A (different) 5-day building for LM&HM

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Summary: New expiring 2x2 buildings that grant an initiative buff to Light melee or Heavy melee units (2 buildings)

Motive: Right now, ranged units have a huge advantage over melee due to almost always getting in 1 or 2 hits before contact. This is further exacerbated due to the lack of anything equivalent to the MMM and ELR buildings. Naturally, this leads to fewer strategic options and also devalues the Heroes Forge and Victory Springs as wonders. A secondary consideration is that several advanced players seem to have little to no interest in the daily offerings of events and this would provide an interesting alternative to the default of troop instants.

Details: Rather than a simple +50% damage like the Mages and Archers get, this building would provide an initiative buff to the units. At +5 for light melee and +10 for Heavy Melee, this would greatly reduce how often they get hit twice before making contact. Stacking 2 of these buildings could even allow dogs to hit first for a change before they themselves get hit.
Also, this should not be added to crafting but rather to events as a daily prize so as not to dilute the crafting pool, and to also give advanced players a desirable option in events that isn't permanent.

Balance:
With events giving ~16 daily prizes every ~2 months a player could sustainably use one of each building (or stack 2 of one type) each tournament if they forgo ALL other daily offerings from events. This seems like a reasonable sacrifice to me, but I'd like more feedback.
The +5 for LM could need a tweak but I think 5 works as it makes most LM units go before mages but after archers.
The +10 for HM is also open but it does hit a sweet spot where it makes HM faster than LM+HR but keeps them slower than Mages and LR.

Downsides: there is the odd encounter where even with melee you don't actually want to go first so some auto fights will actually have worse results with this buff, but the (vast?) majority of the time that won't be the case. And of course, there's the ever-present developer time involved. I'll also update the downsides based on
feedback.

Bonus: What could we name these two buildings?

Here my points why I do not like this.

• if added the chance for it to be added to the crafting pool is too high.
• It only benefits the dogs, it's pointless for all "other" light melee units.

ther only real "improvement" to these units would be if there was like a ~+100 to +200% hp or somthing crazy like that, somthing to overcome the pounding on them untill they finally come within striking distance of the enemey.

This is the main reason these units are "weak"

This is also what makes ranges units so OP, and the + attack buildings/phoenix help them tremendously

an often used manual tactic is to wait out the first round and let the enemy walk into your range so you can strike first.
So I am not sure that it's even "usable"

 

[SoggyShorts]

But this is a city building game. Aren't we *SUPPOSED* to build the best, most powerful, most interesting buildings? And then spend effort to keep them up to date?

But there's a hard limit due to having limited space. Once your city is full of "the best, most powerful, most interesting buildings" then anything less power/interesting is inherently worthless.
So you either have
1. Events that offer nothing of value
2. Events that offer something even more powerful than you have which leads to powercreep(see below)

To add 5-day expiring buildings as an event reward gives the developers and player s a third option- Powerful interesting buildings that must be replaced. This allows events to offer a never-ending stream of desirable prizes that don't break the game.

Powercreep:
If you keep giving me more powerful buildings then your game will keep getting easier for me.
Eventually, this must make the game too easy for me.
The only realistic way to make it harder for me is to make it harder for everyone.
If it's harder for everyone, how does that affect those who haven't collected all the goodies I have?
So the solution becomes a scaling one in an attempt to balance things like the new tournament formula, and we've seen how that ultimately failed advanced players.

My original suggestion was for a new type of ancient wonder. Your response is talking about event buildings. They are not the same.

My original suggestion (which is what this thread is) very much included the important caveat that this new building should be an Event reward for all of the reasons listed.

 

[SoggyShorts]

if added the chance for it to be added to the crafting pool is too high.

I have very much included this as a concern and given the reasons why it must be an event reward. If we are going to worry about Inno being a "corrupted wish" genie and twisting/ruining any feature suggestions that we request, then they might as well lock up the the whole ideas forums.

It only benefits the dogs, it's pointless for all "other" light melee units.

What if they have to walk around some terrain or eachother- often it could still make the difference between getting hit once or twice before contact, no?
I'm not trying to make this as overpowered as ELR or MMM, especially if you can get ~16 of them every event.

an often used manual tactic is to wait out the first round and let the enemy walk into your range so you can strike first.
So I am not sure that it's even "usable"

This is my biggest concern.

If it's just that manual fighters don't find it useful, that's fine, no problem.
If it's overall positive for auto-fighters, excellent.
If it's overall a negative for auto-fighters, then it's trash.

 

[Henroo]

My original suggestion (which is what this thread is) very much included the important caveat that this new building should be an Event reward for all of the reasons listed.

