Is culture/pop buildings worth it?

[DeepTerminal]

I've seen a lot of people say that event buildings that give you both culture and population are really good. Can anyone explain to me why?

Is it because they don't require culture to build? The population per tile they give is so much fewer than residence buildings, I don't really see why they would be preferred.

Also, if I want to have culture/pop buildings, which should I prioritize? Should I get the ones that give me most population per tile, or most culture per tile?

Edit: I have another noob question: how useful are the culture+supplies/t3 goods/mana/seeds buildings? I accidentally got Black Lotus (the daily prize) today and wasn't sure how useful it is.

Thanks!

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

The population per tile they give is so much fewer than residence buildings, I don't really see why they would be preferred.

Really? You clearly looked at the wrong culture/pop buildings. You can go to https://www.elvenarchitect.com/buildings/compare/population/ and see per tile pop. You will notice that regular residences are clearly not the most efficient. Venar's Rocks III from the Halflings chapter are almost on par with L32 residences, and those are only available in Constructs. And this doesn't even account for the massive culture that these hybrids provide.

Black Lotus is one of the best seeds producers, but this only matters if you're in Halflings and beyond. Before that, I assume that the lotus is pretty useless.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

The further you get into the chapters, the better these buildings will get and the more value they will hold for you. For example, in two days the daily prize will be a 4x4 pop/culture building called the Water Bubble Resort. For me, at the end of chapter 14, it is worth 4800 pop and 6400 culture. A maxed out chapter 14 residence is 5x3 and gives 3900 pop. It also uses about 1600 culture, rather than giving me culture.

Also, a lot of the pop/culture event buildings aren't really that good until you are at least in chapter 9 when you get them. The Water Bubble Resort is only 930 pop for a chapter 8 version, but jumps to 1770 pop for a chapter 9 version.

 

[DeepTerminal]

That makes sense, I'm currently in chapter 5, and the regular residences give me way more than culture/pop ones. Guess I'll wait till later chapters to use them then.

 

[Fayeanne]

Keep in mind regular residences cost culture, whereas the population/culture hybrids don't. So when measuring population per tile, you also have to add in how many tiles of culture buildings you need to support the residence.

 

[Deleted User - 312108]

They do not require roads and they give both population and culture which is a huge boon. It means they are doing double duty. Yes, they do not necessarily grant as much culture or population per square as a normal culture and residence, but they give me both which helps me advance and maintain 150% culture.

 

[Lelanya]

Black Lotus is one of the best seeds producers, but this only matters if you're in Halflings and beyond. Before that, I assume that the lotus is pretty useless.

Nope. It makes mana from Woodelves on so great for those players too

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Nope. It makes mana from Woodelves on so great for those players too

Useless is probably too strong a word, but for mana there are other - and better - options. Lotus is too small, not the top mana producer and can't be gained easily. It is still more efficient than regular mana producers, but it is just hard to get enough BLs to make a difference in mana production.

 

[mucksterme]

Guess I'll wait till later chapters to use them then.

If you're talking about event buildings already in your inventory, they stay at the chapter level where you first got them.
So you would have to use restoration to make them useful.
Which means if you really want to use them you should just go ahead and put them in and try to restore them as you go.
But
In most cases it would make more sense to disenchant them and get better ones later.

 

[kctanzen]

Exception to the disenchant / sell seemingly useless at the moment --- mana huts.
Never, ever, ever sell / disenchant mana huts.
They may be the most powerful building in the game (outside of a Fire Phoenix and the goodies you can leverage to get with it by actively doing tourneys).

I'm still only in Elementals, so i may not know what I'm talking about!!

 

[Deleted User - 312108]

eh - Mana huts depend on where you are in the game. When they give you supplies/t3 goods - they are meh.

 

[kctanzen]

eh - Mana huts depend on where you are in the game. When they give you supplies/t3 goods - they are meh.

The point I was trying to make --- is don't delete them / disenchant them because they appear to be "meh".

