A Lament

[ajqtrz]

Since June 18th there have been only 4 threads receiving posts in The Lounge. I'm not surprised as the list of things you can't talk about are pretty thin. And the fact that those 4 threads are, essentially, games, means the idea that you can talk about what you want to talk about is pretty much, in my opinion, not true.

Over time I've attempted to put up posts to start conversations about communication, in particular, and some of them have received considered and valuable replies. But, I suspect, most people are not enamored with discussions of communication and it's uses and abuses, but are very much invested in discussions of other things..... of which we cannot speak.

So if you wonder why the forum is pretty much slow to dead, think about the range of subjects about which we are allowed to address and you can pretty easily see, we have nothing of which to talk about that interests us.

In my mind a forum is a place to get to know others and build relationships. Banning the most important subjects to people is probably not the best way to help them get to know each other. And it's certainly not helpful in having a vibrant and dynamic forum. In the end I suspect keeping the forum a quiet place is part of the strategy. If you keep people from speaking of anything remotely controversial you keep things quiet and need a lot less moderation. And since moderation costs -- even if the moderators aren't paid somebody has to train them, recruit them, and work with them -- it's likely that, too, goes into the mix of what you allow or not.

Finally, since it's on my mind, I don't know the answer. If you widen the scope of subjects allowed, you risk a free-for-all as there are a few people who cannot discipline themselves to engage in a polite and civil discourse about things they feel strongly. Or you invest a lot more in forum moderation and deal with more "feisty" players one on one.

So this is a lament to a nearly dead forum.

AJ

 

[Moho]

 

[Alram]

The Internet is a big place with lots of forums for you to freely discuss anything you want. This tiny corner is happily dedicated to all things Elvenar.

 

[Smooper]

I am a member of an unofficial Elvenar Discord channel and used to post there a lot. I will answer questions if I know the answer and I will ask questions if I don't know the answer but I can do that here so I don't post there anymore. I don't really have lots of hobbies or interests which I can talk about in a forum. I play video games, I go to the cabin, I go to work, I have a wife and child at home. I am generally a boring person and will not get into political or military conversations in a laid back game forum so....that's why I don't post a lot and I am sure others are similar.

 

[Darielle]

Aj, I am not sure how I feel on the subject ... I'm somewhat on the pros and cons fence ... but I will say that I love your new signature.

 

[ajqtrz]

The Internet is a big place with lots of forums for you to freely discuss anything you want. This tiny corner is happily dedicated to all things Elvenar.

The Lounge is specifically dedicated to things "not Elvenar," and is supposed to be a place where we talk about things "not elvenar." We can't talk about a lot of things and the few we can seem to be more about games than subjects. In addition, while you may come to this forum (in general) to relax and have fun, to some players, like myself, "fun" is talking about all sorts of other things. I do think the whole "you cant's talk about this," boils down to "when people talk about this they don't seem to be able to do so in a civil and calm manner," so the forum rules are a way of guarding the players experience in the forum lest they associate Elvenar with "bad experiences."

And, just to be clear, I go to other forums but....and here's the problem, they get pretty "feisty" pretty fast. Most "trolls" seem to think that just saying what they believe in a pithy way, ought to be enough to instantly convince you. For me I only believe when the gods speak, everyone else should use reason, facts, and civil discussion. In other words, yes, I do see the problem and I don't think there is a solution without a lot of, sadly, supervision. But is it better that a person not talk about "important" matters or to have somebody else tell them what they can speak about or not? In the long run, if every forum wants to minimize cost and maximize profit they need to get everybody on the forum to either speak civilly about every topic (good luck with that) and deal with the incivility as it comes up, or shut down something akin to 'free speech." We know how many points of view are represented when a forum decides to restrict the points of view. I'd rather have them restrict how it can be said rather than what can be said.

Aj, I am not sure how I feel on the subject ... I'm somewhat on the pros and cons fence ... but I will say that I love your new signature.

And I made it completely myself. I'm slowly learning graphics and thought it looked pretty nice. Now I have to redo it because we change our name to Voyager, and I want to add some stuff, but I can't find the original. NOTE TO SELF: Get your files organized!" LOL. Thanks for comment.

AJ

 

[Alram]

Forum moderators are enforcing the rules to ensure a pleasant experience for everyone, see rule #15.

The Lounge thread is a catch-all place for topics that don't neatly fit any other category, not a place where normal posting rules are suspended.

