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    Your Elvenar Team

Why KP Swap Threads ain't the best use of Fellowship KP

NightshadeCS

Well-Known Member
I think we really do a combination of swap threads and shout-outs. We have the threads, and yes, it is generally the same group of people all the time. One-third of the FS is probably a good estimate. then, when we are getting close to finishing a wonder, we let people know if there are chests left and they can snag those for a profit.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
I'm wondering how many of your players participate and how many don't? And are certain sizes of KP swaps more popular? AND, does the size of the player mean they focus on a particular size of KP Swap?
All three of my FS follow the pattern @NightshadeCS outlined, a mix of KP swap threads and shout outs to claim remainders. I think participation is around 1/3 consistently with big boosting use to the 10kp thread during the FA.
In one of my FS the people using the swaps ask for a 100kp swap thread. Once it went online participation on the other swaps seemed to increase as people with higher level wonders started swapping 100 kp(but that is not a thread you want to let die on anybody).
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
Yes you have hit a thorny issue. Just this week one of my fellows was angrily soliciting 100 KP swaps to push off a 'cheeky' stranger. Upon investigation it was a player 5 rings to the south of him, in late chapter 2; he had gone 'all in' and scraped together 77 points to try and snag a chest and some Monastery rune shards. Aww come on folks, have a heart. The little guy was trying so hard.
Goodness. If I had seen that I would have made sure to put all of the rest of the kp in myself, to make sure no one kicked him off and he could get his chest. I'd want him to have a good experience just starting out in Elvenar. Some people are so short-sighted. If you dishearten all the newbies, you ruin the game for yourself, too. Inno makes most of its money on newbies, and they aren't a charity. :(
 

DeletedUser27062

Guest
we do kp threads and top offs and everyone makes a profit, several have tried that worlds wide swap thing but it is a hot mess with people coming and going, we will bump off or down to a kp loss anyone no one knows, but leave anyone the member wants who is a "good neighbor" just everyone helping each other with a bit of easy math, 3kp gets 5kp, 8 gets 10kp 10 kp gets 15 etc etc we prefer members make a bit of profit for their contributions from the wonders rewards chests, after all it's a reward chest not a you must put in 5 to get 5 chest .. that's not a reward, i can't imagine taking the time to run a spreadsheet for wonders chests where's the fun in that ? and if the math goes wonky or an overlap happens we go in chat say oops and plop some kp on them .. then for the ones who get caught "forgetting" to pay back on threads i'm pretty sure we all have the same remedy for that lol

That's why I love netzero, no need for anything complicated. No spreadsheets, no threads, no mess, no fuss. Just fast cheap leveling of AW.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
all this talk of "interlopers" and the way you've all seemed very angry about someone not in the FS donating to an AW makes me unsure how I'm to show my neighbors I'm thankful for their help.
To be clear since I'm the one who used "interlopers" there's no "anger" for outside FS generosity. When someone notices a player self-donating and continually grabs last-minute chests for a profit, that's what I'm talking about --and still no anger from me.
It's a legit strategy and anyone willing to put that effort into scoring KP off of unwary players has earned it.
My only argument against the net zero system is that I dont think the amount assigned to the color coded kp is common knowledge.
Should be a simple enough thing to teach.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
I disagree...I actually think this IS one of the biggest risks to the system. You only get your investment back if the person finishes leveling their AW in the same manner, which isn't guaranteed.

