offense meant, but if this is how issues with the art forum are handled, I can see why it's kind of a deadzone and mostly full of memes. Maybe have information readily available if you intend for people to follow it and be clear about why you're taking certain actions. At the very least you could have thrown in a link to the guidelines or referenced something.

The only thing I can guess is that one of the guidelines I specified was against their guidelines which would mean they're encouraging me to to post my art with no watermarks or copyright protection,essentially creative death and very suspicious for any community trying to encourage creative sharing. A reputable space wanting art shared wouldn't force artists to take that risk with their work in my opinion. My artist name is my name (technically my pen name since only part of it is legally binding). A lot of artist names are a person's name. How am I supposed to share art and properly watermark it without my name showing? How is any artist supposed to do that if their artist name is their name (which again is common)? I want to share art but I can't just dump art online anywhere with no watermark. It's the equivalent to just asking someone to swipe it.

Alternatively, the forum staff might be implicating I've violated a copyright law because I've stolen something in the creation of my art, which I don't appreciate and consider slander. I do create generated characters but I can prove with receipts I have a full license to create commercial characters with it. My art is mine and I have never committed art theft. Just because art isn't hand drawn doesn't mean it's automatically stolen. I do draw, but I primarily use generated bases because I'm physically disabled and drawing strains my joints more. Is it possible actual art isn't allowed and just the signatures and avatars because that seems like an odd direction to take and puts into question why I saw some users posting fanbased projects. Like one that was put up recently was some kind of video using a game inspired character that wasn't hand-drawn, but I checked and it's still up.

I'm willing to follow guidelines but where are the guidelines? If anyone can clue me in on what's going on here it would be great. I was really excited to share some work with the community after the cake contest, but this is a huge letdown.
 
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ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
I can't answer your question about guidelines. I can't find them either. But I can take a guess at the copyright thing.

Copyrights are a set of rights you have or not. You, as creator of the art, have the rights to where it is displayed and how. But, if you used somebody's software to create it, especially if you say you used their software, they have the right to block how and where you post the art you created. Sigh 1. The reason is that the software may contain proprietary methods and those methods, it is argued, enabled you to create the art you did. Which means the art reflects the tools you used, and the tool maker wants to have some say in what you make with the tools. Example: Suppose you invented a new type of explosive for the mining industry. Would you like the army to use it for their "work?" You might not and thus you might have the right to restrict it's range of use. In the art world, the display right is different from the production right and the distribution right and so on and so on.

A second thing is that the place displaying the art can be sued if they sort of knowingly displayed a work of art that was a copy of some other artist. Just as if you plagiarize. But here's the thing. They don't have to actually know (which is the "sort of" just mentioned) you plagiarized, if the work is on a level that means it might have been copied from some other artist. So if I take a song that sort of sounds like some obscure Beatle tune, and publish it without investigating if it is that Beatle tune, those holding the rights to that Beatle tune, can sue me. Companies like Inno don't have the time or energy to actually do the kind of work needed to insure the art wasn't "heavily derived" or even "stolen" from another artist, so if it looks professional, they often just refuse to display it. It's sort of a backhanded complement that they refuse to display it because it's that good. Sigh 2

Of course I'm not part of Inno and never played an employee of Inno on TV either. So maybe I'm way out of line in suggesting these reasons. And maybe the rules, wherever they might be, have in them something about all this of which I'm not aware. So, in short, I could be wrong.

Looking forward to more of your art.

AJ
 

Braethe

New Member
ajqtrz said:
I can't answer your question about guidelines. I can't find them either. But I can take a guess at the copyright thing.

Copyrights are a set of rights you have or not. You, as creator of the art, have the rights to where it is displayed and how. But, if you used somebody's software to create it, especially if you say you used their software, they have the right to block how and where you post the art you created. Sigh 1. The reason is that the software may contain proprietary methods and those methods, it is argued, enabled you to create the art you did. Which means the art reflects the tools you used, and the tool maker wants to have some say in what you make with the tools. Example: Suppose you invented a new type of explosive for the mining industry. Would you like the army to use it for their "work?" You might not and thus you might have the right to restrict it's range of use. In the art world, the display right is different from the production right and the distribution right and so on and so on.