There are very, very few other buildings that exceed, let alone match, the mana production of these buildings after relatively cheap RR upgrades of only 4 per chapter. Elvenarchitect has an excellent comparison tool for various types of values, mana index is one of them.

In later chapters, when space is even more of a premium, being able to find a small hole for this 2x2 building is much easier than finding places for larger footprints that almost certainly have smaller per square mana values. Dragon Abbey and a lot of tourney activity eliminates almost all the mana generation problem one might have as another alternative / supplement.

 

[Pheryll]

Exception to the disenchant / sell seemingly useless at the moment --- mana huts.
Never, ever, ever sell / disenchant mana huts.
They may be the most powerful building in the game (outside of a Fire Phoenix and the goodies you can leverage to get with it by actively doing tourneys).

I'm still only in Elementals, so i may not know what I'm talking about!!

Mana huts are not the most powerful building in the game for mana. The are exceedingly outdone by a frost carved Christmas tree set.

 

[kctanzen]

I agree with you on the raw output, Pheryll -- I have 2 max mana frost carved trees myself.
Downside is that it takes 3 expansion plots to make that happen, with the supporting buildings to boost the mana up to max value.
There are many, many other benefits to the set -- but that is taking things farther off the original topic.

I'm not a math wizard by any stretch -- but I know that finding a 2 x 2 space a couple of places (6 in my case, i have hoarded them over time) is a lot easier than making a 3 expansion block for the set pieces when I need to do city re-design. Without the set support, a frost carved tree in halfling chapter makes 8500 mana per day. In the same space, I can put 3 hafling chapter mana huts @ 3800 each. I think that production ratio is pretty similar if the buildings are all in the same chapter.

 

[Deleted User - 312108]

KC I understand the point, but for someone in chapter 6 or below, hanging on to the mana hut for 3+ chapters probably isn't likely Especially if they are likely to be gained in future events. Granted I don't recall seeing the mana hut yet on beta.

 

[Pheryll]

I agree with you on the raw output, Pheryll -- I have 2 max mana frost carved trees myself.
Downside is that it takes 3 expansion plots to make that happen, with the supporting buildings to boost the mana up to max value.
There are many, many other benefits to the set -- but that is taking things farther off the original topic.

I'm not a math wizard by any stretch -- but I know that finding a 2 x 2 space a couple of places (6 in my case, i have hoarded them over time) is a lot easier than making a 3 expansion block for the set pieces when I need to do city re-design. Without the set support, a frost carved tree in halfling chapter makes 8500 mana per day. In the same space, I can put 3 hafling chapter mana huts @ 3800 each. I think that production ratio is pretty similar if the buildings are all in the same chapter.

The trees do not require anywhere close to the road space that mana huts need. Let's look at my arrangement. 4x Frost trees + 2x Winter Fair + 1x Market Stalls + 1x 2x1 Culture building for filler. That is an 8x12 arrangement = 96 squares. Let's compare that to 24 mana huts (also taking 96 squares not counting roads). I'll use the Amuni chapter since that is where my frost set currently is at. The 4x frost trees with set bonus produce 9933 mana per hour, while the 24x mana huts produce 6600 mana per hour. The trees are more than 50% better than the mana huts per square.

 

[kctanzen]

I have said it before and I'll say it once more as I wander off to the shadows again....
I'm not a math wizard (as Minmax / Pheryll some others are) and I'm not end game as many others are.
Nor am I skilled at city layout design.
High value buildings are rare .. and I would hazard a guess that getting 4 max mana trees took a bit of effort, luck, and/or diamonds.

I'll refrain from sharing what has worked for me and might work for others and stick to lurking again.
Have a nice day!

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

The trees do not require anywhere close to the road space that mana huts need. Let's look at my arrangement. 4x Frost trees + 2x Winter Fair + 1x Market Stalls + 1x 2x1 Culture building for filler. That is an 8x12 arrangement = 96 squares. Let's compare that to 24 mana huts (also taking 96 squares not counting roads). I'll use the Amuni chapter since that is where my frost set currently is at. The 4x frost trees with set bonus produce 9933 mana per hour, while the 24x mana huts produce 6600 mana per hour. The trees are more than 50% better than the mana huts per square.