If someone leaves the fellowship for another group, they're likely going to start using that group's swap system. If that group uses the swap threads (which is likely - they're very popular) then that person could receive swap exchanges *on top of* the original net zero donations. Worst case, that means 80% of the AW could be filled by other people, pushing the original donors down in the chest rewards.
I dunno, having your FS grab all of your reward chests and then bailing on them before filling it, and then getting your new FS to finish it off in order to bump out the players from your old FS seems... pretty sleazy.
Could happen of course, but honestly? If some KP chests are the price of losing such a person, it's probably worth it ;)
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
big long giant argument against KP swaps... can be summed up as "the lazy should get equal rune shards".
No thanks.
If someone is too lazy to enter in to a KP swap, they really don't deserve an equal reward.
If only tournaments followed that rule too.
0/3

For one, rune shards aren't the point, and most players who are consistently dumping 100s of KPs every week into an AW system couldn't care less about runes since they have far more than they could possibly use.
rune shard.png
Secondly, everyone getting the same benefit for the same effort isn't "laziness", it's fairness.
Finally, tournament rewards are mostly based on how much you put in both because that's what gets you into a high achieving FS (or not) and because most rewards come from individual gains, not FS rewards.
 
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Kekune

Well-Known Member
I dunno, having your FS grab all of your reward chests and then bailing on them before filling it, and then getting your new FS to finish it off in order to bump out the players from your old FS seems... pretty sleazy.
Sleazy is a strong word - the situation I'm imagining isn't intentional. I think a lot of players simply don't put that much thought into how the math works for the leveling system they're using. They use whatever system is presented to them by the group, or they opt out and self-level. And I doubt most players would think about how their departure from a group affects the swap system and AWs in progress.

So if a person changes groups, it wouldn't be that unrealistic to think that at least sometimes, that's gonna mess up the swap. You can put in safeguards to reduce the risk, and it's one I'm totally willing to live with as the price of a whole lot of convenience. But it's not fair to people evaluating these ideas to pretend that there's no such risk.
 

mucksterme

Oh Wise One
On the people talking about low participation or dying swap threads.
As in so many other parts of the game. There are just things you will not be able to do if your FS sucks.

Our swap threads run from 5kp - 50kp.
They are each restarted about once a week to keep them from getting too bulky.

As far as benefitting "big guys"
Keep in mind that where you might be needing 450kp for your AW, a big guy is looking for 1150.

With "interlopers."
They never bothered me. If someone wants to put 1kp on my AW why should I care?
If they put 73kp on there because they are trying to collect shards, more power to them.
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
So if a person changes groups, it wouldn't be that unrealistic to think that at least sometimes, that's gonna mess up the swap. You can put in safeguards to reduce the risk, and it's one I'm totally willing to live with as the price of a whole lot of convenience. But it's not fair to people evaluating these ideas to pretend that there's no such risk.
It can complicate things, true. But there are work arounds. I currently have 2 AWs in need of leveling but with players from old fellowships claiming chests. There are a couple chests left in each, so when it's just about ready to upgrade, I'll fill it in on the spreadsheet using "friend" in the claimed chests so everyone in my current fellowship knows to leave them there.
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
In case anyone is in doubt of my thoughts on this (because I am being a bit of a devil's advocate, here) I like the net zero system so much that I would never willingly go back to swap threads. I find the risks and issues, such as they are, to be minimal and manageable. They are certainly no worse than the issues I experienced in the threads, and it's much less time consuming.

And if you say the threads aren't time consuming...trying to convert 100 tourney kp into 10 FA wonder badges while donating in the swap threads was enough to make me bang my head against the wall. I know that's worst- case... but having experienced that same process with net zero, it's night and day.
 

CrusaderMichael

Active Member
0/3

For one, rune shards aren't the point, and most players who are consistently dumping 100s of KPs every week into an AW system couldn't care less about runes since they have far more than they could possibly use.
Secondly, everyone getting the same benefit for the same effort isn't "laziness", it's fairness.
Finally, tournament rewards are mostly based on how much you put in both because that's what gets you into a high achieving FS (or not) and because most rewards come from individual gains, not FS rewards.

