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    Your Elvenar Team

Worlds Becoming Unbalanced on Goods Production

Galdrias

New Member
It appears to me that the worlds have become unbalanced as far as the boosted goods players produce. More specifically, it appears that most players in my worlds have the same boosts making it nearly impossible to acquire the other goods. It is clear that far too many players in my worlds (especially in Khelonaar) have dust and cosmic bismuth boosts (at the moment, of 152 pages of trades, 85 of them are offering the cosmic bismuth and everyone is looking for shrooms). I suspect the unbalance is a result of players dropping out of the game. I don't know if there is a solution to the problem, but it has become very frustrating given it is impossible to progress if the needed goods can't be acquired through trading. For non-sentient goods, at least the wholesaler is an option, albeit an expensive one, but for sentient goods, there really are no options when the ratio for trading with the wholesaler, the decay rate, and the need for divine seeds to produce sentient goods is factored in. Anyone else notice the same phenomenon?
 

Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper
This is a complex issue.
Yes, in part this stems from marble producers quitting the game early on, and planks to a lesser degree as well.
Then, there are planned imbalances in each realm, that do get more pronounced as the cities advance in development. This creates pressure to 'solve' the problem; it is a puzzle and the devs want us to create solutions. For example, you might start a second city, but this leads to abandoned cities: ones started on the wrong server, that turn out to have the wrong boosts when you arrive over on K. But this artificially inflates the user numbers...
If we ask the devs to program something in to compensate then we get as end result the Moonstone Library set, that gives scrolls, tree gum and bismuth. And that leads to more trades for these items.
 

TomatoeHu

Well-Known Member
Abandoned cities are out of control. Gum, Bismuth and Scrolls are out of control. How about a computer bot that eats the 2 star trades that don't get taken every 3 days, that would at least be something. Anything done about this would be greatly appreciated. I am a scroll player and haven't produced a single factory scroll in a year? since Teleport spells came out. cant move any scrolls on Winyandor, Khelonaar and Ceravyn, cant speak for other world traders but we need to vacuum those goods out of the system.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Abandoned cities are out of control. Gum, Bismuth and Scrolls are out of control. How about a computer bot that eats the 2 star trades that don't get taken every 3 days, that would at least be something. Anything done about this would be greatly appreciated. I am a scroll player and haven't produced a single factory scroll in a year? since Teleport spells came out. cant move any scrolls on Winyandor, Khelonaar and Ceravyn, cant speak for other world traders but we need to vacuum those goods out of the system.
A bot to eat some of those 2 star trades is a good idea.

But, I think more level 30 bees are needed. In chapter 17 you can trade 41k each for silk and crystal per day, balanced trade. You also get 5 times as much goods from coin and supplies as without a bee, so making just one purchase per day with coin and supplies would be another 82k each of silk and crystal.

As far as I'm concerned, a level 30 bee should be a top priority for scroll boosted players.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
Part of the problem is due to the inverse trader fee....
It hurts those that can't pay it the most - New Players
And rewards those who can the most - Old Players.

New players won't have astrnomical AWs to reduce the fee, and have very few
"discovered , non fee" trading partners, whereas Old - high CH players don't
even need usually those discounts, having most/all of thier max discovered cities.

While this isn't the entire problem, its a major one.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
...and then there's the added junk shot of *needing* a Lv30 Bee then fething you over a barrel in your tournament + spire play, due to the asinine formula they've used to calculate squad sizes/negotiation fees. :mad:

Seems like the devs are doing everything they can to drive every single player to quit!
 

T6583

Well-Known Member
I agree that there is definitely a problem. In Beta they’re taking the moonstone library set out of the spire which may help. I’m not boosted in scrolls and I have over 10 million of them and it seems like everyone is just giving them away. I’m boosted in Bismuth and it sucks to consistently have to offer a pretty nice premium just to try to get the goods I need (to be fair I’m ok with offering a 5-10% premium as a way to say thank you) to complete techs and upgrades. I’ve even stocked my FS with shrooms producers and they’re having difficulty keeping up with the demands. Personally to me it feels like the research requires a lot more Shrooms and Soap than it does Bismuth which might also be contributing to the problem. Maybe the developers need to take a look at rebalancing some of the goods needed for different techs.
 

ajqtrz

Chef
Personally, I like the imbalance. My boosts are steel, scrolls, and dust so I have gum, velvet and bismuth. And I produce a lot of these. Then I use the trader to trade them at their market value it works just fine for me. Instead thinking I have to sell my scrolls "unfairly" I use the measure of what it goes for -- market value -- and seldom do my scrolls sit for more than a few hours. After all, not EVERYBODY has scrolls in abundance.

So adjust to the market and forget about what the game wants you to think is a "fair" trade and you'll be able to use the imbalance to profit. Sometimes it is all about attitude and your beliefs about how you are being treated.

