With the Fewest Possible Clicks

[DeletedUser61]

There are two extreme ways of playing a City Builder, of which Elvenar is a good example.

1. Maximize (raise) your benefits, as represented by your personal score.
2. Minimize (lower) your costs, as represented by the number of clicks that you'll need, each day.

We have several accomplished advocates for the first playing style, and indeed folks are ranked accordingly. To score well you'll need to build a LOT of boosted 3rd tier manufacturing buildings, and you'll need to negotiate a lot of sectors, wherein your goods will be invaluable.

But there's another way to play a City Builder, that's more akin to "real life" where the objective is to deliver the expected results on time, and within budget. The way to achieve that goal is to aim for just enough, just in time, and to reallocate your resources when you detect excess capacity anywhere in the system.

I prefer using two constraints in my various Elvenar Cities, and if one city gets bogged down at a particular point in its development, then I'll pay extra attention to that area in my subsequent cities. I use two primary criteria:

1. I try to keep up with the tech tree. I always want to have the "right amount" of Coins/Goods/Supplies on hand as soon as I fill up the knowledge bar for each technology. My objective is to "keep up" with the game, but I see no need to push the game by conquering sectors just for the knowledge points nor the expansion slots.
2. I try to do so with as FEW clicks as possible, because I regard mouse clicks as my primary cost metric.

There are several interesting implications:

• The combination Workers + Culture premium buildings are wonderful, except that they don't generate any Coins. You'll still need some housing.
• Supply buildings are expensive, because you have to manually restart them several times per day.
• Training troops EATS supplies.
• Manufacturing buildings also require a lot of clicks, and they eat supplies, but they require 10 times as many coins as supplies. Manufacturing buildings are VERY expensive.
• Upgrades are a mixed lot. Skillfully managing your upgrades is essential, and you must resist the temptation to overwhelm the upgrades because you'll just end up with tons of excess capacity once you've upgraded everything
• Trading is essential. You'll need to trade your boosted goods for the unboosted goods that you'll require.
• Ancient Wonders are, ummm, wonderful. They require very few clicks for the benefits that they provide.
• Visiting folks on the World Map is fairly efficient. You click on the hands, you buff something, you click on the World Icon, and you click on the next city on the World Map. Rinse and Repeat.
• Someday, when there's an easier way to do a fellowship rotation, fellowship visits will be more advantageous. At the moment there are cheaper ways to get Coins and Supplies, even when you're returning visits and garnering the extra supplies.
• One very effective questing approach is to WAIT for an appropriate quest before you explore the World Map, as an example, so that you'll reap the additional quest benefits without incurring any additional costs.
• Declining quests, to run up your Supplies/Coins is a VERY expensive approach.

There are, of course, a host of additional implications, but let's see where the discussion goes.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Minimize (lower) your costs, as represented the number of clicks that you'll need, each day.

This is easy to do. Have a city with one building, or have a city with no buildings. I suppose the latter fits your definition better. If you don't have a city at all you can avoid the pitfalls of:
1. Because you won't have any buildings you won't need any workers or culture.
2. Without any supply buildings you won't need to set any of them ever.
3. Without a barracks, you don't even have to think about training troops.
4. Without any other buildings or any troops you won't need to manufacture anything.
5. Trading will be easy because you won't have any goods and people are always willing to give you nothing for nothing.
6. Ancient wonders will be difficult since you actually need to build these, but that will take clicks, and so I think my no building city will get rid of this mess.
7. If you want, you can still visit all your neighbors, but since you also said that conquering provinces is bad then I guess you wouldn't have that many neighbors to worry about if you don't negotiate all those bothersome sectors.
8. It will be incredibly effective to let your quests just sit there and since you won't be playing, you will always have a quest sitting there.
9. As long as you aren't doing any quests, then you won't have to worry about them.

Frankly, I don't understand a thing you said. If you don't like this game, then why do you play it? Emphasis on the word play. Most of us are playing this game for fun. We enjoy the clicking. I can't really imagine playing a game online without interacting with it. That is the whole point.

If you really want to discuss each point....ummm...ok

You need workers to work in the buildings. If you want to build a city you need inhabitants. If you want happy inhabitants, you need culture. Those are the parameters of this game. It is a city builder game. You build a city. You need supplies in order to build the houses and to train troops. If you don't like fighting you don't have to, but then you will need lots of goods that you need to manufacture in order to negotiate the provinces.

You need to get through the provinces so you have space to build your city. If you don't get through those provinces, you will very shortly and I mean VERY shortly run out of room. I think it takes about a half hour of play from day one before you need more room.

Yes, you need to trade, but you need goods to trade. You need supplies to set those goods up for production. So, even though you find getting supplies tiresome and click intensive, without any of those supplies, you won't have any of the goods you say you need to trade.

As far as Ancient Wonders go, only some of them provide any long term benefits vs the cost to have them. Just like anything in life, there are tradeoffs.

I agree that visiting neighbors is efficient, it is also kind.

