Advance Scouting Tech

[Thistleknot]

Guys, please forgive me, but I have to respond to something Lionsmane said.

Yes there were limits in place and have been for months prior to any of the new battle upgrades. They did this when they instituted the chests that list a range requirement on provinces

When the chests were included as part of the tech tree, I saw nothing stating that these were stopping points that needed to be reached and not passed. I believe they were added to encourage people to explore so that they would benefit more from the tournaments that were coming down the pipe. To me, the chests seemed to be more like checkpoints. You need to be at least this far by the time you get to this point. Going past this point only insured that you covered the checkpoints for now and in the future. This did effect two things from my point of view. One, it forced people to explore even if their original plan was to be conservative in their expansion. This starts to infringe on the idea of "play the game how you want." The second, interestingly enough, actual effected the paying players. For those that spent diamonds to buy expansions instead of exploring, now they had to scramble to explore areas that were previously not an interest just to continue researching. These would be less of an issue for newer players, but they definitely had a temporary negative impact on the game at the time.

 

[WolfSinger]

I posted in another thread as well as posting a suggestion that they reconsider the number of chest required to unlock each chapter and base it on rings (or equivalent # of provinces)

What I worked up used the Orc Negotiation requirement as the basis - yes it would mean that people who have been working slowly only doing the bare minimum might have to play catch up. But it would also soften the RoadBlock that many players who have been playing since the game came out have hit.

This is what I suggested:

Instead of an arbitrary number (20 or 30) provinces each chapter - they really should look at RINGS and based the number of provinces on the number to complete full rings.

To open chapter 2 you need 10 provinces - the first ring is only 6 - so you have to basically do 1 full and part of the second. - How about looking at the number of rings you think the players should be at and base the count (and difficulty) on completing full rings.

To open Chapter 2 - you have to have completed rings 1 and 2 (or equivalent # of provinces)
To open Chapter 3 - you have to have completed rings 3 and 4 (or equivalent # of provinces)
To open Chapter 4 - you have to have completed rings 5 and 6 (or equivalent # of provinces)
To open Chapter 5 - you have to have completed ring 7 (or equivalent # of provinces)
To open Chapter 6 - you have to have completed ring 8 (or equivalent # of provinces)
To open Chapter 7 - you have to have completed ring 9 (or equivalent # of provinces)
To open Chapter 8 (THE ORC CHAPTER) - you have to have completed ring 10 (or equivalent # of provinces)
(Ring 11 is where you are required to have orcs to do negotiations)
To open Chapter 9 - you have to have completed ring 11 (or equivalent # of provinces)

By resetting the chests and the fight difficulty based on this geometric pattern - you will still be encouraging scouting and province conquering - and you'll reset the difficulty to a level where the players who have been with the game since the beginning don't feel like they've been slapped in the face for playing the game the way it was designed. -- There will still be those who will be beyond the levels indicated above - (I myself am only a few provinces away from completing ring 12 so would be at the appropriate spot for opening Chapter 10 - which is not here yet.)

This allows players who have progressed faster than the devs have been able to keep up with to have a general idea of when they can reasonably expect to be able to fight / scout at reasonable difficulty / speed again and still puts slowdowns (NOT ROADBLOCKS) in place.

Of course this will not encourage as much in the way of diamond spending for expansions - although to be honest I have purchased 20 premium expansions for my city - so with the ones in the tech tree and the additional one I will get while completing ring 12 - I will still be 1 short of having all of the available expansions for my city when I complete the Wood Elves Chapter. So you still don't get ALL of the available expansions for free this way - unless you're willing to really learn the battle system and go up against "impossible" odds.


For those who don't want to work in a ring - this is why I added (or equivalent # of provinces).

And Lionsmane - before you go off on what I wrote - I have you on ignore so won't see anything you post.

 

[DeletedUser3507]

And Lionsmane should be banned in the forums, I too have him on ignore.

Nice though info wolf singer.
I am at 210 provinces and and near the end of fairies. I wanted land for my city.

They should make a ignore button.

 

[DeletedUser4417]

And Lionsmane should be banned in the forums, I too have him on ignore.

Nice though info wolf singer.
I am at 210 provinces and and near the end of fairies. I wanted land for my city.

They should make a ignore button.

And some people like jps54 live to be trolls but even bridges need their bridge dwellers.

As the Fellowship of limited intellect grows and thrives. *Sigh*

Actually I was not going to 'go off' on what you wrote Wolfsinger. I rather like the idea.

