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    Your Elvenar Team

Why KP Swap Threads ain't the best use of Fellowship KP

iamthouth

Tetris Master
We have threads for Perk KP, 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 50, 75, 100 and 150 KP threads, all of which are used actively, and are reset monthly.

The higher numbers allows for runes to be donated if it comes up with a wonder you are not planning to build, or use other earned KP or Ancient KP.

Players may be progressing through research, or may be techlocked and donate their daily build up to the threads.

Some choose to not participate which is fine.

You choose when and to what type of wonder (and which player) to donate.

It doesn't need anyone to manage it or monitor donations.
 

Katwick

Cartographer
Let the Owner do the math!
-- Reward Chests for 40 30 25 xx 10 5 may now be claimed.
I'd even argue that Rune Heavy players should AVOID claiming the top Reward Chests, initially.

Let's stipulate that:
  • You already have 30 Runes of this type
  • You need to retain 25 Runes for your next fifth level
  • You have beaucoup AW Instants
  • The above 40 point chest yields 2 Runes
  • The above 5 point chest yields 0 Runes
You SHOULD, initially, claim the 5 point (smallest) chest, and leave the Rune Reward Chests for the folks who need the Runes.

So several hours have gone by, and you notice (or the Owner posts) that the claims are now at 40 xx xx xx xx xx
  • Cash out SEVEN of your Runes for a total contribution of 7*15+5=95 points
  • This will leave you with the 23+2=25 Runes that you need for your next fifth
  • Post that you ANTED UP, so the claims are now at xx xx xx xx xx 5
  • Everybody is happy
    • Especially the Owner who can now keep 95-40-5=50 extra points
    • You found a beneficial use for your unneeded Runes
    • Nobody got bumped
    • It doesn't much matter if anybody covers the 5 point chest that is now open, but it's likely that somebody (who couldn't afford the Ante Runes) will have tossed in 5 points for the reverse bump, when they see that nobody is claiming the top chest
This is obviously nothing that you're going to try to explain to the newer players, but for the experienced players it's a neat little trick that sets a blowtorch under your Fellowship's AW leveling efforts.

To the point, TOP DOWN may be simple, but it's certainly not optimal if you already have plenty of Runes.
 
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Katwick

Cartographer
IMPLEMENTATION
Katwick's Golden Abyss will be our guinea pig. Other folks can jump on the wagon once they've accumulated enough AW Instants to cover 80% of the research for their next level, and the idea of leveling in just 24 hours, at a 20% discount, starts to look pretty attractive. So they post:

"My Golden Abyss has Reward Chests for 40 30 25 15 10 5, plus 7 Runes."
- If you're Rune Locked, or have fewer than 25 Runes of this type, claim a top Reward Chest by LOANING the Owner the indicated number of points, which you'll get back in 24 hours, plus a couple of Runes.
- If you already have more than 25 Runes of this type, claim a bottom (non-Rune) chest, initially, by LOANING the Owner the indicated amount.
- If you notice (or the Owner posts) that the pattern has gotten to 40 xx xx xx xx xx, then ante up by cashing in your excess Runes, which are suddenly worth 15 KPs each.

We'll use a pretty soft sell during the conversion, as folks will soon realize that:
- They can level their own AWs in hours, rather than weeks, at a 20% discount, with precise control over their AW Instants and Runes
- Smaller cities are now getting the AW Runes that they desperately need, rather than flooding the advanced players
- Other AW systems are starving, because the experienced player are ACCUMULATING their AW instants, and using NetZero.
 
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Killy-

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't expect the top chest to be not claimed if you give it away with extra benefits (aka not including the runes for 15 kps each).
 

MichaelMichael

Active Member
Still, the most active investors gain the biggest rewards, but you have less control over whither you donate your KP, and there's no guarantee that all Reward Chests are unlocked unless you combine it with announcing nearly completed Wonders anyway as a complement - but quite frankly, this makes the whole KP Swap Thread system redundant to begin with.
Poppy cock. We trade AND announce when we are near completing a wonder and frankly we trade the vast MAJORITY of all KP gained outside of research. What you call “redundent”, we call efficient. All the major reward chests go to the fellowship and outsiders are shut out. The cost, relative to inventing into your own AW is ZERO.
 