Regarding fellowships, I think they are the best feature of this game. You can certainly go it alone if you like. It will be very difficult as you progress and suddenly it costs tons of goods to do things, but if you don't really want to play this game, then it wouldn't matter. If you do want to keep playing, you will find that fellows of the same level as you are on are invaluable to you. Plus, you may meet some amazing people. I know I have.

Waiting for quests is the MOST inefficient way to handle quests. You can either stop playing the game completely and come to a total halt which is obviously an inefficient way to run a city, or you can keep doing your daily tasks, such as collecting rent and supplies and miss out on half the quests because you are still waiting for one of them to complete. Again, skipping out on all those coins and supplies is obviously inefficient.

And that comment about declining quests being expensive....is total nonsense. It doesn't cost you a thing to decline quests. They come back around in a loop. Decline it now, and keep declining and it comes right back up. So, decline one, decline ten, do the ones you can, get yourself back to one that may take a little while. Set a house for upgrading....do 5 quests in the meantime, as long as you set the quest back up for the upgrading the house quest, you get credit for as soon as the house is done upgrading. The only way to be efficient is to click.

Now, of course, if you just want a little game that you come by and take a few actions and then leave, you don't have to build up your city. Everyone can have whatever kind of city they want. That is the beauty. If you don't have any time to play or don't want to spend much time here you don't have to. You can stop your progress any time you want.

 

[DeletedUser61]

1. My tech tree always gets an ample portion of my Knowledge Points. Pacing is a primary consideration. Ideally, I'll finish off each chapter in the tech tree just before the next chapter is released, and in my newer cities I'll try to slowly gain ground.
2. Minimizing CLICKS is my other primary consideration. A well balanced city doesn't need constant infusions of Coins and Supplies.

 

[DeletedUser43]

What are you talking about? This is utter nonsense. Of course you need coins and supplies.

And as far as knowing when the next chapter will be released, it would be decent if you would tell everyone when and what it will be, unless you just want to pretend you knew it all along when it happens.

You can build your cities any way you want. But if your primary consideration is to minimize clicks, then may I suggest backgammon? Because if you think you can progress in the tech tree and build all these wonders you want then you are going to need space and that takes clearing provinces, plus, you need relics to build and upgrade the wonders and that also takes clearing provinces, and to do that you will need either fighters or goods to negotiate, to get the fighters, you will need supplies, and to get the goods you will need factories and to build those factories you will need population. Your goals are completely contradicting your premises.

 

[DeletedUser61]

And yet I still have maxed cities in Beta and Arendyll. Go figure.

I've spent 40 years as a project manager, getting the most out of limited resources. I enjoy doing so.

 

[DeletedUser627]

Bobbykitty - you just received my personal Elvenar Moment of the Year award. Reading your post, I started laughing aloud...louder and louder...infectiously so that my daughter came in and was compelled to begin laughing for no reason. I'm still half choked with laughter. You put me through the looking glass. Bravo!!

Katwijk, perhaps we could preface for those less familiar, that you may have a limited amount of time to give to the game, thus your determined that "click management" is essentially the project driver - yes? perhaps? I believe you play a number of other games which would compete for your time and attention. This is another good reason why we should really agree to encourage Inno to make keyboard shortcuts for every possible Elvenar action. This would be of personal advantage to you, since you aren't inclined to measure/limit your keyboard strokes, only your mouse clicks.

 

[DeletedUser43]

And yet I still have maxed cities in Beta and Arendyll. Go figure.

It is easy to figure this. It isn't true on either world. (I play in both.)

 

[DeletedUser61]

In both worlds I am at the maximum development that can be achieved with the daily allowment of 24 KP per day.

As I have previously indicated, I see no need to conquer sectors just for the knowledge points nor the expansion slots.
And I never spend diamonds where patience and/or skill will achieve the same results.

 

[DeletedUser43]

I see no need to conquer sectors just for the knowledge points nor the expansion slots.

Right. Which is why your cities are not maxed out.

If you want to have some random qualifier on how you want to play, that is your business.

And I never spend diamonds where patience and/or skill will achieve the same results.

Emphasis added. That is another false statement. Your cities demonstrate quite the opposite.
You have a lot of fertility goddesses that can only be obtained through diamonds. I have none. No one needs to purchase fertility goddesses with diamonds. Building houses to their maximum level achieves all the population you need if you bothered to get more expansions, but it takes a lot longer...hence the need for patience and skill. Culture can be had for free if you have more room and had more expansions as well. Will they produce the exact same results, of course not. They are not exactly the same. But, don't start suggesting to anyone that you need to spend diamonds. You just need a lot more time and effort if you don't bother.

You also have upgraded builders on each of your worlds that take diamonds to purchase. You don't need to upgrade your builders either. You can play this game with 2 builders. I have been doing it on Beta since I started. Again, it just takes more patience. I don't care if you have any patience or not, but you are the one who used that pesky little word "never." Be as haughty as you like, but you better have truth to back it up or you just look silly.