If I am understanding you right, you are saying you want to introduce a new 5 day building to the game which would give your troops a boost to initiative. And that part of the reason for it is that it will add a new element to the game, which will keep things interesting for the end game players, who have already maxed out everything else. I get that. Instead of a new 5 day building, I am suggesting a new, high level ancient wonder which would do something similar. Wouldn't leveling a new, high level ancient wonder that actually gives military benefits also be interesting for end game players? How does this not accomplish the same overall goal?

 

[Yogi Dave]

As far as the concept of a initiative advantage for your troops, I think that might be better for a future ancient wonder, not for a 5 day limited building. Frankly, from what I have seen there has not been an ancient wonder for a few chapters in the end game phase that gives a military advantage. This would be a way to fix this.

If a player has to get to ch 18 or higher to get an AW, it really only helps those who have been playing the game a long time. I think new AWs with power have passed the need of the game. However, event buildings can be gotten by everybody.

No matter what Inno does with event buildings, they will be liked by some and panned by others. If panned by too many, Inno eventually drops them. If they are loved too much (think wishing wells), they drop them or make them scarce. I like the idea of expiring event buildings since a mistake by Inno takes care of itself in a relatively short time. Great expiring building of any type might incentivize more event participation at all levels. If you missed the building that you really would have liked had you paid attention might get you to notice what the next event is about and get your to more actively strive to get the buildings. It would keep the look of the city changing as a building expires to be replaced by a different type one. After all, this is a city building game. It's shouldn't lead to a near static setup. My set buildings give me too much to want to replace them.

But, all this is off-topic for the 5d initiative boost.

ther only real "improvement" to these units [LM and HM] would be if there was like a ~+100 to +200% hp or somthing crazy like that, somthing to overcome the pounding on them untill they finally come within striking distance of the enemey.

Now, this would be more useful. Attack helps the range units more, but better armor would help the melee units - a lot. Even with dogs, they are more used to send them out, hopefully taking out the mages before they die, because they will die. The others can lumber down the arena and get to their enemies and crush them with only dents in their armor. Yes, there are the UUUs and DAs, but they apply to everyone. These would be specific like the initiative ones are.

 

[samidodamage]

I am suggesting a new, high level ancient wonder which would do something similar.

This should be a separate suggestion imo. The suggestion we're talking about here is an expiring event only building. The considerations for those 2 very different types of bldgs would be very different as well. Ex: availability of the building, stacking, etc would not apply to an AW. Permanence and increased effect at higher levels of AW's would not apply to expiring event only bldgs. Also, since it's known that the AW's for chapters 18-20 are already developed, it's a much longer term idea than introducing an event building. Developing it as a separate suggestion would not preclude this idea and would garner more relevant input imo. I'd certainly be willing to consider a well-developed idea for that and offer whatever input I had that might be appropriate.

If it's just that manual fighters don't find it useful, that's fine, no problem.
If it's overall positive for auto-fighters, excellent.
If it's overall a negative for auto-fighters, then it's trash.

This is how I'm trying to look at this idea, too. I doubt the impact will be such that it significantly changes my non-use of Melee units as a manual fighter. We're a tiny percentage of browser players and manual's not even available to mobile players so I don't think how it effects us should be a consideration anyway. But @Yogi Dave made a point about positive impact of the higher initiative of Melee causing enemy units to target them sooner that I think makes sense at least with the HM's (LM's can't absorb the damage, so the impact on them would be different). I find that my HM's can absorb more damage from Abbots and Enchantresses than my HR's. In certain fights, that could be useful. If, for example, enemies are 2 dogs, 2 ancient orcs and one enchantress: I would go in with 5 frogs if not for that one mage. I might be tempted to try 3 frogs/2 treants if the HM's had an initiative higher than the frogs that would draw the mage's attack first. It would at least make it an interesting alternative. Currently I'd go in with 4 frogs, 1 blossom. With the current boost bldgs, I might still go in with that, but it would offer other alternatives. It could be a definite benefit to autofight players and newer cities that don't have the higher level AW's, fire chicken, or the CC's/SF's/time boosters to craft all the military boost bldgs that I can.

 

[SoulsSilhouette]

How about builds that specifically help a troop... like a cerebus boost or a treant boost?

Hey they could give troops as prizes but all sorts of troops instead of just the the ones they give now. I want more dogs and more banshees, more drones... etc.. instead of only the one kind.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

I have very much included this as a concern and given the reasons why it must be an event reward. If we are going to worry about Inno being a "corrupted wish" genie and twisting/ruining any feature suggestions that we request, then they might as well lock up the the whole ideas forums.

Do not forget UUU, MMM and ELR were originally event only buildings. for the first year or so that's where you could get them.

This is my biggest concern.