For those who are unfamiliar with the posting guidelines:

https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.702/

 

[Moho]

So this is a lament to a nearly dead forum.

Okay, let me try to be more useful.

______________________________________________________________________________________

I know you enjoy writing in an essay form, but Internet users generally want to read simple stuff.

Here's a paragraph from wikipedia:
Some walls of text are intentionally disruptive, such as when an editor attempts to overwhelm a discussion with a mass of irrelevant kilobytes. Other walls are due to lack of awareness of good practices, such as when an editor tries to cram every one of their cogent points into a single comprehensive response that is roughly the length of a short novel. Not all long posts are walls of text; some can be nuanced and thoughtful. Just remember: the longer it is, the less of it people will read.
(source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wall_of_text)

_______________________________________________________________________________________


One way to make Internet users to enjoy reading it is by adding space to it, like this:

Some walls of text are intentionally disruptive, such as when an editor attempts to overwhelm a discussion with a mass of irrelevant kilobytes.

Other walls are due to lack of awareness of good practices, such as when an editor tries to cram every one of their cogent points into a single comprehensive response that is roughly the length of a short novel.

Not all long posts are walls of text; some can be nuanced and thoughtful.

Just remember: the longer it is, the less of it people will read.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Another way is to imagine a dialogue between say an elf and an orc, which may cause Elvenar players to find it relevant to their gameplay.
Something like this:

FRIENDLY ORC: Hey, Elf Bob. Can you help me with something? I tried to access some online documents and I hit my head against some horrible walls of text. What is going on?

ELF BOB: No problem, Friendly Orc. Let me tell you that some walls of text are intentionally disruptive, such as when an editor attempts to overwhelm a discussion with a mass of irrelevant kilobytes.

FRIENDLY ORC: But the walls of text I ran into didn't not seem to be intentionally disruptive.

ELF BOB: I know. Usually they're not. Some walls of text are intentionally disruptive, indeed. But other walls are due to lack of awareness of good practices, such as when an editor tries to cram every one of their cogent points into a single comprehensive response that is roughly the length of a short novel.

FRIENDLY ORC: Jesus! Why do people keep using walls of text? I'll never be able to understand that.

ELF BOB: Maybe you should be a little more open-minded, Friendly Orc. Not all long posts are walls of text; some can be nuanced and thoughtful.

FRIENDLY ORC: Really? Maybe I should try writing walls of text too.

ELF BOB: Maybe. Just remember: the longer it is, the less of it people will read.

______________________________________________________________________________

I am sure there are other ways to do this successfully, but the two above are some of my favorites.
Good luck.

 

[Iyapo]

I am not sure I understand the point of this thread. I feel like I just got spun in a circle.

I do think the whole "you cant's talk about this," boils down to "when people talk about this they don't seem to be able to do so in a civil and calm manner," so the forum rules are a way of guarding the players experience

This is obviously true.

I'd rather have them restrict how it can be said rather than what can be said.

Sadly, as per the first quote, "when people talk about this they don't seem to be able to do so in a civil and calm manner,".

So this whole thread is about the inability of most human beings to remain civil and calm when discussing certain topics? Or is it about the lack of free speech on a private website due to the inability of most human beings to remain civil and calm when discussing certain topics?

 

[Myne]

I am not sure I understand the point of this thread. I feel like I just got spun in a circle.

This is obviously true.

Sadly, as per the first quote, "when people talk about this they don't seem to be able to do so in a civil and calm manner,".

So this whole thread is about the inability of most human beings to remain civil and calm when discussing certain topics? Or is it about the lack of free speech on a private website due to the inability of most human beings to remain civil and calm when discussing certain topics?

I pick D: All of the above.

 

[ajqtrz]

I am not sure I understand the point of this thread. I feel like I just got spun in a circle.

This is obviously true.

Sadly, as per the first quote, "when people talk about this they don't seem to be able to do so in a civil and calm manner,".

So this whole thread is about the inability of most human beings to remain civil and calm when discussing certain topics? Or is it about the lack of free speech on a private website due to the inability of most human beings to remain civil and calm when discussing certain topics?

I pick D: All of the above.

Myne is right. It's a Lament. Technically a lament is just a sad response to something and is not meant to solve anything because it usually also recognizes the thing probably can't be solved. In both cases it's sad, but probably true, that the cost of opening the forums to vigorous debate vs shutting them down to almost all debate favors the shutting down side of the equation and that's just sad. In this case you not only can't have your cake and eat it too, you can't even have your cake.

