Why KP Swap Threads ain't the best use of Fellowship KP

[aWizardOfManyColors]

I started thinking about how a Fellowship would make the most of their collective Reward Chests when their Ancient Wonder research reaches completion, and I'd like to air my conclusions here to see how they hold up to scrutiny. Please discuss!

A lot of fellowships make use of 3 or more parallel KP Swap threads with preset amounts; 40, 20, and 5 KP for example. You donate the designated amount to whoever posted last, and leave a message with your AW of choice for the next person to donate to. It's a fairly smooth way to make use of the Ancient Knowledge instants that all Fellowship members have a steady supply of through tournaments and events, while ensuring that at least some (if not all) of the Help Reward Chests are unlocked every time a Wonder upgrade is researched. But it isn't clear who benefits from these rewards and there's no guarantee that all Reward Chests are unlocked merely by the natural progress of the KP Swap Threads, which leads me to my hypothesis:

Researching your own Wonders to a point, then announcing its near completion in the Fellowship chat, is probably the best approach. This might surprise you since it appears on the surface as the least organized strategy; most Fellowships that don't make use of KP Swap Threads probably have Fellows announcing their nearly completed Wonders all the time. My main argument for this being the fairest method is simple: it's very clear that the reward goes to the player whose Wonder gets upgraded. Say there are 6 chests of 30, 20, 15, 10, 10, and 5 KP respectively, and all these are matched exactly with 6 Fellows donating a total of 90 KP. Each of the donating Fellows will be reimbursed, making no profit and no loss, so the 90 Reward KP has gone straight into the Wonder in question (let's consider Rune Shards a bonus for simplicity's sake). So the system rewards whoever puts KP into their own Wonders, and nobody makes a loss while the Fellowship as a whole makes full use of the extra KP attained through the Reward Chests. (Besides, Fellows can make an effort to actively donate more of their KP to Wonders that they need Rune Shards for.)

If we try to examine who stands to gain most from a KP Swap Thread, it gets a little complicated. Still, the most active investors gain the biggest rewards, but you have less control over whither you donate your KP, and there's no guarantee that all Reward Chests are unlocked unless you combine it with announcing nearly completed Wonders anyway as a complement - but quite frankly, this makes the whole KP Swap Thread system redundant to begin with.

There are plenty more systems and strategies out there, but I challenge you to suggest a cleaner, clearer and more direct way to fully utilize the Reward Chests than the simple and straight-forward "announce it in chat" strategy.

One drawback could be that it's difficult for very casual players to know exactly what the rewards are, not knowing the color coding used to convey the amounts of Ancient Knowledge by heart. This can be side-stepped by having the announcer clarify exactly what rewards are at stake, for example: "Golden Abyss almost done, 6 chests (30/20/15/10/10/5) available." Then you close your eyes and pray that your Fellows are sober enough to donate the exact amounts accordingly.

 

[Lelanya]

So what is your question?

 

[aWizardOfManyColors]

"Do you have questions, or do you want to help others with your guides? This is the place to be!"

I suppose this is a guide, of sorts. Where would you propose I posted it instead?

 

[Deleted User - 849402856]

I agree that this is the fairest approach (and I once also came up with the same idea). In addition, the idea is essentially the same as what is called "NetZero", although I don't think it is being widely used.

 

[ElfGunn]

Question to OP:
My FS has been using a system similar to your proposal. We say when an AW is getting close if there are chests available, but not specifically the chest amounts.

To align with your proposal, is it intended that whoever takes a chest should contribute the same amount as in the chest?

From discussions of this topic on other threads, it is my understanding that the amount in the chest will be some combination of AWKP 20 (purple) and AWKP 5 (blue). So if there's a 20 and two 5s, the person claiming that chest should contribute 30 AWKP?

Related questions:
What to do if someone has claimed the top chest with a small donation?
What to do about non-FS players who have claimed a chest?

Thanks!