MichaelMichael

Active Member
One drawback could be that it's difficult for very casual players to know exactly what the rewards are, not knowing the color coding used to convey the amounts of Ancient Knowledge by heart. This can be side-stepped by having the announcer clarify exactly what rewards are at stake, for example: "Golden Abyss almost done, 6 chests (30/20/15/10/10/5) available." Then you close your eyes and pray that your Fellows are sober enough to donate the exact amounts accordingly.
Okay, I Iooked a little deeper on your proposal. First off, I'd likely double the contribution rather than an exact match. I am an interloper. I invest in thousands of AWs. Interlopers need shards sometimes as well. if you are at the exact top number, the advantage to going +1 is high and it defeats the plan. I suppose you could handle that ad hoc, but exact may not be a good choice IMO. In spots, interloper will attack that logic and attack it at the very top. BTW, the most effective interlopers attack when the AW is very near completion when the attack is unassailable. The best plan would be to have the fellowship complete their contributions and then have the AW owner finish it off when the chests are taken in the right order.

Just as an aside, in my fellowship, trade threads make the contributions for the top chests so high that interlopers have little chance. On top of that, we have a policy to crush interlopers even if we lose KPs. The trades are organized, the crushing of interlopers is just done ad hoc as policy. No rules and no overhead. Simple is usually the best policy IMO.

Optimal activity, as an interloper, is to review every AWs above about 500KP and only invest material amounts when the AW is less than 100 KPs from completion. Investing then and at a level that guarantees a profit and/or completes the AW is the best time to invest. The second best time is immediately after an AW is upgraded with 1 KP. Assuming interlopers adopt that policy should be your starting point. Your strategy should be designed to make that fail every time. The way to do that is for the AW owner to be the very last person to put any KPs into their AW. If you do that, the plan looks pretty good.

Another problem I see with the system, is who decides who gets the top chest? Personally, I like shards. Managing who goes where seems like a lot of overhead to make sure it is fair. Some people will feel cheated even if it is first come first serve. Trading seems easier - choose what you want to invest and choose where you want to invest to get your favored shards.
 

David Dragonsage

Active Member
We found that the swap threads failed in our fellowship. Only a limited number of folks participated, and then the threads would typically die after a few weeks.

But our new system is that each day we donate to a different player, going up the list of players from lowest to highest in rank. Once the cycle is complete a new list is made based on the ranks at that time. If ranks change during the cycle that change is ignored. At the end of each day I post on the message board and in Chat to remind people who the next recipient will be tomorrow. The post on the message board allows people who miss a day to catch up when they get back online.

If new people join, they are inserted in the list immediately as a way to celebrate them becoming a part of our fellowship. At the end of the cycle they will then be placed in ranking order like everyone else.

The system works really well since everyone seems to be participating. We call it a Blitz list because once every month each person is swamped with KP like its their birthday. People seem to like the feeling of being given a "special day" every 25 days. And the KP are distributed more equitably than was happening with the swap threads.

We also encourage Shout Outs when a person's AW is close to completion. Some players go through other people's AWs and make Shout Outs on their behalf. The only rule is that the receiving person should be sure that the AW will in fact be completed on the same day, probably meaning that they need a reserve of KP in case there are only a few people online. However, it is rare that the person making the Shout Out will end up needing to top it up, except perhaps for a 2 or 3 KP remnant.

We do not worry about leapfrogging previous donations, provided it is a significant leapfrog, not just 1 or 2 KP over a previous donation. I have not heard of anyone in our group getting upset with significant leapfrogs. I guess its a question of what a group gets used to doing.
 

Alram

Flippers just flip
The Netzero program is the fairest program. The threads are dominated by a few players who push to keep the threads because they are benefiting from them at other players expense. I did think they were fair until I actually started looking a bit closer. Wonder Societies seemed best but a lot of work until the rune changes happened. If the Wonder Society counts the runes, it might be great but most of them ignored the rune changes, and now are dominated by a few players who are pushing the Wonder Society because they benefit at other players expense.
The big question is why isn't everyone doing Netzero? Is it because they aren't interested in fairness?
 