0/3

1) rune shards are the point for most people... otherwise you'd just put the KP in to your own stupid wonders. It's only meaningless to the people who, say for instance, have lived in Elvenar in to the later years of their lives and can say "see... see.... looky". Maybe they have a badge for that... "Played Elvenar Till They reached Age 80" badge. "See... see.... Looky"
2) laziness was 100% on point but since you obviously didn't read previous comments I figure why bother explaining something to a person who just wants to complain... when he's not making "ideas" for 5 years of his life in a game that thankfully has barely ever, if ever, accepted his ideas in to the game.
3) Tournament rewards being "mostly" (insert blah blah) as you said, are still welfare to the again, lazy. Tournament rewards should be similar to spire... too bad for the lazy (or maybe they just had other things to do that week besides negotiate fantasy goods). No free phones for the lazy.

and 4)... so many people try to reinvent the wheel with the most useless notions, such as this AW thread. Or, say, some anti artifact waiting but wait anyway thread. They can have super long voting times as if it matters at all too... keep them feeling useful. Or defend the dull in a game. Or the welfare blah in a game. Etc.

It's true... Yes Men exist in every game. They have the same personalities. The same types of cliques. And the same argumentative natures. Some even get all angry and scream to the world how they will ignore someone.

Part of why gaming forums are so fun :)

For me anyway.... till inevitably, i move on.

Watching lazy people get handouts never was a thing for me... and sadly this game has a LOT of that, hence it taking me like 9 fellowships to finally find one that didn't make me cringe.

(knocks on my rosewood desk)
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
To be clear since I'm the one who used "interlopers" there's no "anger" for outside FS generosity. When someone notices a player self-donating and continually grabs last-minute chests for a profit, that's what I'm talking about --and still no anger from me.
It's a legit strategy and anyone willing to put that effort into scoring KP off of unwary players has earned it.

Should be a simple enough thing to teach.

It's interesting but language does sometimes imply emotional response. Using "interlopers," while you have clarified your emotional response to the word, is usually signals a dislike. Same for "unwary." Using negatively slanted language to describe anything implies dislike/judgement/condemnation and thus, and emotional response. "Anger," may be too strong a word, but "irritation?," "disapointment?" Since you used the two words, I'm wondering how you actually feel about "interlopers" taking advantage of the "unwary?" You think it's a good thing? A neutral thing? A bad thing? Hard to tell with the disclaimers and the language used.

0/3

1) rune shards are the point for most people... otherwise you'd just put the KP in to your own stupid wonders.
2) laziness was 100% on point .......

and

It's true... Yes Men exist in every game. They have the same personalities. The same types of cliques. And the same argumentative natures. Some even get all angry and scream to the world how they will ignore someone.

Part of why gaming forums are so fun :)

For me anyway.... till inevitably, i move on.

I'm not convinced "rune shards are the point for most people." Could you provide some indication of what evidence you used to arrive at that conclusion? Personally, at least in my fs, they don't seem to be all that important, for, as Soggy pointed out, our players seem to have a LOT of them and are in little to no need of more.

And, since that's my experience, I can see how lowering the overall costs of AW's upgrades is beneficial to all the fs. Everyone benefits when everyone contributes and lowering AW upgrade costs by 5-15 percent seems a good thing. If you contribute only to your own you get nada rewards and your costs of upgrades are higher. So, perhaps that is the reason for contributing to others AW's rather than just your own.

Working together for shared rewards is just like giving KP to other's AW's. You get more rewards for yourself. Call it selfish generosity if you like, but in a good fellowship you see it's effect in the standing of the fs and in your own growth. A good fs that practices selfish generosity rises in the standings as do all members as they grow. Thus, while some may lag behind and are "relatively" selfish (as measured by the generosity of their peers), they aren't, and can't be, so lazy that it gets noticed. If you get a player putting in 30 each week in the tournament while everyone else is doing their best to get to the 10 chest level, and achieving it, eventually somebody is going to notice and somebody else is going to find a way to move that person on. There is a limit to laziness and most fellowships expect a certain level of effort. So I can see the theoretical aspect of your focus on "laziness," I'm not convinced it's all that relevant or accurate except, perhaps, in rare cases. You do imply, I think (thought I could be wrong), that anyone performing below the level of their fs is doing so because of "laziness," but that is falling into the single motive fallacy. A single motive fallacy is where you ascribe, or imply the total motivation for the action is singular when that is very, very seldom the case. Perhaps they are experiencing RL issues AND using them to be a little more lazy then they would normally be, and thus, even with their best effort their performance might lag. Ascribing all the lag to "laziness" is probably not the whole story.