If it's just that manual fighters don't find it useful, that's fine, no problem.
If it's overall positive for auto-fighters, excellent.
If it's overall a negative for auto-fighters, then it's trash.

I only grabbed manual as an example where it shows that one of the flaws of autocombat is that all there units run ahead (without able to strike the ememy) and put themselves in harms way.
So one of the "tactics" in manual is that is deployed is the delay of that first run ahead.
Let the enemey make the first move so they walk into you range, then strike.

This is the main tactic of 1 round manual rest auto. avopid the being hit in the first round, so your units are better positoned in the second.

So I wonder if this has a positive effect for autocombat players as this often does exactly what you do not want.

This is how I'm trying to look at this idea, too. I doubt the impact will be such that it significantly changes my non-use of Melee units as a manual fighter. We're a tiny percentage of browser players and manual's not even available to mobile players so I don't think how it effects us should be a consideration anyway. But @Yogi Dave made a point about positive impact of the higher initiative of Melee causing enemy units to target them sooner that I think makes sense at least with the HM's (LM's can't absorb the damage, so the impact on them would be different). I find that my HM's can absorb more damage from Abbots and Enchantresses than my HR's. In certain fights, that could be useful. If, for example, enemies are 2 dogs, 2 ancient orcs and one enchantress: I would go in with 5 frogs if not for that one mage. I might be tempted to try 3 frogs/2 treants if the HM's had an initiative higher than the frogs that would draw the mage's attack first. It would at least make it an interesting alternative. Currently I'd go in with 4 frogs, 1 blossom. With the current boost bldgs, I might still go in with that, but it would offer other alternatives. It could be a definite benefit to autofight players and newer cities that don't have the higher level AW's, fire chicken, or the CC's/SF's/time boosters to craft all the military boost bldgs that I can.

This is a misconception let me explain.
The 1st round attack order of the mistwalker is as follows

Sorceres​

Dryad​

Archer​

Blossom​

Banshee​

Treant​

Ranger​

Drone Rider​

Sword Dancer​

Cerberus​

Frog Prince​

Orc Warrior​

Golem​

Note the 2 bolded examples here.
Sorceres has a lower initiative than any LR unit, yet she is the primary target of the mistwalker if it can reach the sorceress.
On the other hand the fastest unit in the players asenal is the ranger, yes it only ranks as the 7th possible target.

Another example I have noted down, this is the cannoneers attack order

Archer​

Ranger​

Dryad​

Blossom​

Banshee​

Sorceress​

Drone Rider​

Sword Dancer​

Cerberus​

Frog Prince​

Golem​

Orc Strategist​

This one takes a lot more the common sense road, with archers targetted before mages.
But again we see a discrepancy here, Archers with a lower initiative are targetted before rangers are.
Also note that treants(slowest unit in game?) are targetted before LM units are.

So while there is some merit in that claim it's a little bit more complicated.
This is because of changes made to the AI when people pointed out at the introduction it did come things we did not like.

Unfortunately the AI on both sides of the battle is identical so most of those changes made then are kinda mood.

 

[SoggyShorts]

If I am understanding you right, you are saying you want to introduce a new 5 day building to the game which would give your troops a boost to initiative. And that part of the reason for it is that it will add a new element to the game, which will keep things interesting for the end game players, who have already maxed out everything else. I get that. Instead of a new 5 day building, I am suggesting a new, high level ancient wonder which would do something similar. Wouldn't leveling a new, high level ancient wonder that actually gives military benefits also be interesting for end game players? How does this not accomplish the same overall goal?

You're ignoring that one of the main goals is to add desirable yet not overpowered event buildings for late-game players.

again:
" Once your city is full of "the best, most powerful, most interesting buildings" then anything less power/interesting is inherently worthless.
So you either have
1. Events that offer nothing of value
2. Events that offer something even more powerful than you have which leads to powercreep(see below)

To add 5-day expiring buildings as an event reward gives the developers and players a third option- Powerful interesting buildings that must be replaced. This allows events to offer a never-ending stream of desirable prizes that don't break the game. "

A wonder which as I said couldn't be added until chapter 21 or later would not be released for at least 2 years, and even then would only be accessible for those players who are at the VERY end which keeps LM&HM nearly useless for 99% of players 99% of the time.
Also, a wonder would have to get better as you upgrade it since that's what wonders do, and that means it would either be crap to start or overpowered to finish. The only other way to balance it would be to make it decent to start and have upgrades with minimal impact which also doesn't feel rewarding.
And finally, balance is much less of an issue with a 5-day expiring building that you win in events: If it's too weak, buff it, if it's too powerful, just stop handing them out and the problem solves itself- with wonders people lose their minds when the devs nerf them.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Let the enemey make the first move so they walk into you range, then strike.
..
So I wonder if this has a positive effect for autocombat players as this often does exactly what you do not want.