David Dragonsage

Active Member
@David Dragonsage
So a player with a level 6 Mountain Halls gets help and then they get to help a player with a Level 26 Mountain Halls and that's an equal and fair program in your FS?
I didn't say that. I said, "the KP are distributed more equitably than was happening with the swap threads", nothing more. Unlike with the swap threads, everyone is participating and everyone is receiving KPs. The point is that the system works for our fellowship. I know that a more complicated system such as NetZero would not be welcomed in our fellowship.

At least swap threads are no longer dying unanswered, which was annoyingly unfair.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
It's pretty common, in our Fellowship, for folks to shout out that they still have a couple of unclaimed chests. The shout-out serves as a heads-up; so that folks WILL go take a look.
That's what the thread is for:
----------------
Soggy - SSS
Katwick - Needles

Dave - Golden Abyss [DONE]
---------------------
That's it. Nothing else is required,
  • Players log in,
  • they see a notification and if they have a minute
  • they glance at the net0 thread (they often don't even need to open it)
  • they pop open the FS list, got to soggy's SSS and grab the top chest.
  • then over to Katwick's needles and grab that top chest.
Done.

Here we disagree. Approximately Twenty-Five Runes every fifth level is a LOT of Runes. It's seldom that I have too many Runes, unless they're for an AW that I don't intend to build. Most folks have to twiddle their thumbs while they're waiting for enough Runes and Shards.
That's not disagreeing. I too believe that runes have high value: specifically 15 KP each.
Now if you want runes for your 5x upgrades Net0 can help IMMENSELY with that:
Start a second thread called "runes needed" and post like this:
-------​
Katwick: I need Needles runes, please message me​
-------​
Players who are going to level up their Needles soon will then message you saying
"Hey Kat, my needles is going up soon"
so you go to their city and grab the top chest, net0 style, and send them a thank you message
They then post the wonder up for net0

easy-peasy

In fact, if you are aware of any OTHER FS using net0 you can even ask THEM for a top chest, and they'll gladly let you buy the top chest (including 15kp per rune) of their [needles]

The reward KPs pattern is pretty obvious, 30 25 20 15 10 5 5, for example, and it's easy to spot a break in the -5 per chest pattern.
When chests cost well over 100 KP It's not actually easy to see at a glance.

top3 chests.png

If someone contributed 100 KP and then you came to contribute you simply can't tell at a glance which chest they grabbed. You''d need to mouse over the rewards and add them all up until you found a match and then make your own selection. Very inefficient and prone to mistakes.
Much much simpler if when you arrive you know that everyone who got there before you grabbed the top available chest and all you have to do is grab the top remaining chest.

To the point, TOP DOWN may be simple, but it's certainly not optimal if you already have plenty of Runes.
Still totally optimal, because if you "already have plenty of runes" this is the only way for you to spend them, and you will be guaranteed to spend more runes than you get back thus reducing your otherwise useless stash of excess runes.
If you are a player without excessive runes it's still an optimal system, you just need to be the slightest bit pro-active and send out the message I mention above.


The absolute greatest attribute of the Net0 system is perfect fairness, followed VERY closely by its simplicity. You're trying to make it harder than it needs to be.
 
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Katwick

Cartographer
The absolute greatest attribute of the Net0 system is perfect fairness, followed VERY closely by its simplicity. You're trying to make it harder than it needs to be.
We're pretty much in agreement, although for my taste the CLEAR difference between Loans, Swaps, and Gifts is more important.
  • Swap threads are clumsy because your Contributions can ROT for days, if not weeks, in an AW type that you haven't even unlocked
  • In NetZero it's pretty clear that the OWNER is responsible for 80% of the KPs in their OWN AWs, so smaller cities aren't swamped by larger cities that are merely swapping points.
  • The inverse is that the smaller cities can get the Runes that they need, because they won't get bumped off by the Owner.
  • While it's human nature to grab the biggest prize that you can afford, it shouldn't be policy UNLESS you're grabbing the top chest so that you can burn off a bunch of excess Runes, at 15 KPs each (rather than 10), without bumping anybody (you only need about 25 Runes to fill a Wheel), in which case I'd expect to see a significant overpayment for the top chest
While it's a bit quarrelsome, if you already have too many Runes of a type, why ever would you want even more? Claim the largest of the NON-Rune chests. You can always ANTE UP, several hours later, if some of the (larger) Rune Chests haven't been claimed.