And, finally, you are probably right that supporting other players who are weaker than you through "handouts" is probably not your "thing." But at least such handouts here usually fall into the category of "selfish generosity," and that should be motive enough for all the but the totally short sighted, don't you think?

AJ

AJ
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
rune shards are the point for most people... otherwise you'd just put the KP in to your own stupid wonders.
Noob comment.
Runes are only hard to come by at the beginning of the game.
Most players in swaps aren't at the beginning of the game.
KP is the motivation for KP swap systems.
No one calls them rune swaps.
a game that thankfully has barely ever, if ever, accepted his ideas in to the game.
Several of my ideas have in fact been implemented.
Remind me, what has your contribution to the game been?
It's true... Yes Men exist in every game. They have the same personalities. The same types of cliques. And the same argumentative natures.
Well, that seems incredibly sexist. I'll admit I did mistakenly assume your gender based on your name. Should have been "crusaderkaren"
Or gender-neutral like the more appropriate Dunning–Kruger.
Also, a little self-awareness might do you some good (pot v. kettle)
it taking me like 9 fellowships to finally find one
Sounds like 8 fellowships dodged a bullet;)
 
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DeletedUser27062

Guest
It's true... Yes Men exist in every game. They have the same personalities. The same types of cliques. And the same argumentative natures. Some even get all angry and scream to the world how they will ignore someone....

.... For me anyway.... till inevitably, i move on.

1) "Yes Men" don't have argumentative natures. By their very definition they are highly agreeable ass-kissers who value 'getting along' over voicing a conflicting opinion.
2) Do you have an ETA on that moving on thing?
 

Katwick

Cartographer
Major revision on 8/31/22 to:
  • Include Runes, at 15KPs, in the contribution price for an Award Chest, for a total of 2/3rds Owner 1/3rd Others for leveling
  • Explain that higher level players can use the Award Chests to convert Single AW Runes into Anywhere AW Instants
  • Encourage folks to be proactive about ASKING for an Award Chest that they need:
    1. ASK the Owner if they can dump in KPs equivalents for 2/3rds of the Resources for the Level, within a day or so
    2. Claim the Top Chest (or the highest available Award Chest) for X Runes@15 + Y Instants@20 + Z Instants@5
    3. Provide the promotional services that will be needed to ensure that the Owner receives a full 1/3 discount
    4. Explain that contributors are to WAIT for a cheaper Award Chest if they can't afford the full price of the current Top Award Chest
(Preliminary Heads-Up for your Fellowship)
BUILD UP YOUR STASH
After the next tournament we will be switching to a NetZero system for leveling our Ancient Wonders.

Short Version: The Owner contributes 2/3rds of the KPs needed to level their OWN Ancient Wonder. An Award Chest is claimed by contributing EXACTLY the amount of KPs (Runes@15 + AW Instants at face value + raw KPs) that will be rewarded as AW Instants when the AW levels.

CONVERSION to an AW NetZero System
Shortly after the completion of the current Tournament, we'll be converting to a NetZero system for helping each other level our Ancient Wonders.