 

[Darielle]

The only problem I see is that if you announce when you are, say, 90 kp away from your goal, you aren't going to get 90 kp donated. If someone donates 10 first, then no one is going to want to leapfrog over him to get a higher reward. He was there first, after all. So the most you'll get is 60 and probably much less, since it's quite possible that someone will go in and put a fiver on to begin with, and then everyone else will be accused of leapfrogging that person. The only ones that it is "polite" to leapfrog, in some fellowships, are those who left one or maybe 2 kp. Anything more than that and people are hesitant to do it.

 

[Darielle]

I like the AW threads, myself. No one is accused of leapfrogging, because in order to utilize that thread, you must put the required kp in. And when you have an active AW thread, you know it's going to be taken up within a few hours or a day at most. You won't have to wait long. And I would far, far rather have 500 kp of mine going into 10 different wonders, where I'm going to get some decent reward with 50kp on eaach, than to have that 500 kp go on my wonder, without any chance of those 10 rewards, and then hope that someone will finish it off in a reasonable time. More likely, someone will put 10 kp on it and then everyone else will fill it up with five kp, and then I'll be stuck putting another 50 or more kp of my own into my wonder. In other words, I'll put 550 kp into my own wonder instead of using that to get rewards from a bunch of different people ... guaranteed reward, not just "I hope someone will donate a decent amount." Anyway, the current system works for me only because we have very active kp threads with a high turnover. None of them languishes for more than a day. If I was in a fellowship where this was not the case, your idea might work well.

 

[Alram]

I prefer the KP threads too. Whether I end up with a chest or not, I'm guaranteed to at least break even.

 

[Iyapo1]

I am with @Darielle and @Alram on this one.

KP swap threads are easy and any kp people get in chests usually ends up right back in the swap. The net zero is great, but I only recently learned that the color coding in the chests was 20s or 5s. I am willing to bet a lot of players dont know that. They cant post expected amounts for each chest....and unless the expected amounts are listed in chat they wont give expected amounts either.

 

[AtaguS]

We use the wonder works system in our fellowship, which sounds esssentially like what you are talking about. We use a spreadsheet for this. The spreadsheet automatically lists the various chests and how much kp they are worth. It's easy:
Once a player has put 75% of the required kp into their AW, they post it on the spreadsheet and then announce that it's posted in an in-game message thread.
Other players then go to the spreadsheet and sign-up under a reward chest, donating only exactly the amount of kp needed by the reward chest.
Once the reward chests are all claimed and filled, the player who's AW it is fills in the remaining required amount.
Everyone gets the exact amount of kp back that they invested and some players get rune shards out of the deal.

Pros:
-You don't have to donate 150 or more kp to "win" 20 and a rune shard or two (so rune shards only ever 'cost' the required kp and no more)
-You are not in competition with your fellows to claim the highest chest. (If you need rune shards for a posted AW then claim a rune reward...if not, then claim a 10 or 5kp chest and leave the runes for someone who may need them)
-Fewer mistakes since players aren't rushing to fill all the swap threads at once and "double posting".


Cons:
-It takes longer to level up an AW because you are having to put 75% of the required kp in by yourself before posting it.
-Sometimes a friendly neighbor comes along and bumps your fellows out of their "claimed chest". (How you or if you arrange to repay those lost kp to them is up to the fellowship to decide)
- You have to be willing and able to use a spreadsheet.
- You never - or rarely - get back more kp than you donate.

Personally, it took a little getting used to when we moved to the new system but I find it fair and easy to use. Chests don't linger unclaimed and if a chest is unclaimed longer than, say, 24hrs, a mage will post about it in the chat and everyone rushes over to the SS to help their fellow out. It takes some of the rush and frenzy out of the process, which I didn't like about the swap threads. And it gives us all an opportunity to work together to help each other out - which just promotes unity and good will at the end of the day.
Take it or leave it, but I'm used to it now and am not sure I would want to change back to swap threads if given the choice.