Finally, if the top chest has been claimed for say 45 KPs, and you look at the next chest and it's worth 60 KPs, what do you do?? Simplicity be damned! You bump them if you need the Runes, and down the rabbit hole we go.
 
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SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
While it's human nature to grab the biggest prize that you can afford
All prizes are equal. There are no prizes bigger than others, they are all zero, hence the name net0.
BUT grabbing the top one is way easier for everyone (we've tested this a LOT, see attached image)
toptaken.png

Always tops method:
In the top image when you arrive you know that all you have to do is check the 4th chest and contribute accordingly.
Your suggestion:
In the bottom image, you have to decide which chest you should or shouldn't take based on the unknown rune needs/desires of other players, then try and figure out which one was already claimed by the other 3 players by mousing over chests until they line up, and then contribute appropriately.
While it's a bit quarrelsome, if you already have too many Runes of a type, why ever would you want even more? Claim the largest of the NON-Rune chests. You can always ANTE UP, several hours later, if some of the Rune Chests aren't claimed.
You don't. If you have too many [Needles] runes and take the top chest, you don't end up with "more" runes, you end up with fewer.
E.G. Pay 7 and get 3 back. It's a simple and easy way to turn otherwise worthless runes into 15 KP each.

UNLESS you're grabbing the top chest so that you can burn off a bunch of excess Runes, at 15 KPs each (rather than 10), without bumping anybody (you only need about 25 Runes to fill a Wheel), in which case I'd expect to see a significant overpayment for the top chest
What? there is no "overpayment", and why would there be? This is "Net0", not "Lose KP"
The top chest, just like every other chest has a value of (15*runes + 20*bigkp instant +5*smallkp instant) and each chest should always be claimed for exactly that much. Unless you're talking about a rune swap? We do this where advanced players will add [30] extra runes above the cost of the top chest on each others wonders (arranged in advance)

Again, if a player actually needs runes, a much more effective method is to tell your FS that you need them. If no one knows then how can they guess which chest they should take?
There's simply no way to know if the top spot(s) should be held open for anyone, and for how long. Especially given your proposed 24h time limit how are players to know what to do when they log in, open the wonder, and (after figuring out what's going on) see that the top or second from the top chest is open? Do you take it to help out the wonder owner or leave it "just in case" a small player needs/wants the runes (more than you want to convert your excess runes to KP)?
Also, under your 24h system what would happen when the time is up and the top 2 of 7 chests haven't been appropriately paid for? If it was the bottom 2, no biggie, ~10 KP and maybe a rune, but if it's the top 2 chests? In the example above that would be a 95 KP loss for the owner.:oops:


Think of it like trades. Sometimes new tiny cities complain that there are no trades for them to take when they should be the ones posting and asking for trades since other players can't possibly guess what you want.
 
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Katwick

Cartographer
If you have too many [Needles] runes and take the top chest, you don't end up with "more" runes, you end up with fewer.
E.G. Pay 7 and get 3 back. It's a simple and easy way to turn otherwise worthless runes into 15 KP each.
Cool! I'd overlooked the use of your excess Runes to claim FEWER Runes and MORE AW KPs Instants. Discussion can be wonderful!!
The top chest, just like every other chest has a value of (15*runes + 20*bigkp instant +5*smallkp instant) and each chest should always be claimed for exactly that much.
Yeah - with the conversion Magic it makes sense to price out the Runes along with the Instants. The heavy hitters have a very legitimate NEED for the Rune Chests, as they can use them to increase the value of their excess Runes by 50%. Plus the consequent Instants can be used in ANY AW.

Again, if a player actually needs runes, a much more effective method is to tell your FS that you need them. If no one knows then how can they guess which chest they should take?
I have no issue with giving a smaller city a head start. I'd even lean on them to save the Owner some time by posting the announcement that the AW is about to level.
 