This message thread will address:
- NetZero Basics
- Drama Avoidance
- Some Details
- Implementation

NetZero Basics
1. Each participant (any Fellowship member or Neighbor) who wants to level an Ancient Wonder should ACCUMULATE enough AW KP Instant Spells to cover at least 2/3rds of the research points for their next level.
2. When you are ready to level your AW during the next 24 hours, or when somebody jogs your elbow and VOLUNTEERS to do the advertising in exchange for permission to claim the Top Award Chest, use a Fellowship Message (and perhaps include a few participating Neighbors)
3. In the AW message thread, ANNOUNCE that you will soon be leveling your AW. For example:
-- Katwick's level 17 Golden Abyss will be leveling in a day or so.
-- Reward Chests may now be claimed for: xx 45 35 30 10 5 5, including 3 Runes (The details are helpful, but optional)
4. Other participants may then claim an Award Chest by LOANING the owner EXACTLY the number of points that the chest will award, in less than 24 hours.
-- AW KP Instant Spells, regular KPs, Free Daily Perks, and excess Runes (worth 15 KPs) all count equally.
--- (Note that your own AW will consume around 25 Runes every fifth level.)
-- Smaller cities will have a dearth of Runes, so they'll want the Rune Award Chests
-- Larger cities will have a surfeit of SINGLE AW Runes that they'll want to convert to ANYWHERE AW Instants, so likewise
-- ALWAYS pay the FULL AMOUNT for the Top Chest. If you can't afford it, then wait a few hours for a cheaper chest
5. Whoever claims the final open chest should post that the chests have all been claimed, whereupon the Owner should contribute the remaining 2/3rds of the KPs to level the AW. If there are still unclaimed Runes after 24 hours, and there's no immediate interest, the Owner will cover the missing KPs, and the Runes will be lost.

DRAMA AVOIDANCE
Most of the AW KPs sharing systems are vulnerable to sniping and "math errors," and you will tie up (or even lose) a LOT of KPs if an AW takes a while to level.
- Sniping is an attempt to "steal" a Reward Chest by out-bidding the current holder.
-- An AW with only a few KPs is an unattractive target for outside snipers.
-- A 24 hour window, at less than 40%, isn't very attractive either.
- If someone contributes MORE than they will get back as a reward, and thereby bumps the EXACT contributors and snarls up the NetZero paradigm, the owner has two options:
- 1. Distribute the difference to the EXACT Contributors who were bumped, and absorb the losses.
- 2. Distribute some extra KPs to each of the bumped Contributors, and ask them to juice up their contribution by that same amount. You can thereby bump the sniper out of the running for any of the Reward Chests.

Some Details
An Ancient Wonder has up to eight Reward Chests: that, taken together, contain:
- Instant AW KP Spells and Runes@15 worth 1/3rd of the KPs needed to level the AW
- The Owner of the AW is not eligible to win a chest
- The Reward Chests are fully detailed at https://elvengems.com/ancient-wonders/reward-charts/
- A Google Sheets percentage value workup for a Thermal Spring of Youth is available at Katwick AW Awards
-- The award percentages settle down to approximately 12% 8% 6% 4% 3% 2% 0.5% 0.5% = 36% of the leveling KPs

IMPLEMENTATION
Katwick's Golden Abyss will be our guinea pig. Other folks can jump on the bandwagon once they've accumulated enough AW Instants to cover 2/3rds of the research for their next level, and the idea of leveling in just 24 hours, at a 1/3 discount, starts to look pretty attractive.

Even better, if someone needs an Award Chest, they can volunteer to do all of the promotional work in exchange for claiming the Top Chest.
So they post: "Katwick's Level 17 Golden Abyss has Award Chests for XX 45 35 30 10 5 5, including 3 Runes."
-- Folks can then claim the chests TOP DOWN by paying EXACTLY the value of the chest,
--- Award Chest Value = X Runes@15 + Y AW Instants@20 + Z AW Instants@5
--- The Payment can be any combination of Runes@15, Free (Brown) AW Instants at face value, AW Instants at face value, and raw KPs

An occasional NetZero Status Fellowship Message (plus perhaps a few neighbors) can help things along:
"Katwick's Level 17 Golden Abyss needs more NetZero loans for the remaining 30 10 5 5 Award Chests, with 0 Runes.
The Owner needs 580-145-50=385 out of pocket."

