Advance Scouting Tech

[DeletedUser684]

OK. I've read through most of the comments in this thread, which was painful at times.

What we should be petitioning for and more to the point: when the Advanced Scouts is unlocked, the defense and negotiation costs should be automatically adjusted for everything that has already been scouted, but not yet conquered. That is the fix that is needed. That way, even if you have over-scouted, the costs will be appropriately adjusted for your level (downward). Over-scouting then becomes a non-issue. If you still aren't strong enough to fight or negotiate, that isn't over-scouting, or over-conquering, that is simply reaching the limit for your current level. Kudos to you for maxing out, and be patient for the new level.

I will say that with the new combat system, the ability to fight is much more limited than the ability to negotiate, but that is a different topic and addressed in many threads.

ALSO, (this is in a related thread that someone has posted) The Chest Lock needs to come AFTER the Advanced Scouts (it can just sit on the line, or be its own box), so that you have the ability to reduce the cost for the 30+ provinces before you have to fight or negotiate them. That way, (if the first fix is made) you can go ahead and scout the provinces you need and be able to progress smoothly and easily into the next Era, fighting or negotiating, without having unreasonable costs and delays.

I would like to say that the cost of the newly scouted provinces (both scouting cost and province defenses) should not be based on the distance from your home at all, or how many provinces you have scouted, but only from how many provinces you have already captured. It is more important in this game to connect with people than to spread out in a circle. That has always been and continues to be the case, and the mechanics work against it. If you want your 10 provinces to be a bee-line to a friend you just made, that should absolutely be encouraged and supported.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Over-scouting then becomes a non-issue.

If players KNEW about the advanced techs reducing enemy size/negotiation costs it would be a non-issue. The problem is that less than 0.02% of players visit the forums. If you were aware that the AS tech reduced difficulty you'd scout your first ring X province, see that you can't win, and stop.

This however, is defeated by unlimited negotiation abilities (until ring 11/orc chapter)

What they need to do if they are going to continue this route, is add in a special good for negotiating that lines up with the point where you reach 2x stack size opponents.
If they don't do that, people will just hit a fighting wall, and negotiate which will lead to then never being able to fight again.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

If players KNEW about the advanced techs reducing enemy size/negotiation costs it would be a non-issue. The problem is that less than 0.02% of players visit the forums. If you were aware that the AS tech reduced difficulty you'd scout your first ring X province, see that you can't win, and stop.

This however, is defeated by unlimited negotiation abilities (until ring 11/orc chapter)

What they need to do if they are going to continue this route, is add in a special good for negotiating that lines up with the point where you reach 2x stack size opponents.
If they don't do that, people will just hit a fighting wall, and negotiate which will lead to then never being able to fight again.

I would be greatly opposed to this. This would make not only fighting impossible, but negotiating as well, effectively stifling the growth of a player indefinitely, since expansions from provinces are going to become unobtainable.
Since there are only a very limited number op expansions available by research, this would cut of the only other way to gain expansions, since buying them is out of the question with the extortion-rates they come at now.
Even adding more to the researsch tree is not much good if you block a way of getting KP's from the provinces, though that is a minor issue if the tournaments will be balanced in such a way one can gain more KP's there.
Though I'm sure Inno would just love to implement yet another barrier (which one no doubt also will be able to circumvent using diamonds) my prediction is that the moment they do so the drop-out rate of players will become so high they will effectively kill the game.

Technically, there IS no overscouting. So let's stop pretending there is. It's all done in the name of 'balancing' but there is no single good argument posted yet that shows what exactly was balanced or what kind of technical difficulty there was supposed to be.

 

[DeletedUser4778]

@Omidawn: I've already made those two suggestions but they sadly seem to not even have been noticed by the powers that be.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Technically, there IS no overscouting. So let's stop pretending there is. It's all done in the name of 'balancing' but there is no single good argument posted yet that shows what exactly was balanced or what kind of technical difficulty there was supposed to be.

I'm not saying that I agree with INNOs vision, but as I understand it they want the KP tree to have a certain level of difficulty, and if you have "too many" expansions it makes the research costs negligible since you have room for so many factories. That seems to be where their idea of "balance" comes from. As far as this always being circumvent-able via diamonds... I guess they are ok with people paying RL$ to make the game very easy.

I've spoken with some "over scouted" players, and they say that in the 3-4 days it takes them to scout they easily save up enough goods to insta-cater a new province once it comes in, which doesn't sound like much of a challenge.

I'm just getting to the end of dwarves, and it's been great trying to get enough special goods so I don't get tech locked. If I had grabbed 3 or 4 more expansions and just dropped a bunch more granite/copper there would have been no challenge at all.
Granted, some players like to play by rushing the provinces and getting a big city so they can blow through the techs, and personally I think that is ok, but INNO doesn't seem to think that sort of balance is good for the longevity of the game.

 

[Thistleknot]

I've spoken with some "over scouted" players, and they say that in the 3-4 days it takes them to scout they easily save up enough goods to insta-cater a new province once it comes in, which doesn't sound like much of a challenge.

Out of curiosity, I looked at two of my farthest open provinces, both gems, and added up the negotiation costs. Both provinces were scouted prior to the combat system being changed and actually ended the day before the first world movement of players. Then I estimated the amount of goods that I could produce in a day. Here is what I can up with.

I have 6 level-19 planks manufactories with a 653% boost, 3 level-19 scrolls manufactories with a 673% boost, 3 level-19 magic dust manufactories with a 695% boost, and 4 level-23 armories. I can produce about 32,300 planks, 34,600 scrolls, 35,400 magic dust, and 2880 orcs in a day.