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Katwick

Cartographer
Major revision on 8/31/22 to:
  • Include Runes, at 15KPs, in the contribution price for an Award Chest, for a total of 2/3rds Owner 1/3rd Others for leveling
  • Explain that higher level players can use the Award Chests to convert Single AW Runes into Anywhere AW Instants
  • Encourage folks to be proactive about ASKING for an Award Chest that they need:
    1. ASK the Owner if they can dump in KPs equivalents for 2/3rds of the Resources for the Level, within a day or so
    2. Claim the Top Chest (or the highest available Award Chest) for X Runes@15 + Y Instants@20 + Z Instants@5
    3. Provide the promotional services that will be needed to ensure that the Owner receives a full 1/3 discount
    4. Explain that contributors are to WAIT for a cheaper Award Chest if they can't afford the full price of the current Top Award Chest
Please click on the Name in the partial quote to get back to the heavily revised NetZero Template.

There are, by the way, some good mobile text editing tools, at least on a Samsung S22 with Android.
  • Click on the arrow where the words are predicted
  • Click on the ... more stuff button
  • Swipe left snd select Text Editing
  • Select with scroll arrows, Cut, Paste, and plenty of other good stuff
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
the heavily revised NetZero Template.
Looks great. The only note I now have is that we use 2 message threads


1. "Net0 Targets"
Which consists of just the current target if any and any finished targets from the previous post.
E.G.
Katwick - Needles​
Soggy - Golden Abyss​
Dave - Sanctuary [DONE]​
When a player grabs the last chest on one they copy and paste the last message like so:

Katwick - Needles​
Soggy - Golden Abyss[Done]​
Note that the bottom line "Dave - Sanctuary[DONE]" is not copied since posting a completion notice once is enough. Also, by using short 1-line entries you can often save players a few clicks since they can see without even opening the message that there is only 1 open request. This is also why new requests always go on top.

2. Our Net0 Admin thread
Hardly used by comparison, and consists of basically
Soggy: "Hey Katwick you paid 5 KP too much on my needles, what's your next wonder?"
Katwick: "I'll upgrade my SSS next, thanks
Then I'll pop over to your SSS and grab the top chest for Net0 + 5KP to pay you back.

Optionally you can have a third thread that can be used for any rune requests such as
Soggy- "Hey I'm stuck trying to upgrade my needles, if anyone is planning to level theirs next please message me"

I'm sure that there are other ways, but this has worked very well for us.
 
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Katwick

Cartographer
Let's illustrate a "perfect" NetZero group with 8 players, and then show how a similar group could match their performance using Swaps.

To keep everything clear and simple, EVERYBODY has a level 9 Hero's Forge that's at 0/600.
Screenshot_20220909-214328_Chrome.jpg

If you do the NetZero math, with the Runes@15, the positional contribution for the Owner and Award Chests 1-7 is

400+70+45+35+30+10+5+5 = 600

Let's further specify that each of the player earns an average of 50 points per day in Hero's Forge Runes (if any) + AW Instants from the Tournament and what not.

The Owner is on-deck today, tomorrow it will be the Chest 1 guy, with a simple shift each day.

The required Cash-On-Hand, for the entire group at the beginning of the exercise, will be:

400+350+300+250+200+150+100+50 = 1800 in Hero's Forge Runes@15 (if any) + AW Instants (at face value) + raw KPs (if you're TECH locked or desperate.)

Each day each player loans EXACTLY the value of the TOP available chest, in the On-Deck Owner's AW, except for the 50 point guy who has to wait until the 1st chest is already covered.

Once the chests are all covered:
  • The Owner drops in the remaining 400 points
  • Whereupon everybody else gets back exactly the amount that they loaned the Owner.
  • Everybody then earns their daily 50 point from outside sources.
  • Rinse and repeat, once per day, forever.
In real life the AW level sizes will vary, but the requirement will pretty much average out.

A SWAP GROUP can match this performance. "All" they'll need is a 600/8=75 point swap chain that fully cycles every day, and some means of convincing that 8th player that they really should contribute those final 75 points, even though they'll only get a 5 point Award. Good Luck with that.
 
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