Forum moderators are enforcing the rules to ensure a pleasant experience for everyone, see rule #15.

The Lounge thread is a catch-all place for topics that don't neatly fit any other category, not a place where normal posting rules are suspended.

For those who are unfamiliar with the posting guidelines:

https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.702/

I'm not sure why this is here. Nobody, including myself, has suggested the "normal posting rules" are suspended in the Lounge. That's why it's a lament. That they can't be suspended. But your comments do make me wonder: if the point is a "pleasant experience for everyone," what if I like and find my "pleasant experience" in discussion/debate? You can't please all the people all the time unless you define what it means for them to be pleased -- and then enforce it.

AJ

 

[Iyapo]

People who want to talk about [MOD EDIT] can go please themselves elsewhere.

Obviously I am not lamenting.

 

[Scrounge Witch]

We are at the beginning of the end of the human age of words. This is because there was a finite albeit astronomical number of words when language began, and since the advent of the internet and then texting and then social media, we've nearly hit the singularity of word usage. Perhaps it won't happen this century, but maybe the next, those living then will no longer speak or write.

 

[Astram]

FRIENDLY ORC: Hey, Elf Bob. Can you help me with something? I tried to access some online documents and I hit my head against some horrible walls of text. What is going on?

OH my, the Orc hit the Orc Wall .... That's all I remember from that post

 

[Silly Bubbles]

So if you wonder why the forum is pretty much slow to dead, think about the range of subjects about which we are allowed to address and you can pretty easily see, we have nothing of which to talk about that interests us.

I don't think that the range of subjects is the problem, I feel free to discuss whatever I want Elvenar related and sometimes it even leads to other topics that still help others with the game. After all it is Elvenar forum, I don't feel like discussing anything completely unrelated as it's not a common interest and the discussion wouldn't be very interesting anyway.

It still would be nice if there were more discussions on why things are the way they are and how to do things better way rather than just trying to sell our opinions. Each one of us has something good to contribute and putting it together is quite interesting. Teamwork always produces better ideas.

 

[Moho]

 

[ajqtrz]

I don't think that the range of subjects is the problem, I feel free to discuss whatever I want Elvenar related and sometimes it even leads to other topics that still help others with the game. After all it is Elvenar forum, I don't feel like discussing anything completely unrelated as it's not a common interest and the discussion wouldn't be very interesting anyway.

It still would be nice if there were more discussions on why things are the way they are and how to do things better way rather than just trying to sell our opinions. Each one of us has something good to contribute and putting it together is quite interesting. Teamwork always produces better ideas.

I'm wondering what you think a discussion on "why things are the way they re and how to do things better way rather than just trying to sell our opinions," might look like. Personally, to me the problem is people feel strongly and think their feelings are the final and conclusive answer to the question at hand. So they express their feelings and think that should be persuasive. I'm fond of saying "your feelings do not equal my persuasion.' I've seen this in public debates where one person is upset because the other person isn't being persuaded. They say, "you've hurt my feelings!" They then think the other person should apologize and, more importantly, shut up, while they go on and on about how they feel. Feelings, folks, are just one source of persuasion and, as my best friend used to say, "when feelings rule, they seldom rule well."

AJ

 

[Alram]

 

[Iyapo]

Oh no...not Mr. Collins!

"Do these pleasing attentions proceed from the impulse of the moment, or are they the result of previous study?"

 

[Silly Bubbles]

I'm wondering what you think a discussion on "why things are the way they re and how to do things better way rather than just trying to sell our opinions," might look like. Personally, to me the problem is people feel strongly and think their feelings are the final and conclusive answer to the question at hand. So they express their feelings and think that should be persuasive. I'm fond of saying "your feelings do not equal my persuasion.' I've seen this in public debates where one person is upset because the other person isn't being persuaded. They say, "you've hurt my feelings!" They then think the other person should apologize and, more importantly, shut up, while they go on and on about how they feel. Feelings, folks, are just one source of persuasion and, as my best friend used to say, "when feelings rule, they seldom rule well."

AJ

All about facts. There is a big differences between facts and opinions. Facts are same for everyone eg it's raining. Opinions are different based on our personality and our personal circumstances eg rain is bad, rain is good, I don't care, it's good only sometimes... There's millions of different opinions but there is only one fact that it's raining. I think that we should be all allowed to have whatever opinion we have, it still doesn't change the fact that it's raining.