Why KP Swap Threads ain't the best use of Fellowship KP

[DeletedUser27062]

When one of our members left a couple months ago, he put 100 kp into each person's favorite wonder, as a thank you and a good bye. That would have messed up the net zero system big time.

I'm not picking on your system. If it works for you, then by all means continue it. It just doesn't work for me. As I said before, different strokes for different folks.

It only messes up the top chest because no matter how big the donation he only gets one chest. The AW holder gets an additional bonus then and the remaining chests are sold at face value like normal.

I know this system won't be everyone's cup of tea but it is simple and virtually foolproof.

 

[Kekune]

It only messes up the top chest because no matter how big the donation he only gets one chest.

It could mess up a lot more than that, because if the top chests are all claimed then every person would get knocked down a notch. But if there had been no donations yet, it wouldn't mess up anything.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

It could mess up a lot more than that, because if the top chests are all claimed then every person would get knocked down a notch. But if there had been no donations yet, it wouldn't mess up anything.

You mean if they came in part way through the chest fill? Yes, that could mess things up which is why we fill netzeros fast. If something like that happens it's up to the AW owner to compensate players who lost kp but to be honest, in 6 months we haven't had a single mess like that. However, there was one time when I messed up and over filled an AW so then I just did a special netzero with profit and offered the chests at a slight discount.

 

[hvariidh gwendrot]

we do kp threads and top offs and everyone makes a profit, several have tried that worlds wide swap thing but it is a hot mess with people coming and going, we will bump off or down to a kp loss anyone no one knows, but leave anyone the member wants who is a "good neighbor" just everyone helping each other with a bit of easy math, 3kp gets 5kp, 8 gets 10kp 10 kp gets 15 etc etc we prefer members make a bit of profit for their contributions from the wonders rewards chests, after all it's a reward chest not a you must put in 5 to get 5 chest .. that's not a reward, i can't imagine taking the time to run a spreadsheet for wonders chests where's the fun in that ? and if the math goes wonky or an overlap happens we go in chat say oops and plop some kp on them .. then for the ones who get caught "forgetting" to pay back on threads i'm pretty sure we all have the same remedy for that lol

 

[Darielle]

Sure.
So my Level 14 NoT requires 620 kp to level up to 15. It has 7 chests offering 125 kp in rewards.
If I choose to netzero this time I need to put in a total of 495kp then I'm going to ask my awesome fs to buy the 7 chests at face value after which I can upgrade so leveling up from 14 to 15 cost me 495kp.

If I choose to use kp threads I will continue to donate kp until my aw is full. This means I send out 620 kp in order to get 620 put in my aw. But I win some reward chests from those I've donated to. I might get 40kp back, sometimes more, sometimes less. It's not guaranteed. I'd have to get 4-6 top chests otherwise I've paid more for leveling up than if I had used the netzero system.

In this way, the netzero system is a guaranteed rebate that benefits the AW holder by making upgrading cheaper.

When I add 620 to kp threads, even if I secure the top spot in only one out of 13 donations, I still earn back far more than the 40 you say you win back, on average. 40 is dismal ... you call it "average," since you say "sometimes more, sometimes less." Anyone who would ever get less than 40 kp in rewards chests when they've donated 620 (not counting the 620 they get immediately) is getting the raw end of the deal.

I would ask others to weigh in on this, because I want to see if I'm just particularly lucky or you are particularly unlucky in the kp threads. Maybe we can get a consensus on whether 40 is indeed average. If that is the case, I must be blessed.

 

[ajqtrz]

The only problem I see is that if you announce when you are, say, 90 kp away from your goal, you aren't going to get 90 kp donated. If someone donates 10 first, then no one is going to want to leapfrog over him to get a higher reward. He was there first, after all. So the most you'll get is 60 and probably much less, since it's quite possible that someone will go in and put a fiver on to begin with, and then everyone else will be accused of leapfrogging that person. The only ones that it is "polite" to leapfrog, in some fellowships, are those who left one or maybe 2 kp. Anything more than that and people are hesitant to do it.

We do both the swap threads and the announcing.

The thing about swap threads.

1 They are easy
2 There is no way to lose. If you invest 50kp the least you will get back is 50kp. And there is the possibility of getting extra kp.