EDIT: PS...it is also possible to play this way without using a spreadsheet. You would just post your AW in a message thread and do the work of listing the reward chests and their kp amounts. You'd use a "*" to indicate if and how many runes shards are in there. Then everyone else just copies and pastes your message and adds their name beside a reward chest to claim it. This way is more work, but not so much that it's off putting.

 

[Kekune]

I'm part of a small (not a full fellowship; about 8-9 people) net zero swap, and absolutely love it. It is much, MUCH less tedious than the swap threads. The threads are fine when you aren't doing much, but if you're techlocked or at end game, and need to dump a few hundred kp in a tournament, the threads are a pain. In the net zero system, I've got waaaaay less mail, waaaaaay fewer clicks to donate, and fair rewards. Works for me.

 

[Kekune]

The only problem I see is that if you announce when you are, say, 90 kp away from your goal, you aren't going to get 90 kp donated. If someone donates 10 first, then no one is going to want to leapfrog over him to get a higher reward. He was there first, after all. So the most you'll get is 60 and probably much less, since it's quite possible that someone will go in and put a fiver on to begin with, and then everyone else will be accused of leapfrogging that person. The only ones that it is "polite" to leapfrog, in some fellowships, are those who left one or maybe 2 kp. Anything more than that and people are hesitant to do it.

The system described only works if all members who participate commit to buying chests at face value. There's no worry about leapfrogging, no guessing about how much to put in, or how much you're going to get back. The "swap pod" I'm in has all agreed that our goal is to be totally fair with each other; we will buy chests at exactly face value, and if there's a problem somewhere (error, intruder, etc.) we will correct it so nobody loses KP. As a result, we get our "rewards" (20% of the AW value donated by our pod members) free, clear, and easy. It's the same (average) result as the swap threads, but with about twelve billion (minor exaggeration) fewer clicks and notifications.

And I often hear people say, "but I could get more rewards in the swap threads!" and that may be true...but you could also get less. And if you do get more, you're doing so at a fellow's expense. There is only 20% of the AW value to go around as rewards...so if you manage a 30% return, you caused somebody else to get less - maybe nothing. Net zero makes it even-steven.

 

[mucksterme]

We do both the swap threads and the announcing.

The thing about swap threads.

1 They are easy
2 There is no way to lose. If you invest 50kp the least you will get back is 50kp. And there is the possibility of getting extra kp.

The announce method is also easy.
It is a good way to make sure your FS gets all available chests and
it is good for people who are not active in the threads.

So you present this as which approach is better
I say, why choose?

 

[SoggyShorts]

how a Fellowship would make the most of their collective Reward Chests when their Ancient Wonder research reaches completion

https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/aw-society-vs-netzero-vs-x-which-is-best-for-someone-with-no-experience.26802/#post-210403

 

[Darielle]

We don't have problems with mistakes or rushes in our fellowship. If a person chooses say, a 50 kp thread, they first put their names in the thread and then immediately afterward, they pay the previous person on the thread. They don't do it beforehand, just to avoid two people paying at once. I think it works out well, and I've only had one person take more than 10 minutes to pay the previous person (me) in many months. A gentle reminder took care of that.

While spreadsheets would work for some groups, I can't help but remember the FA spreadsheet that we literally BEGGED people to use ... only about 1/3 of the membership used it. They all use the kp threads, however.

I think Muckster is right in this one. Different strokes for different folks is best.

 

[Gkyr]

I'm part of a small (not a full fellowship; about 8-9 people)

One problem with your preference is that you assume a stable FS. As above, it works for Kekune and I assume a small but cohesive FS.
The game reality is vastly different. Most FS have at least a small turnover of members. It takes a while to get to know who your mates are. Meanwhile, may players reveal themselves as playing for themselves and not for any common good. Also, players outside the FS search for and snipe AWs that are 'ripe for the taking'. You will find that these issues seem to be more paramount in the 'KP sharing' subject, judging by the sheer number of posts (and acrimony) they display.
In this regard, Mucksterme's point is a good one: the environment of the KP swap is as determining as the intent of any player and swap systems are advantageous or not depending upon their venue.