I generally agree - no standalone building can really touch set buildings with link bonuses. Having said that, the top spot (on space and RR efficiency) would likely belong not to the trees, but to Revelers Fountain from the Carnival set. In Amuni, my RF produces 48K of mana per day, and it's missing one link. Fully linked, RF would produce whopping 67K of mana per day. That's in 3x3 footprint. Amuni trees generate about 60K a day, but are twice as big at 3x6.

Obviously, the whole sets are bigger, but have other benefits so that's hard to compare. The big difference is that one could get multiple trees for massive mana production, while fountain can be only one (as far as I know). So while more efficient, total output is more limited.

Having said that, neither of these sets are available now, so unless you already have them that's a moot point. You can still get mana huts once in a while (though not easy to get), but I probably won't carry them from low chapters unless I have massive surplus of RRs (I don't).

 

[Pheryll]

I generally agree - no standalone building can really touch set buildings with link bonuses. Having said that, the top spot (on space and RR efficiency) would likely belong not to the trees, but to Revelers Fountain from the Carnival set. In Amuni, my RF produces 48K of mana per day, and it's missing one link. Fully linked, RF would produce whopping 67K of mana per day. That's in 3x3 footprint. Amuni trees generate about 60K a day, but are twice as big at 3x6.

The thing with the reveler's fountain is that the total space dilutes the mana production, which is more than reasonable if you are relying on the other productions. The four tree set itself has other productions in tier 1 and 2 goods. The carnival set makes half the mana per square that my 4 tree set makes. So I will maintain that the trees are capable of the highest mana density as so little extra space is needed to give their two link bonus.

On the other hand, if we are talking RR efficiency, then I have a set just for that. Kirit (5x3) surrounded by 16 shrines (10 divine seeds, 6 mana). Throw 4 1x1 pop and culure buildings into the corner and it now it occupies a 7x5 rectangle (35 squares), whose total production is equal to 25 divine seed shrines + 15 mana shrines or 40 squares of top non-set tier mana and divine seed production. To keep the mana and divine seeds current, I only need to upgrade 16 squares.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

The thing with the reveler's fountain is that the total space dilutes the mana production, which is more than reasonable if you are relying on the other productions. The four tree set itself has other productions in tier 1 and 2 goods. The carnival set makes half the mana per square that my 4 tree set makes. So I will maintain that the trees are capable of the highest mana density as so little extra space is needed to give their two link bonus.

A matter of methodology, really. Or more specifically, value of other things outside of mana generation. Carnival set features 2 other top efficiency producers - Marching Band for seeds, and Jester's Tavern for T3. I would keep these buildings for their primary effect (these are so much better than anything else) - regardless of their link effect on Revelers Fountain. As such, I wouldn't be counting space for those buildings as part of the mana production. This leaves me with one filler building that is indeed there for the sole purpose of providing link bonus for the RF - Festive Fireworks. If not for bonus to RF, I won't have this building. This means that Carnival set space dedicated to mana generation is 9 squares for the fountain and 6 squares for the FF, so grand total of 15 squares. These 15 squares produce 48K mana per day, so we're at about 3.2K mana per square per day.

You can certainly do the same calculation for the winter set, and that's where it depends on whether you would place your T2 and T1 producers if not for link bonuses to the trees. If you won't, then all the set space is dedicated to mana, meaning ~240K of mana a day in 94 squares - about 2.6K mana per square per day (less efficient). If you would keep T2 and T1 producers regardless of mana link bonuses then you may consider only 18*4=72 squares dedicated to mana, it will make it slightly more efficient at 3.3K mana per square per day.

Also want to point out that there are only 60 cities or so on all the US servers combined with 4+ trees, so that's a rather extreme setup I got only 3 because I've got a bunch of sleds back in the day. Can't really talk about Kirit stuff as I was in chapter 3 or so at that time, and all this stuff is long gone