 

[Thistleknot]

Wolfsinger,
I've been doing research based on your suggestion. Currently the province requirements to open chests is almost spot on to your suggestion. Compare the Current Province Requirement columns with the Cumulative column in the Province, Neighbors, and Expansion Gains section. However your suggestion starts to have enormous jumps as you get into the outer rings (11 and beyond). By ring 15, you will have conquered enough provinces to have 60 of the 62 expansions available. Interesting note, based on the way things are currently, if you only get expansions from research and stop conquering provinces once you reach the chest requirements, then at the end of the Wood Elves (Age 9), you would only have 75 of the 100 expansions available.

Spoiler: Too Large

 

[WolfSinger]

Actually right now, we have an 11 x 10 grid with slots that were added with the Wood Elves - so 110 spots available to fill.

So if I stay on track with just the tech, the 6 I started with and the 31 I would get by ONLY clearing 190 provinces to open the Wood Elves - that's 75 out of 110 - now add the 3 you will get by clearing the anticipated 30 additional provinces to open the next chapter and you have 78. Now if they add another row or column of spots when the next chapter opens (that would probably be a row of 11 to create a 11 x 11 grid) - you now have 78 of 121.

I did the break down as well in another thread. I generated my suggested rings based on the fact you hit the requirement to have orcs to negotiate in Ring 11 - so I used completing Ring 10 to open the Orc Chapter - that puts you in the chapter where you can get Orcs to negotiate at the time you hit Ring 11.

The idea behind my adjustments was to even it out better and take players who have been here since day 1 into account before throwing up a huge roadblock that stops them from clearing provinces. The only way to have a fully functional well developed city - even with my numbers - is to buy premium expansions - which are about to have a HUGE price increase with the next update.

EDIT: Still looking at your chart - thank you for going out further than I did on my graph paper. I do see the risk of closing the gap a little too quickly at the higher levels. At that point, They could start looking at breaking into 1/2 rings or equivalent number of provinces. Plus that will start getting to be a huge number to clear just to open a chapter as well. They could also start increasing the number to gain a new expansion as well.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Here is the entirety of the discussion regarding the new province requirements that were implemented this past March:

"We have added requirements for progress in the Research Tree. This will give some additional challenges to overcome and extra rewards while progressing through researching. Anyone who has already passed a certain "lock" will be able to progress further, but to receive the reward you will have to meet the requirements."

1. The chests in the research tree are indeed locks: if you don't meet the requirements, you will not be able to start researching the technology they're on. If you have already passed this point in the research tree, you will be able to continue. This has been stated this way in the release notes for update 1.0 as well. If that wasn't clear (enough) then we apologize and we'll try to be more clear next time.

We're not talking about an Everest sized mountain you have to overcome here. The requirement to advance to chapter II is 10 provinces, 30 to advance to chapter III, 50 to advance to chapter IV, 70 to advance to chapter V, and 100 to advance to chapter VI. Even if you don't like to fight, clearing 10 provinces really isn't all that hard. If you want a full sized city, and you don't want to buy premium expansions, you will have to conquer provinces, and lots of them. Most players will be able to match the requirements easily, and they get spells as a reward, which would normally cost them relics.

We will however monitor this feature to see if the balance is correct, as we have done before with other features.

The suggestion that this information conveys the concept that many have "over conquered" anything is indeed hogwash. We are continually being led to discuss things that never happened by someone who wasn't here at the time. It is really derailing a lot of discussions.

 

[Calenmir]

This is so perfect Bobbykitty! Several have said this already and it makes far more sense than the drivel we've been handed by those defending this and placing blame on the player but proof is perfect!

You do realize they will now just find other ways to place the blame on the player? Right?

 

[DeletedUser4417]

This is so perfect Bobbykitty! Several have said this already and it makes far more sense than the drivel we've been handed by those defending this and placing blame on the player but proof is perfect!

You do realize they will now just find other ways to place the blame on the player? Right?

Actually if you go back and look the only one claiming there is 'blame placed on players' is Bobbykitty. All that has ever been stated is that the reason for the advanced players encountering such long odds in battles is because they have over-scouted and over-conquered, which is very much a thing and very much real. Point of fact is that BobbyKitty and Many others have conquered provinces well in addition to the next few chapter expansions.

 

[Calenmir]

It's not about who CLAIMED it, it's about who actually DID it and is STILL doing it.

ETA: did I not say they would find a new way to say it?

 

[DeletedUser4417]

It's not about who CLAIMED it, it's about who actually DID it and is STILL doing it.

ETA: did I not say they would find a new way to say it?

So who is blaming the players? No one has. No one EVER has. The situation was described as to what is happening and certain individuals went off their rockers and started screaming about 'stop blaming the players.'

 

[Calenmir]

If you wish to think that telling people they over scouted, hinting to people that they over scouted or insinuating that people over scouted is not blaming them fine, you aren't worth the argument, You are going to believe what you wish about your motives and words, but the facts and intent of that chest is just a few posts above this one. So you will now need to find another argument to defend your position that the player played the game wrong.