We'll use a pretty soft sell during the conversion, as folks will soon realize that:
- They can level their own AWs in hours, rather than weeks, at a 1/3rd discount, with precise control over their AW Instants and Runes
- Smaller cities are now getting the AW Runes that they desperately need
- Larger cities are converting dedicated AW Runes to frangible AW Instants, at 15 KPs each
- Other AW systems are starving, because the experienced player are ACCUMULATING their AW Instants, and using NetZero.
 
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SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
In the AW message thread, ANNOUNCE that you are now leveling your AW. For example:
  • Katwick's Golden Abyss is now 20% leveled
  • 7 Reward Chests, with 13 AW Runes, are still open
There's no reason to announce the number of chests or runes, that information appears as soon as they open your wonder.
Most participants will try to claim the Reward Chest with the most Runes, but you may also contribute fewer points, in which case the subsequent exact amounts will bump you down to the proper chest.
This makes things very easy to mess up. Far better is to make the rule "always grab the top available chest", otherwise, you have to check the math on every single contributor before making your own contribution. And honestly, since it's just a short-term guaranteed loan there's no downside to grabbing the top one.
Whoever claims the final open chest should post that the chests have all been claimed, whereupon the Owner should contribute the remaining 60%. If there are still unclaimed chests after 24 hours, the Owner simply contributes a few extra KPs, to cover the missing KPs, and the Runes are lost.
24h is pretty tight, I'd consider 48 but it really depends on how many are active daily in the FS.
(There may already be a few early contributions; write down the names and amounts.)
It's easier to just knock them down to a chest where they get appropriate rewards.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, it's worth considering assigning a value to runes. One of the great advantages of Net0 over other systems like KP chains is the fairness in reward distribution. Since runes give you 10 or 15 KP there is a HUGE advantage to being the player who grabs the top chest over the player who grabs the last one, despite putting in the exact same number of clicks/effort.

Personally, I believe that runes should be valued at 15 KP each, without exception. Players who don't want a rune have the option to either simply not contribute to that wonder, or they can unload those runes on the same wonder type later in exchange for KP.
E.G. if you are leveling a wonder like Enars I obviously don't want the 3 runes from the top chest, but I can buy that 75 KP slot for 5+3 of my own Enars runes in exchange for 75 KP and 3 runes back. sweet deal!
 

Katwick

Cartographer
There's no reason to announce the number of chests or runes, that information appears as soon as they open your wonder.
It's pretty common, in our Fellowship, for folks to shout out that they still have a couple of unclaimed chests. The shout-out serves as a heads-up; so that folks WILL go take a look.
Far better is to make the rule "always grab the top available chest"
The reward KPs pattern is pretty obvious, 30 25 20 15 10 5 5, for example, and it's easy to spot a break in the -5 per chest pattern. I do agree that most folks will jump on the highest value chest, but I want to leave room for the bit players. If someone accidently matches a previous EXACT contribution they'll get bumped down anyway, and they've blown 5 points
It's easier to just knock them down to a chest where they get appropriate rewards.
How do you do that?
I believe that runes should be valued at 15 KP each, without exception.
Here we disagree. Approximately Twenty-Five Runes every fifth level is a LOT of Runes. It's seldom that I have too many Runes, unless they're for an AW that I don't intend to build. Most folks have to twiddle their thumbs while they're waiting for enough Runes and Shards.
 
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Katwick

Cartographer
There's no reason to announce the number of chests or runes, that information appears as soon as they open your wonder.

This makes things very easy to mess up. Far better is to make the rule "always grab the top available chest", otherwise, you have to check the math on every single contributor before making your own contribution.
I just had my brilliant idea for this week, and I've modified my template accordingly. Let the Owner do the math!
-- Reward Chests for 40 30 25 xx 10 5 may now be claimed.
 
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