A second thing is that the place displaying the art can be sued if they sort of knowingly displayed a work of art that was a copy of some other artist. Just as if you plagiarize. But here's the thing. They don't have to actually know (which is the "sort of" just mentioned) you plagiarized, if the work is on a level that means it might have been copied from some other artist. So if I take a song that sort of sounds like some obscure Beatle tune, and publish it without investigating if it is that Beatle tune, those holding the rights to that Beatle tune, can sue me. Companies like Inno don't have the time or energy to actually do the kind of work needed to insure the art wasn't "heavily derived" or even "stolen" from another artist, so if it looks professional, they often just refuse to display it. It's sort of a backhanded complement that they refuse to display it because it's that good. Sigh 2

Of course I'm not part of Inno and never played an employee of Inno on TV either. So maybe I'm way out of line in suggesting these reasons. And maybe the rules, wherever they might be, have in them something about all this of which I'm not aware. So, in short, I could be wrong.

Looking forward to more of your art.

AJ
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I want to respond to this so it's really clear to people that the tool developer is not the issue here. I use ePic Character Generator Pro and have a purchased commercial license. Additionally, they are an AMAZING developer company. They openly encourage creation,make it affordable and have zero history of takedowns or sabotaging what users make with their software. This is 100% the forum staff's decision and I would bet my own pinky finger the tool developer had nothing to do with it. I actually have the developer as a friend on Discord. He's always super excited to have people post and showcase work and has never once discouraged me or any other users of the program from posting content or even making commercial games and products with it.

But I'd additionally caution anyone on thinking capable looking art "might be stolen". I'm a self taught artist and I can guarantee you that even with the digital route or even 3D art that it takes years to "git gud" at it. Assuming that a piece of art that sticks out is stolen is extremely disrespectful to artists that have worked hard to learn the skills they have,regardless of the tools being used. Just because an artist is a freelancer doesn't guarantee corners are being cut. Every program,asset and tool I use is properly licensed and being used in a legal manner and most artists are well educated on copyright law and how it works, because knowing it means we get screwed over less. It's not optional for freelance creatives to know copyright law in modern times.

I would also argue that checking art isn't hard. Reverse image searches are a click away. Knee jerk art deletion is a lazy approach. It took me less than five minutes to reverse image search my art and not find matches. Thank you for suggesting my art was too good though. It slightly softens the blow.
 
Sodbury

Sodbury

Active Member
That other player posts similar nifty Elvenar-like images in another thread without censure. I suspect that the copyright complaints stem from posting Elvenar character variants with links to a commercial site of your own. Also, you included some claims as to ownership of the work.

Looks like drawing Elvenar material is okay. Making claims regarding ownership and offering higher resolution versions on your own commercial site may not be.

I agree that the rules are unhelpful regarding the copyright aspect of your deletion.
 

Braethe

New Member
Scrounge Witch said:
I'm getting ready to start posting images too. I found numerous items that matter in the forum rules:
Click to expand...
Fair enough but the one line on copyrights wouldn't apply here since I have a full legal license to use the program for commercial use. That should have been verified by the forum staff. Also, how the heck did you find that post? I literally searched its title "Forum rules" and nothing came up as a result. Why are the guidelines buried and not front and center on the forum index? The only thing that might have been slightly off are my picture sizes but that's not what they stated was the reason for the thread getting deleted.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
@Braethe As I said. I could be wrong. It was only something I've experienced in music, where I do my creative stuff, mostly. And, also to be clear, I'm not saying Inno pulled any of the art for the possible reasons I listed, because I don't know. I probably should have left there name out of it. Sorry.

AJ
 

Braethe

New Member
Sodbury said:
That other player posts similar nifty Elvenar-like images in another thread without censure. I suspect that the copyright complaints stem from posting Elvenar character variants with links to a commercial site of your own. Also, you included some claims as to ownership of the work.

Looks like drawing Elvenar material is okay. Making claims regarding ownership and offering higher resolution versions on your own commercial site may not be.

I agree that the rules are unhelpful regarding the copyright aspect of your deletion.
Click to expand...
Patreon is actually not a 100% commercial site. Anytime I do work that's even close to fan-based it's free content and I don't offer it for download or usage,viewing only. I also don't put it on anything or really do much with it. I just make it for the sake of creative fun. Not to mention, the work was different enough to be considered transformative and not a shot-for-shot copy, so even if I was going to do something commercial with it would be a distinctive product at that point. It's an elven character inspired by the Elvenar look.
Interestingly, even if someone is doing fanart, most forms of copyright recognize the art itself does belong to the artist. Owning intellectual property and owning an artwork are sort of two sides of the same coin in a way.