A Gem province in the 15th ring requires 82,700 tier-1 goods, 75,800 tier-2 goods, 68,500 tier-3 goods, and 1521 orcs. Assuming I can get the trades that I need in a timely manner, I can cover these costs in 3 days of production.

A Gem province in the 17th ring requires 149,300 tier-1 goods, 135,600 tier-2 goods, 144,600 tier-3 goods, and 3110 orcs. Assuming I can get the trades that I need in a timely manner, I can cover these costs in 5 days of production. Would be 4, but I need the extra day to get the tier-1 goods.

Considering that I have a modest production, it is interesting to note that I could probably negotiate my way through ever province within 15 or 16 rings of me with very little issue as long as the scouting time was right at three days. If the scouting time is shorted, then I am just waiting to produce the goods. For those people that have spent diamonds to have extremely large populations and therefore can have 10 to 20 of each type of manufactory, then negotiating for them would be nothing since they could probably produce that much in a day.

But then the question comes to mind, if a person has spent diamonds to get the extreme population cultural buildings, wouldn't they have already spent diamonds to get all the premium expansions? So if they have all the expansions that they need, how much time are they spending on exploring? They don't need as many expansions so the only reason to conquer provinces would be to get KP, relics, and runes. And that pesky province requirement for the chests. But you can now get all of these more easily by doing the tournaments and it would be cheaper.

For someone like me who was slowly but steadily fighting through provinces in order to get expansions, the fighting was an enjoyable challenge. Now since I cannot fight and (thanks to Soggy) have done the analysis, I am considering pushing forward with just negotiating since I still need to conquer provinces to get the expansions that I need to fill out my map. Time to start producing lots of Magically Manufacturing spells.

All very interesting. Not sure what it proves other than I can still get the provinces that I need to get expansions that I want.

 

[SoggyShorts]

All very interesting. Not sure what it proves other than I can still get the provinces that I need to get expansions that I want.

I'd say go for it while you can. If I and others have noticed that not being able to fight has zero impact on how fast advanced cities can clear provinces there's a good chance INNO has too, and it just waiting to drop new orc like limits on every chapter/ring.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

I'm not saying that I agree with INNOs vision, but as I understand it they want the KP tree to have a certain level of difficulty, and if you have "too many" expansions it makes the research costs negligible since you have room for so many factories. That seems to be where their idea of "balance" comes from. As far as this always being circumvent-able via diamonds... I guess they are ok with people paying RL$ to make the game very easy.

I've spoken with some "over scouted" players, and they say that in the 3-4 days it takes them to scout they easily save up enough goods to insta-cater a new province once it comes in, which doesn't sound like much of a challenge.

I'm just getting to the end of dwarves, and it's been great trying to get enough special goods so I don't get tech locked. If I had grabbed 3 or 4 more expansions and just dropped a bunch more granite/copper there would have been no challenge at all.
Granted, some players like to play by rushing the provinces and getting a big city so they can blow through the techs, and personally I think that is ok, but INNO doesn't seem to think that sort of balance is good for the longevity of the game.

Quite so. I was able to produce enough goods to negotiate the costs in the 3 days needed for the scout to finish. However, if I waited for 3 days I bloody well would like the pleasure of being able to do those battles. Even if it took me 2 or 3 times to finish each encounter.

Now however, I KNOW there is no chance to fight. When the opposing squads are 3 or 4 times mine there just no longer is a way to win. it's useless to try. So I HAVE to negotiate them.
So, what did I do? First I sold 2 of the 4 armories. They take up a lot of space and don't do any good, except that I need the orcs (for upgrading the workshops as well btw, so I need 1 or 2, though perhaps I will try with only 1). But If I could get the orcs in another way they'd be gone in a second.
Then I sold the traininggrounds and the mercenarycamp. Can't win anyway, so I have no use for those units.
Can't sell the barracks and that sucks, but it is how it is. However, if I could sell it I would do so.
Hey, now I have space left open...well, pop up a few more factories so I can get the goods needed to negotiate and still have some left to upgrade buildings.

So what exactly is the use of making the fights impossible?
Now I produce even more goods because I know I will negotiate every encounter. So the focus is gone from having to deliberate about fighting or producing.
Fighting is a no-go-zone. So, there is no question anymore. This also takes from the pleasure and the art of organising your city because one major choice in how to balance the military vs the economy is a completely forgone conclusion.
It also definitely takes from the pleasure of the game, of being able to defeat larger armies (hey, sound familiar? it's in the 'did you know' screens when loading the screens), even if it only is by trial and error, or by high tactics or using the terrain. Now if the armies get over twice your size you can't win, except a very rare one with favorable terrain and a LOT of luck. If they are 3 or 4 times yours, it's often that you don't even last 1 round. What is the fun of that?
I mean, I've had 2 'battles' where I only had half of one squad left standing before I even could do my first move....come on, be serious, why even bother trying?

 

[DeletedUser2870]

I'd say go for it while you can. If I and others have noticed that not being able to fight has zero impact on how fast advanced cities can clear provinces there's a good chance INNO has too, and it just waiting to drop new orc like limits on every chapter/ring.

Right. I'm sure Inno would just love to put up more roadblocks.
However, if they took the effort of looking at the results of the last set of blocks, they would see many players are quitting the game because of them.

Put up even more blocks and there's a more than even chance yet MORE people will quit. And with the new prices for expansions nobody in his right mind will expect that many players will buy them. So revenue on that will go down too, no matter what else they do or do not do.

You can of course keep trying to chase existing players away and try to bring in new ones, but the new ones haven't invested as much as your existing players and if you put up all kinds of roadblocks in your game they're not likely to ever do so either.

 

[DeletedUser3507]

Well said.