To score well you'll need to build a LOT of boosted 3rd tier manufacturing buildings

This also isn't true. Tier one buildings give you the greatest score per space. Nor does it matter if the factories you build are boosted or not for your scoring. (Nonetheless it is never wise to build non boosted factories because of the paltry number of goods they give you).

Look, I don't care how you play. I do care that you are making falsehoods. Players who are new to this game may read your comments and think they have validity. They don't.

 

[DeletedUser61]

No one needs to purchase fertility goddesses with diamonds. Building houses to their maximum level achieves all the population you need if you bothered to get more expansions,

The first point in my original post was that I think the combination population + workers premium buildings are wonderful. I'm quite happy to spend microtransaction diamonds when doing so will help me achieve the results that I'm after.

I'll repeat again.

I think the discipline imposed by minimizing CLICKS makes the game far more interesting. And yes, my keyboard DOES click.

 

[DeletedUser43]

If your keyboard clicks...omg...you must be so over your quota from this conversation.

 

[Jixel]

To score well you'll need to build a LOT of boosted 3rd tier manufacturing buildings, and you'll need to negotiate a lot of sectors, wherein your goods will be invaluable.

This also isn't true. Tier one buildings give you the greatest score per space. Nor does it matter if the factories you build are boosted or not for your scoring. (Nonetheless it is never wise to build non boosted factories because of the paltry number of goods they give you).

... ok, this is nit-picking, but actually ... armories give the greatest score per square, once your "average culture per square" increases above a certain amount.
And according to my calculations, at least, Tier 3 > Tier 2 > Tier 1 in terms of score-per-square, once you factor in:
- residences to support the manufactories
- culture to support the manufactories
- culture to support the residences which support the manufactories.

Above 70-culture-per-square (average), Armories edge ahead of everything that you can build multiples of (Barracks and Main Hall are good, but only one of each).

/end-nitpick



(... boy, I hope I didn't mess up the spreadsheet, otherwise this will be an embarrassing contribution to this discussion )

 

[DeletedUser61]

I did some poking around, in us1 Arendyll, to determine how well my score of 38,000 ish compares with other folks at the same level. In particular, I was interested in how my tech tree advancement compared to other folks who prefer to play a cost-conscious game.

A Copper Foundry serves nicely as a visual indicator that a city has progressed past the mid-point of the chapter VI tech tree. I would invite you to look at the following us1 Arendyll cities:

• Katwijk
• lop120
• ceres
• Penn
• Dass
• demeered
• Mercadia

Approximately a third of the cities at my level already have a Copper Foundry, so the folks who are playing a cost-conscious game, which is how you minimize your clicks, are getting it done with a third of the resources that are being used by the folks who are maximizing their benefits, as indicated by their personal scores.

Cost Conscious is a very popular playing style for Game Builders.

While I was looking at the cities anyway, I was also eyeballing the number of expansions; my 58 explored provinces, and thereby 13 Provincial Expansions, seems to be pretty typical. In digging for the relationship between provinces and expansions I came across a rather amazing table at https://en.wiki.elvenar.com/index.php?title=Expansions#Province_Expansions_Overview. The table runs all the way up to 64 Provincial Expansions ("for now"), which would require exploring 500 provinces.

We're by no means done with exploring the world map.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Speak all you want about your own city, but it isn't ok to call out other players.

As far as cost-conscious if you want to compare, then compare yourself to me. I have never purchased any diamonds in this game, so you don't get more cost-conscious than that. I started the same time you did in this world. My city is much larger and much more advanced. I produce exactly the number of goods and supplies and coins that I need each day.


If you want to make up some standard where "clicking" is what you avoid, I already told you, tear down all your houses and you will have no clicks to make each day. I don't know if you think you are making sense, but you aren't. All you are saying is if you don't play much, or if you have a smaller city it will take less resources than a bigger city. No kidding. That isn't some sort of revelation.

But, have fun making up whatever criteria you want to suit yourself. This is a game and any way you play that gives you enjoyment is all that matters.

 

[DeletedUser61]

I have never purchased any diamonds in this game, so you don't get more cost-conscious than that. I started the same time you did in this world.

Cost Consciousness has very little to do with the use of microtransaction diamonds. Rather, it's about efficient use of limited resources and putting together a nicely balanced city that doesn't require a lot of attention to keep it from stalling.

 

[DeletedUser43]

it's about efficient use of limited resources

Trust me, my finances are extremely limited resources.

 

[DeletedUser627]

Summarized opinion

If a player wants to spend a little money and a little time, he could study Katwijk's city.

If a player wants to spend zero money and more time, he could study Bobbykitty's city.

If a player has latent frustrations in a non-PvP environment, he could alleviate these tensions by making passive-aggressive forum posts that promote his own playing style at the expense of anyone else's approach. Sort of "live and help die"...This kind of player might even flatter the developers with ingratiating statements and denigrate players who disagree with developers.

If a player is well-suited to the non-PvP environment here, he could make recommendations based on his own experiences while advocating for all players. "Live and help live".