Actually the last person putting in KP in a swap thread looses if the thread dies. And they do. I've tried one, two and three at a time at different levels and, at least in my active fs, they die all the time. So somebody, after a week or two, starts it over and ....it dies. The level of participation is usually 8-10 players and if you don't have more....they die. Dead swap threads don't return to the last player what he/she put in. So we don't use them.

We use Shout Outs. Rules: You have to be within 100 KP of reaching enough for the upgrade. That's really the only one. No one is required to use them and no level of contribution is required. And, they work. No administrative overhead other than to remind people if they start one with more than 100 KP needed.

Here's how we do it. My GA is 100 from the next level. I put in chat: "SO: GA 100/5" which means "Golden Abyss, 100KP from next upgrade level, 5 unclaimed chests available. Usually within an hour or two the 5 chests are claimed and sometimes the AW is "done." As each person contributes they are left to decide how much. As they do so they can (optionally) enter into chat, "90/4" (or whatever is appropriate), which means there are now 90 KP needed and 4 chests. Usually you get 3-5 of these right off the bat and that might mean 1-2 chests unclaimed. You can wait or post again if they aren't taken in a bit, or you can simply finish the AW as you desire. The emphasis is on capturing chests, not in finishing the AW for the player. So small contributions are just as good as large. Most players put in 10-20 so most of the time you get pretty close to "done." If the thing is "done" though, it's fun to put that in chat, too.

Nobody seems to be bothered by leapfrogging in this, or at least nobody has ever complained to me, the AM. If they did I might work harder to make everything more formal, but it's just too easy and fun this way, so I hope nobody ever does.

Finally, if there is a "foreigner" claiming a chest the poster can add to the original post: SO: GA 100/5 might be SO: GA 100/5+1" The +1 signals there is a "foreigner" claiming a chest and he/she can be bumped. Not putting in the "foreigner" when there is one simply means you don't care or the person is a friend so should be treated more kindly, if possible.

That's our method and for us it really works. Almost all our chests are claimed and we have about 20 of our 25 players actively and regularly doing SO's.

AJ

 

[Alram]

@Darielle
I think what they are saying is that you shouldn't win anything at all, ever, because it all belongs to them. (?)

 

[Darielle]

Let's do a hypothetical situation here:

All of the players on a KP thread are wanting to fill a level 12 Prosperity Towers, which takes 650 KP. The thread asks for 50 kp from each player.

Let's say a member had 650 points to spend on the 50 kp thread. He hits one player's PT 3x and secures a top chest for 150 points. He hits another player's PT twice and secures the 2nd chest. He earns the third spot on another, with 50 kp, and the fourth on another with 50kp, and a fifth chest on another's wonder. He earns the smallest chest (6th or 7th spot) on another person's PT, with 50 kp. The last 200 kp he spends, he doesn't earn a chest because he's too far down the list. Other members have gotten on there first. So he gets nothing out of that last 200 kp. That's actually rare, but I'm being conservative here to avoid being over confident on odds.

So what did he earn all together? He earned, of course, the 650 kp up front that he got back from players for his own wonder, which is now leveled.

Then, he also earned a chest for 40 points, a chest for 30 points, a chest for 25 points, a chest for 15 points, a chest for 10 points, and a chest for five points (In addition to runes). The rest of the time he got nothing. That totals 125 points. Far more than the 40 that you average. This is conservative, in my experience. I often make more than this, depending upon the value of the wonder.

In any case, I do not average less than I would via the net zero method, and it's fair to everyone. If they don't like the fact that they aren't getting a chest, they don't have to donate. Frankly, I don't care ... I donate anyway whether the chests are gone or not, as long as they still need my points. I figure I'm not losing anything since I'm still getting back my original amount. And I make out well on the chests overall.

 

[NightshadeCS]

Your KP swap threads die? I have never seen that happen. I'm sorry that you have that problem, but I don't think it is as common as you maybe think. Maybe others can weigh in if they have seen that happen.

 

[AtaguS]

Anyone who would ever get less than 40 kp in rewards chests when they've donated 620 (not counting the 620 they get immediately) is getting the raw end of the deal.

I'm not knocking the swap threads...There is certainly a place for them and players and fellowships who thrive on them can continue to do so. This is not an argument against them.

But one of the benefits of the net zero method is that no one, ever, is at risk of getting the raw end of the deal. The swap threads favor heavy hitting players. So there are some players in fellowships who do not see a regular return much greater than 40kp...if they see the 40.