AJ
 

T6583

Well-Known Member
@ajqtrz forgive me as I am horrible at economics / trade markets or whatever it is called but how would I determine how something that is in abundance and is hard for most people to trade can be adjusted to a fair market value based on the market and be able to make a profit? How does one even go about determining what they would consider fair market value? Because to me it seems like if I’m adjusting my bismuth to $25K asking for $20K of Shrooms or Soap I’m in no way making a profit. I’m not evening breaking even. Are you doing cross trades? I’d be happy just to be breaking even. I’m all for helping née players out that need help and I have more than enough base goods but sentient goods, especially S3 are becoming a struggle / problem in order to progress in the game.
 

farsticks2

Member
I'm a marble/crystal/elixir, platinum/ink/shrooms, so I'm trading with relative ease in sentient, but there's a steel/silk shortage in my area of the map in Khelonaar. I also recommend the trader guild for standard goods, though mine is level 7, and level 30 is years away.
 

ajqtrz

Chef
@ajqtrz forgive me as I am horrible at economics / trade markets or whatever it is called but how would I determine how something that is in abundance and is hard for most people to trade can be adjusted to a fair market value based on the market and be able to make a profit? How does one even go about determining what they would consider fair market value? Because to me it seems like if I’m adjusting my bismuth to $25K asking for $20K of Shrooms or Soap I’m in no way making a profit. I’m not evening breaking even. Are you doing cross trades? I’d be happy just to be breaking even. I’m all for helping née players out that need help and I have more than enough base goods but sentient goods, especially S3 are becoming a struggle / problem in order to progress in the game.

Two things people forget and thus miss the opportunities. First, you boosted goods are cheaper to produce for you than for about 2/3 of the rest of the players. Second, most people count on the star system to measure if a trade is fair, unfair, or a good deal. This produces an opportunity to profit.

First, though, "profit" does not mean for every scroll you use to purchase silk or crystal you are going to get more silk or crystal than scrolls you offer. Profit is not about a 1:1 ratio because the supply is not 1:1. Right now the supply of scrolls is 1.2 to 1 for crystal and a bit more for silk. Thus, a properly balanced trade would be 1200 scrolls for 1000 crystal. That's the market value because of the surplus of scrolls.

Now if that's true, and I'll bet it's pretty accurate, if you trade 1100 scrolls for 1000 crystal you are profiting. You are receiving for your scrolls more than the current fair market value. And since you are also producing them for a lot less than silk or crystal, you are profiting in that manner also. If I spend X dollars to feed a cow each year but one year somebody drops a load of feed off for nothing, I'm profiting more because my costs are less. In any case you can measure profit by using the artificial 1:1 ratio (this is called a controlled price) or you can measure it by if your city is gaining in silk and crystal even if you sell only scrolls.

So I put up 3-star trades of scrolls for crystal or silk at 10% bonus. 110 scrolls for 100 crystal or silk. I usually have to wait about 2-4 hours before they are gone. I keep doing this about once every other day (110k scrolls for 100k of silk or crystal), and about 5-7 each time and within a day my crystal and silk go up. I'm at over 2 million in each now and still have 4 million of scrolls.

This is how it works with scrolls and I'm doing the same thing with Bismuth. If I didn't have to supply my fs with soap and shrooms I'd be a very rich player. I have about 150k of silk and shrooms now and I expect to see it back up to 200k of each in the next day or so. Same method and same results.

That's how it works for me and how I actually profit.

AJ
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Personally, I like the imbalance. My boosts are steel, scrolls, and dust so I have gum, velvet and bismuth. And I produce a lot of these. Then I use the trader to trade them at their market value it works just fine for me.
I find that...strange.
I mean would you choose this situation instead of having the other boosts and being able to pick up trades at a 20% discount instead of a 20% premium? Or 0.8:1 vs 1.2:1 or however you'd like to phrase it.
I get that you are making the best of a bad situation, and good for you, but I don't believe that makes it a good situation, and I can't quite understand why you would "like" it.
Unless it's a greater challenge thing? I mean you could build non-boosted factories too if you wanted that:p
 

MichaelMichael

Active Member
Two things people forget and thus miss the opportunities. First, you boosted goods are cheaper to produce for you than for about 2/3 of the rest of the players. Second, most people count on the star system to measure if a trade is fair, unfair, or a good deal. This produces an opportunity to profit.

First, though, "profit" does not mean for every scroll you use to purchase silk or crystal you are going to get more silk or crystal than scrolls you offer. Profit is not about a 1:1 ratio because the supply is not 1:1. Right now the supply of scrolls is 1.2 to 1 for crystal and a bit more for silk. Thus, a properly balanced trade would be 1200 scrolls for 1000 crystal. That's the market value because of the surplus of scrolls.

Now if that's true, and I'll bet it's pretty accurate, if you trade 1100 scrolls for 1000 crystal you are profiting. You are receiving for your scrolls more than the current fair market value. And since you are also producing them for a lot less than silk or crystal, you are profiting in that manner also. If I spend X dollars to feed a cow each year but one year somebody drops a load of feed off for nothing, I'm profiting more because my costs are less. In any case you can measure profit by using the artificial 1:1 ratio (this is called a controlled price) or you can measure it by if your city is gaining in silk and crystal even if you sell only scrolls.