For instance if I create an artwork based on a licensed character, I own that piece of art but have no rights to profit from it or distribute it. In reverse of that, a company can't profit off an artist's work even though it's based on their IP. They can sue if the person actually infringes on the copyright, but if the person does nothing illegal with it and just displays it in an online gallery without using it for direct profit, the company has very little grounds to take serious action. This is why fanart falls into such a nebulous category sometimes on what you can and can't do without someone having a fit. Sadly, I'm likely going to have to scrap this project altogether if Inno is going to have an issue with it. I was really looking forward to doing it and had a lot of fun creating the characters but there's not much to do if a company doesn't like fan projects.
 

Braethe

New Member
ajqtrz said:
@Braethe As I said. I could be wrong. It was only something I've experienced in music, where I do my creative stuff, mostly. And, also to be clear, I'm not saying Inno pulled any of the art for the possible reasons I listed, because I don't know. I probably should have left there name out of it. Sorry.

AJ
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No problem, AJ! I was just addressing the content and primarily I wanted to make sure no one got the idea that the developer of the tool is like that. I have yet to see what Inno is really like, but the issue is the hard to find rules and vague reasoning here. If there was some specific violation it would have taken a mere moment to type in what that was to reduce confusion. Telling people to follow rules when those rules aren't fully accessible is a bit odd to me and rather frustrating.

I can't be 100% on how differently copyright law works toward music unfortunately, but it may hold some minor differences to how visual art is treated if I had to guess, with some points where it crosses over I'm sure. You were just trying to help based on what you knew and I appreciate it.
 

Braethe

New Member
Just chiming in here because I was doing some detective work on the link Scrounge Witch left. For reference too, I'm also a certified IT person which might matter before bringing this up. The url https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.702/ indicates that this Forum Rules thread should be a main thread on the forum index. Basically,if a URL has a /whatever, it's to indicate a path or breadcrumb in a URL. Since this URL lacks breadcrumbs, it should be in the main index. Is there maybe a technical issue in the forum that might explain why it's not showing up properly? I've set up forum scripts before and I'm wondering if maybe there's a script issue or a setting on the post making it not visible where it should be. I mean alternatively, the link could be doctored to hide the actual location but that seems like a rather odd thing to do with a forum post, especially one listing core usage rules.

Correction: It's there but I was expecting it to be a thread and not a tiny side link. It doesn't change that I wasn't advertising or using material I didn't have full license to use. Also, if your links are hard to find by multiple people, it's kind of a sign the page design might need reworking and the navigation might not be the best. UI placement is about making sure vital links are placed right in front of an audience's face. It seems like not knowing where to find things in the forums is a common issue.
 
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Alram

Alram

Flippers just flip
On mobile, you can find the rules on the front forum page. They are in the quicklinks section towards the bottom. You can also find a link to Support there.
 

Braethe

New Member
Also, just putting this out here for the staff to consider. If you want to encourage artists to post art, most of them won't want to if they can't also share where their portfolio is. An artist sharing or mentioning a portfolio link isn't quite the same as "advertising" and I can promise you with the numbers of artists using Patreon that slapping wrists for mentioning it will drive a lot of artists off from participating in a community like this. If it's advertisement for anyone, it's Inno. I can't make any money off of it and it helps drum up interest in an IP if artists are sharing fanwork and respecting your copyright by not profiting from it.

Unfortunately, that's Inno's call here. Some companies don't like fan projects and I guess that's fine. I'm just pretty bummed about scrapping a project I was excited for. Guess I'll just rehash the bases into something else and stick to the game and not the forums moving forward.
 

Braethe

New Member
Iyapo said:
I think it is perfectly reasonable to decline to post your art here if you are not allowed to advertise.
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It's not all about the advertising. I genuinely love Elvenar as a game and I also love character design. I just wanted to do a fun non-profit project of making some derivative Elvenar inspired characters. I still think Elvenar is a great game, but it's confusing how to feel about the other components based on this experience. Most freelancers are just instinctively wary when sites want them to strip off proof of creation. Watermarks aren't advertisements. They're a thin security veil that helps put artists at ease in a tense environment rife with art theft. If sites want artists to share art, there needs to be artist friendly policies that show they understand the needs and risks creatives have.
 
Silmaril

Silmaril

Community Manager
Hey guys just to clarify to help here.

The issue is not the artwork as such, the issue is the breach of our Forum Rules.

Please be aware that this is a private Forum with very specific Forum Rules that are not only limited to these but are also covered in our terms and rules which can be located at the bottom of every page here on the Forum and on the login page to the Game.

Hoping that this helps to explain the Rule breaches further.

As per our Forum Rule 13: Can we ask that if you wish to discuss any support interactions, that you raise a support ticket where we will be more than happy to help.
 
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