I was one of those cities in one of the fellowships I played in. Top reward chests were going for well over 100-200kp and I just didn't have that kind of clout. More often than not I would get a 5kp return...here or there. I doubt it added up to 40kp a week very often. I resigned myself to just donating kp without an expectation of ever "winning" very much extra kp in return but at least my AWs filled quickly. Still...it was the rawer end of the deal.

With the net zero method I am able to receive rune shards at a better rate - and a cheaper rate - because I'm not in competition with anyone for them. If I open the spreadsheet and there is an AW I don't need rune shards for or haven't placed...I claim a non-rune shard chest and leave it open. Others do the same and the chests still fill quickly.

 

[CrusaderMichael]

big long giant argument against KP swaps... can be summed up as "the lazy should get equal rune shards".

No thanks.

If someone is too lazy to enter in to a KP swap, they really don't deserve an equal reward.

If only tournaments followed that rule too.

 

[Iyapo1]

If only tournaments followed that rule too.

They do. I get way more rewards with my 4k than a player who puts in 300.
Frankly I think it is great that members of my FS can break a wrist and still get blueprints with a few clicks.

 

[Darielle]

I'm not knocking the swap threads...There is certainly a place for them and players and fellowships who thrive on them can continue to do so. This is not an argument against them.

But one of the benefits of the net zero method is that no one, ever, is at risk of getting the raw end of the deal. The swap threads favor heavy hitting players. So there are some players in fellowships who do not see a regular return much greater than 40kp...if they see the 40.

I was one of those cities in one of the fellowships I played in. Top reward chests were going for well over 100-200kp and I just didn't have that kind of clout. More often than not I would get a 5kp return...here or there. I doubt it added up to 40kp a week very often. I resigned myself to just donating kp without an expectation of ever "winning" very much extra kp in return but at least my AWs filled quickly. Still...it was the rawer end of the deal.

With the net zero method I am able to receive rune shards at a better rate - and a cheaper rate - because I'm not in competition with anyone for them. If I open the spreadsheet and there is an AW I don't need rune shards for or haven't placed...I claim a non-rune shard chest and leave it open. Others do the same and the chests still fill quickly.

This is why I think my original suggestion of "different strokes for different folks" is so important. Your way works for many people, apparently. My way works for others. It's all good.

The 40kp "average" in bonus chests another player collects was based on a donation of 620 kp. I thought that was low for the amount of kp given. I always average a good deal more than 40 kp bonus chests per 620 donation on kp threads. But people who cannot afford 620 kp ... yes, I understand completely why their average would be 40 or less in return. They don't put in as much, so they don't get out as much. And as you mentioned, the top reward chests were going for 100-200 kp. If you've got 620 kp to spend, you should be able to snag at least one of those top chests, in addition to a few smaller chests. That right there would be more than the 40 average mentioned for one player.

But I would really like to see what others' players averages are. Maybe I am just lucky in averaging more than 40 in bonus chests per 620 kp given. I don't know. thoughts?

 

[Darielle]

Your KP swap threads die? I have never seen that happen. I'm sorry that you have that problem, but I don't think it is as common as you maybe think. Maybe others can weigh in if they have seen that happen.

I've never seen that happen either. They've been popular and are consistently at the top of the messages in our fellowship.

 

[Kekune]

The 40kp "average" in bonus chests another player collects was based on a donation of 620 kp. I thought that was low for the amount of kp given.

That totals 125 points. Far more than the 40 that you average.

Actually, I think Eudamonia made an error somewhere. The example began with a scenario in which the person gets exactly 125 kp:

So my Level 14 NoT requires 620 kp to level up to 15. It has 7 chests offering 125 kp in rewards.
If I choose to netzero this time I need to put in a total of 495kp then I'm going to ask my awesome fs to buy the 7 chests at face value after which I can upgrade so leveling up from 14 to 15 cost me 495kp.

Later that number switched to 40 for no reason that I can follow.

So, you two are actually describing identical rewards for an identical cost. The differences are all in the method and the consistency of that reward: in net zero, it'll be 125 out of 620 every time. In the threads, it'll vary, with the advantage going to "heavy hitters" as @AtaguS described above.

 

[Dew Spinner]

This is why I think my original suggestion of "different strokes for different folks" is so important. Your way works for many people, apparently. My way works for others. It's all good.