Yeah, I have no idea. On Tuesday I'll try to run some manual fights where LM/HM would be appropriate and watch the AI

 

[Yogi Dave]

On Tuesday I'll try to run some manual fights where LM/HM would be appropriate and watch the AI

Be sure to have popcorn to throw at the screen. It's either painful or humorous to watch the computer fight itself.

 

[Silver Lady]

To add 5-day expiring buildings as an event reward gives the developers and players a third option- Powerful interesting buildings that must be replaced. This allows events to offer a never-ending stream of desirable prizes that don't break the game.

I’m not a big fighter and can only auto-fight as I play on a tablet. But if I follow the idea of the expiring building that Soggy put forth then I’d say “Yes”. Didn’t know why my poor melee units always got so beat up now I understand. IMO I don’t think a 5-day building could really break anything and could make the melee units a bit more useful. I also like small expiring building just because they allow me to make minor changes to the look of my city & that keeps me actually looking at my city instead of just quickly going in an clicking. We should all stop and smell the roses and appreciate what we’ve built. Thanks for the suggestion, hope it continues forward.

 

[Yogi Dave]

On Tuesday I'll try to run some manual fights where LM/HM would be appropriate and watch the AI

Did you have fun watching the fights? As I thought about it, beer would have been better than popcorn, but that might have impaired your judgement. A mojito or two. Yeah, no worry about being impaired with them. Of course, not many battles could use LM/HM this week.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Did you have fun watching the fights? As I thought about it, beer would have been better than popcorn, but that might have impaired your judgement. A mojito or two. Yeah, no worry about being impaired with them. Of course, not many battles could use LM/HM this week.

I lasted for 3 fights. Too slow, too painful. The buff would have been neutral on one and an advantage on the other 2 though, so that's something I guess. I'd rather eat glass than test it anymore though.

 

[Yogi Dave]

I guess. I'd rather eat glass than test it anymore though.

ROFL Yes, tough to watch, especially HM fights. I've advised people who think watching auto-fight battles will help them learn how to manual fight, that they will learn more about what not to do than what to do.

 

[Fayeanne]

Wow, is the AI that bad with HM? I actually like using Paladins and Vallorian Guards in manual combat; they're tough, deal good damage, and can poke/twap things over other things.
Not a big fan of Treants/Orc Warriors though.

 

[Silver Lady]

Does this mean a player who is exclusively on a tablet can never have a city that mostly fights and has to cater everything? Right now I guess I’m early enough in the game that the fights aren’t too hard but I still find that I have to cater a fair amount of the time.

 

[Yogi Dave]

In easy battles, the computer is about as good as manual, but it's really bad in tough ones no matter what troops are used.

The lizards are the best HM, IMHO. One problem with the computer using HM with a reach of 2 is it never gets right next to the enemy to attack which prevents extra HMs from attacking that round. Of course, that's a good thing about their knights.

 

[Yogi Dave]

Does this mean a player who is exclusively on a tablet can never have a city that mostly fights and has to cater everything?

No. I know many people who only auto-fight and only cater the tough combinations. With the new format, there may be more bad combinations, but also some easier ones that couldn't occur in the old style. I basically auto-fight until in the 20 something provs, with probably less than 5% catering or manual. As it gets higher and higher, I do more and more manual and no catering.

Full disclosure: I have raised most of my military AWs to the level 30 or close to it and use several 5 day buildings each week. Since my Timewarp is maxed and I have a polar bear, my 5d buildings last for 2 tourneys, allowing me to use 2 MMMs, 2 ELRs, a UUU and a DA. Since I usually get one of each every week through crafting and spire, I don't run out. Oh, and of course, feed the fire chicken. Also, I have constructed my city to produce lots of troops so don't mind losing a stack or two in some battles, but absolutely hate to totally lose a battle. Too many of them at the high levels can stop you cold.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Does this mean a player who is exclusively on a tablet can never have a city that mostly fights and has to cater everything? Right now I guess I’m early enough in the game that the fights aren’t too hard but I still find that I have to cater a fair amount of the time.

Not at all, I auto-fight 99% of everything with an extremely rare cater, and have for years.
Yes, watching the AI is painful, but TBH all manual fighting is very basic and super slow.
Almost the entirety of manual fighting strategy looks like this:

"Can I hit the enemy?"
If Yes, do it.
If No,
"Can the enemy hit me if I stay here?"
If Yes, move forwards
If No, stay here.

That's it, the rest is rock-paper-scissors(lizard-spock) except you get to see what your opponent is using in advance.