 

[aWizardOfManyColors]

You guys realize that the KP Swap is just an indirect, roundabout way of investing KP into your own Wonders, right? What you refer to as "extra KP" from the chests aren't any more "extra" than what you get in the Net Zero strategy (I like the name!). The Rewards will go to the most active frequenters of the KP Swap Threads which in most cases means that smaller players who have spare KP less often are at a disadvantage. At any rate, the likelihood of the Chest Rewards being spread proportionally is close to 0.

With Net Zero you're rewarded for your investment (by practically needing less KP per Wonder upgrade) without risking any loss to your Fellows.

https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/aw-society-vs-netzero-vs-x-which-is-best-for-someone-with-no-experience.26802/#post-210403

Ah, you've already thought this through and made a more streamlined presentation. Nice to see, good work! I especially like your fail-safe at the end.

My one concern with your method of donating in the early stage is that it makes sniping possible for neighbors. While they can't make any profit (as all the Rewards are already met 1:1) it can ruin the day for your Fellows when they receive less than they invested. If you flip it so that you invest in your own AW first, leaving a little more* than the exact remainder to be filled, snipers would - on the contrary - be a welcome addition. If the sniper donates the exact amount required for a chest then all is well and no harm done; they'll get their KP back, and if they donate less hoping to make a profit, a Fellow can simply overtake their Reward and push them down into making a net loss. (*For this to be possible a few points of 'breathing space' is required, so that the Fellow can reach the right amount without completing the research prematurely.)

 

[SoggyShorts]

One problem with your preference is that you assume a stable FS. As above, it works for Kekune and I assume a small but cohesive FS.
The game reality is vastly different. Most FS have at least a small turnover of members.

But since it's a NetZero, having players come and go doesn't hurt anyone.
E.g. If I put 50 KP into your wonder and you leave the FS I still Get it back unless you quit the game entirely and that wonder is never filled.

My one concern with your method of donating in the early stage is that it makes sniping possible for neighbors.

In practice, this almost never happens or happens early enough that your FS can crush the interloper by having everyone put an extra X KP(paid back by the AW owner) in to drop the outsider off completely, and they won't be coming back after that.
Snipers want a profit, and when all chests are matched then it's not possible and they move on. Donating 51 KP to grab the 50 spot and win an insignificant rune is far too risky when 2-500 KP of room is still left in the wonder.

 

[aWizardOfManyColors]

In practice, this almost never happens or happens early enough that your FS can crush the interloper by having everyone put an extra X KP(paid back by the AW owner) in to drop the outsider off completely, and they won't be coming back after that.
Snipers want a profit, and when all chests are matched then it's not possible and they move on. Donating 51 KP to grab the 50 spot and win an insignificant rune is far too risky when 2-500 KP of room is still left in the wonder.

Fair enough, that makes sense. Your fail-safe works in two ways! Brilliant.

 

[Gkyr]

But since it's a NetZero, having players come and go doesn't hurt anyone.
E.g. If I put 50 KP into your wonder and you leave the FS I still Get it back unless you quit the game entirely and that wonder is never filled.

In practice, this almost never happens or happens early enough that your FS can crush the interloper by having everyone put an extra X KP(paid back by the AW owner) in to drop the outsider off completely, and they won't be coming back after that.
Snipers want a profit, and when all chests are matched then it's not possible and they move on. Donating 51 KP to grab the 50 spot and win an insignificant rune is far too risky when 2-500 KP of room is still left in the wonder.

I was not clear. The downsides of Coming and Going does not refer to losing an investment. It refers to the time it takes for a FS to come together to benefit from an organized approach different from simple swap threads or the introduction of (transient) members who are found out to disrespect the community rules.

In the second case, yes, this works in theory but in the short (1 year) time that I have been playing I have been in FS who are not organized enough to move from complaining about it to doing what you said about it. That is why I refer to 'game reality', at least as it affects me and my FS mates.