The 40kp "average" in bonus chests another player collects was based on a donation of 620 kp. I thought that was low for the amount of kp given. I always average a good deal more than 40 kp bonus chests per 620 donation on kp threads. But people who cannot afford 620 kp ... yes, I understand completely why their average would be 40 or less in return. They don't put in as much, so they don't get out as much. And as you mentioned, the top reward chests were going for 100-200 kp. If you've got 620 kp to spend, you should be able to snag at least one of those top chests, in addition to a few smaller chests. That right there would be more than the 40 average mentioned for one player.

But I would really like to see what others' players averages are. Maybe I am just lucky in averaging more than 40 in bonus chests per 620 kp given. I don't know. thoughts?

I think the issue is that it is lopsided toward Big Fish and Small Fish either get no reward or very little reward and it is the small fish that need the help the most.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

Actually, I think Eudamonia made an error somewhere. The example began with a scenario in which the person gets exactly 125 kp:

Later that number switched to 40 for no reason that I can follow.

So, you two are actually describing identical rewards for an identical cost. The differences are all in the method and the consistency of that reward: in net zero, it'll be 125 out of 620 every time. In the threads, it'll vary, with the advantage going to "heavy hitters" as @AtaguS described above.

The 40 kp was just an example of what you might get back from chest rewards when using kp threads (sometime it will be more, sometimes less). My point was that a person seldom wins back the full value of chests in their AW (in this case, 125kp) compared to those using the netzero system.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

@Darielle
I think what they are saying is that you shouldn't win anything at all, ever, because it all belongs to them. (?)

I'm not sure who "they" are but if your response is aimed at my POV then consider this a response to it.
All players get kp back in some way whether its through kp swaps, winning chests or netzero. Only the amount is disputed.
Most of my fellowships on this server use a wonder program that seldom leaves chests for anyone but I've opted to not participate as I prefer to fill my AW when I want rather than wait. I most often give my chests away for 1kp each. So no, I don't think it's a fair estimation to assume people want the chests because they "belong" to them.

 

[Lelanya]

I'm going to say this because you've made me realize that my means of thanking my neighbors who aren't within my reach for offering NH when they help me out w/ trades might be detrimental to your established systems of KP exchange. It's never been my intent to deprive anyone or push someone else out of a reward on an AW. But I have donated in 5 KP increments to AWs in thanks to my neighbors.

So, if you happen to see my name on one of your FS' AW donations and I'm messing up your Net Zero system, please let me know - and do tell me whose AW it was so I don't continue to donate to that neighbor.

None of my neighbors have complained (and, yes, I will even leave it if there's no reward chest to be had), but all this talk of "interlopers" and the way you've all seemed very angry about someone not in the FS donating to an AW makes me unsure how I'm to show my neighbors I'm thankful for their help. I haven't discovered them yet on the map to offer NH and I can't meet their 75/100/150k trade amounts yet. Saying "Thank You!" just seems so trite when I can actually donate KP and help them out. (Yes, I put trades up for the good exchanges they want, I just can't meet their amounts. So sometimes the one who offered scrolls for silk doesn't see my answering trade in a lower amount before it gets taken by someone else.)

Yes you have hit a thorny issue. Just this week one of my fellows was angrily soliciting 100 KP swaps to push off a 'cheeky' stranger. Upon investigation it was a player 5 rings to the south of him, in late chapter 2; he had gone 'all in' and scraped together 77 points to try and snag a chest and some Monastery rune shards. Aww come on folks, have a heart. The little guy was trying so hard.

 

[ajqtrz]

I too am curious about KP Swaps. I kept a pretty good record of participants when we tried it (several times) and found, at best, only 1/3 of our players consistently used them. Most of the time it appeared the same 5-6 people kept trading, which was okay, but when we switched to Shout Outs we got about 80% participation, and still do.

I'm wondering how many of your players participate and how many don't? And are certain sizes of KP swaps more popular? AND, does the size of the player mean they focus on a particular size of KP Swap?

Perhaps, it wasn't, in my case, the idea of KP swap threads that is the problem but how they were implimented.

Finally, a comment on why Shout Outs work for us -- we aren't concerned with the actual "balance" between players and how much they make or lose, but in getting the overall fellowship average cost of upgrading AW's down. So claiming all the chests we can for our selves means the average fs cost of AW's is lowered, and that's our whole goal rather than "profit" for any particular player or each individual player. It's a fellowship focused strategy more than an indivicual player tactic.

AJ