 

[DeletedUser4417]

@Calenmir

A person comes into the forums and complains that they cannot win battles and and that scouting takes 5-6+ days. They go on to explain that they are in Dwarves or Fairies chapter and have conquered 267+ provinces. This is some 77 provinces in advance of the latest released chapter. Then a person can read easily enough on the forums where people that are NOT that far ahead are winning battles and their scouting times are average of 1 day. That tells you one thing, that the person that is having difficulties has over scouted and over conquered. That is not blaming the players, that is not saying the players did anything wrong by design. But that is what you, BobbyKitty and some others take away from it.. which IS wrong.

This has been explained you and her and a few others time and time again, so frankly the other ones not worth the argument are you lot. You don't read what is written and take away only what you perceive to have heard in the message. The dynamic of the chests is clear as day as is the effect of being too far in advance of chapters that you are in. The game is meant to move at a certain pace which is exactly why the chests are there. So that you the player know where you should be in provinces. So that the player to consistently battle along needs to unlock the successive advanced scouting technologies. The chests are locks in more than just the fact that you must have this number of provinces but it also means that to continue on much father you MUST have the technology unlocked which takes time as the player must march through all the associative technology in between to GET to the next lock point.

 

[DeletedUser2396]

Seems like alot of argument over a treasure chest - look i am nearing the end of Dwarfs now - i have 207/130 looking at me at start of Fairy - it is simple just Stop Scouting - i don't know when i can scout again maybe not till i finish the Wood Elves if even at that point - all i can do now is fight in Tourneys if i so choose to fight or i cater that is it plain and simple - it is not my fault that i have been such a good negotiator up to this point i played as the game was designed to be played - you cannot blame me for the Developers faults for not explaining to any of us about these locks they put in place but there it is Road Blocks have been set in place - either Stop or continue on and it will just get harder an harder for you and eventually you will Quit - Lots have allready the ? you have to ask yourself - Will i be next to Quit?
Let the argument go it not worth all this talk

SK

 

[DeletedUser2870]

Ok, let me add something else here. I made this point somewhere else as well, and no Innodefender has even bothered to try and refute it since they cannot, but it's further proof that the whole idea of going out too far is indeed hogwash.

It is only the extreme fighting odds that make it impossible for someone to advance further out. No other limitation. But for most players this was the main way of getting there, especially since the negotiation-costs are getting to be ridiculous too. Besides that, fighting was a core part of the design, it was MEANT to be a part of the game right from the start.

- It's not the distance in itself that makes it impossible to get there. Scouting times and costs increase, but it is possible to get as far out as one wishes until the cost of the scout grows larger than the amount of gold one can store.
- The orc-requirement doesn't in itself limit players, since the option of fighting is there. So players have (theoretically) a way of circumventing the need for orcs. Except that now the fights are stacked against the players in such a way this is practically blocked as well.
- Players who are able to produce orcs aren't kept back anymore by this requirement, so all rings should be open to them anyway.
- Diamonds can be used to buy off the orc requirements and to buy off encounters when the needed goods aren't there.
- Diamonds can also be used to reduce the scouting-time to virtually 0.
- There does not seem to be any limit in the amount of provinces, nor the number of rings, that can be freed up by use of diamonds.

So, there is no 'too far out'. There is a way to reach it. But Inno prefers to leave that open only to players (or Inno-supported acoounts perhaps?) who have access to sheer unlimited stacks of diamonds (read: pay huge amounts of money) to get there.
There is no technical 'too far out'. The only real wall one can hit is the edge of the world map, and besides that the limit of the amount of gold that can be stored to pay the scouting cost.

 

[DeletedUser43]

And somewhere it shows the possible number of expansions in the 500s.

I have seen the Inno defenders also say ignorant things such as we could just scout willy nilly and that when we could win fights that there would be no stopping us from grabbing tons of land in an instant. There are tons of limitations and there always have been. Scouting costs rise and if you haven't unlocked enough tech, you simply can't scout. The scouts cost more than your main hall holds. BAM. Blocked. So you always had to keep up the tech tree or scouting was stopped.

4 day scout times are not running willy nilly. They are slow and boring and only faced by people who don't have any more advanced scouts to unlock. So it too is ridiculous and ignorant to tell people they need to unlock tech that doesn't exist.

And as we have all said 1000 times, this entire game is build around scouting and expanding. Either they have to nerf the entire game, stop this nonsense with the battles. You either don't have a city builder because you aren't supposed to trade, or have neighbors, or have land to build the city on, and you can fight, or you have a city builder where you can actually make trades, have neighbors, have land, and you can have fun with contests but the battle system needs tweaking. Only one of these two makes any sense.

Tweak the battle system.