So I put up 3-star trades of scrolls for crystal or silk at 10% bonus. 110 scrolls for 100 crystal or silk. I usually have to wait about 2-4 hours before they are gone. I keep doing this about once every other day (110k scrolls for 100k of silk or crystal), and about 5-7 each time and within a day my crystal and silk go up. I'm at over 2 million in each now and still have 4 million of scrolls.

This is how it works with scrolls and I'm doing the same thing with Bismuth. If I didn't have to supply my fs with soap and shrooms I'd be a very rich player. I have about 150k of silk and shrooms now and I expect to see it back up to 200k of each in the next day or so. Same method and same results.

That's how it works for me and how I actually profit.

AJ
Some people are just bull headed. I trade all day every day and have surpluses of all sentient goods. On my world offering 10:9 or 9:10 depending on the good closes rapidly for all goods. This fascination that 2 stars is by definition “fair” and that “market” prices when the are 1 star is cheating or evil is just idiocy. Some people just do not believe in free markets and think the government or game designers should set all prices. Boohoo, boohoo, oh woe is me. My sentient boost are Moonstone, Obsidian, and Bismouth. Current holdings includeover 1 million platinum, 500k Ink and 400k each Shrooms and Soap. My boosts suck so I don’t produce any of them because they all are in excess supply. I do trade the all at one star. Otherwise no one would take them. I also trade the more valuable goods at 3 star at a small net profit. It is a rare player that realizes that trading Bismouth at 10:9 is fair, but those that do never have a shortage either shrooms or soap. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink.
 

MichaelMichael

Active Member
There is a problem with goods and that is a design problem. It is the moonstone set. It should have produced goods +1 or +2. Instead it flooded the market with Scrolls and to a lesser extent Bismuth an Gum. All of which are in gross excess. I’d recommend a hard change to relative goods (ie +1 would mean I get soap instead of Bismuth, which I can produce, from my moonstone gate). Market prices will still prevail after the change but prices will be closer to par
 

ajqtrz

Chef
I find that...strange.
I mean would you choose this situation instead of having the other boosts and being able to pick up trades at a 20% discount instead of a 20% premium? Or 0.8:1 vs 1.2:1 or however you'd like to phrase it.
I get that you are making the best of a bad situation, and good for you, but I don't believe that makes it a good situation, and I can't quite understand why you would "like" it.
Unless it's a greater challenge thing? I mean you could build non-boosted factories too if you wanted that:p

"Like" is, of course, relative. I'd like it if somebody, anybody, would give me a million marble for a single steel. Or give me a million shrooms for 10 bismuth. Like I said, "like" is relative. But, as most informed market players say, the only bad market is one in which all things are equal -- meaning no trading is being done because the value of all things is 1:1 and nobody has a need. Stable markets make little profit. So there is no "bad situation" unless nobody wants anything. And I'd rather have this than the actual perfectly balanced and stable 1:1 situation the 2-star measure declares fair.

AJ
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
Some people are just bull headed.
I couldn't agree more! The ones who continue to insist on applying capital market principles to a co-op amaze me at their ability to ignore this. The co-op members here have zero choice in what goods it is most beneficial for them to produce and trade. That is not the case in free-market capital trade systems, so those principles don't apply. Some people are only happy if they are profiting at the expense of others and will use any argument they can think of to justify that behavior. Whether that argument is applicable in the existing system is irrelevant to them.
 

T6583

Well-Known Member
@ajqtrz I get what you’re saying but I have to respectfully disagree as I’m not sure the the issue with certain good shortages like were are currently experiencing was ever intended to be a puzzle that players had to solve and that economy such as the one you are describing was to become such a huge part of the game. I’m already offering my trades as mentioned but I feel slighted a bit by constantly having to do that when players who have lucked out with better boosts do not as I feel I’m putting in just as much effort and resources to produce said goods. I didn’t choose the boosts I have nor can I change them to something that could be more beneficial to me and my FS. It also rubs me the wrong way a bit when there are some players who are lucky enough to be boosted in those rare goods who are posting 0 and 1 star trades. And not just asking for 5-10% more than offering, asking for 20-50% more than offering. That feels predatory to me. I avoid those trades unless it’s an accidental clicks and some players are so bad that even if they’re offering an equal trade for something that isn’t rare I won’t even consider taking it. Inno is constantly talking about balancing the game and yet they’re doing nothing (or seems to be doing nothing) to fix the some of the balancing issues such as the goods imbalances a lot of players are complaining about. I’m kinda worried about what will happen starting in Ch. 18 with the rumored introduction of new boosted goods if sentient goods are this bad now after being around for 6 chapters now and the number of larger cities that have left recently due to certain changes made to the game.
 
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