Alternatively, they can add a bunch of advanced scouting tech to the tech tree and have us all go back and unlock them all so our fights get a lot easier. Add in a bunch of squad size upgrades so we aren't facing this silliness. They add in all kinds of other tech, why not add in something to make the game better?

 

[DeletedUser3507]

Well said, I completely agree.

 

[Thistleknot]

The dynamic of the chests is clear as day as is the effect of being too far in advance of chapters that you are in. The game is meant to move at a certain pace which is exactly why the chests are there. So that you the player know where you should be in provinces.

Lionsmane,
I have not seen anything stating that the reason for the chests was a stopping point. If you look at my post earlier in this thread (post #21), the only information about the chests when they were released was this was to encourage exploration so people would benefit from the tournaments. I also summarize from my earlier post that the chests, as presented, were more of a check point than a stopping point.

So if I stay on track with just the tech, the 6 I started with and the 31 I would get by ONLY clearing 190 provinces to open the Wood Elves - that's 75 out of 110 - now add the 3 you will get by clearing the anticipated 30 additional provinces to open the next chapter and you have 78.

And based on what Wolfsinger and I have figured out, that if you gain expansions through research and only out to the chest requirements, then by the end of the Wood Elves, you are only getting 78 of the 110 expansion space available. That's 32 expansions that I either have to pay for or suffer through the incomplete combat system that has been stacked tremendously against me. It seems a bit backward to me to make space available, but not truly accessible except by exorbitant expenses. If there was an official statement saying that this was intended so that money-paying customers could have an advantage, then I might not be happy, but I at least would understand exactly what the situation is. As it is, it seems more of an arbitrary excuse to limit the player's ability to get expansions.

I am not saying make the combats so easy that I could roll over any army in existence. I am saying that once the combat system is completely rolled out, that the designers need to look into making the combats winnable even if they are very difficult at extreme ranges. That then begs the question, "what is an extreme range?". For me, I would say anything ring beyond your current age + 4. So for me in the Wood Elves (Age 9), anything beyond ring 13 would be considered extreme.

As an end note, the need for expansions is one of the driving forces in this game. For many people, conquering provinces is the only way to gain expansions. If you limit or even completely remove that possibility beyond a point, then you have not only made an aspect of the game not entertaining anymore, but you are also frustrating the player to the point of not wanting to play.

 

[Jixel]

A person comes into the forums and complains that they cannot win battles and and that scouting takes 5-6+ days. They go on to explain that they are in Dwarves or Fairies chapter and have conquered 267+ provinces. This is some 77 provinces in advance of the latest released chapter. Then a person can read easily enough on the forums where people that are NOT that far ahead are winning battles and their scouting times are average of 1 day. That tells you one thing, that the person that is having difficulties has over scouted and over conquered. That is not blaming the players, that is not saying the players did anything wrong by design. But that is what you, BobbyKitty and some others take away from it.. which IS wrong.

This has been explained you and her and a few others time and time again, so frankly the other ones not worth the argument are you lot. You don't read what is written and take away only what you perceive to have heard in the message. The dynamic of the chests is clear as day as is the effect of being too far in advance of chapters that you are in. The game is meant to move at a certain pace which is exactly why the chests are there.

I've been playing this game since June 2015 (on EN1, July 2015 for Beta & US1), and what you have repeatedly failed to address is that we were never told not to "over-scout" or "over-conquer" until the last few months and the new battle system. To the contrary, given the rewards for scouting and conquering (KP, relics, expansions), plus repeatable and mainline quests requiring encounters to be completed and battles to be fought, the only logical way to play was to continually scout and conquer provinces (by fighting or negotiation).
And again, when the chests were introduced, it was never stated that they were a "recommended maximum", only a minimum level to have conquered at that stage of the tech tree. It's only with the introduction of the new battle system that the idea of having gone too far (and the all-consuming obsession with "balance") has been brought up.

Again:
For about 15 months: The only sensible way to play is to keep scouting and taking provinces.
Suddenly, 2 months ago: Whoa there ! Hold on ! You've gone too far ! Slow down !

Telling people who behaved logically for such a long time that they have now over-done it, as if they've been greedy in some way, well ... sounds a lot like blaming to me.

 

[DeletedUser61]

the only logical way to play was to continually scout and conquer provinces (by fighting or negotiation)

And therein lies the problem. "The only logical way" is the nub of the issue.

As well you know SINCE DAY ONE I have been advocating a "logical" efficiency strategy, which better matches the real world, wherein your benefits (keeping up with the tech tree) are fixed, and the CHALLENGE is to obtain those benefits at the lowest possible cost, so that you'll be able to show a profit.

MANY of us, who are familiar with City Builder Games,
have been using the Small Efficient City model,
perhaps in several worlds, rather than overloading a single world.