Ancient Wonders losing power in the later chapters

[Iyapo]

@hoopity These were the only not over scouted posts i could find.

In my Arendyll city, I currently have 659 provinces scouted. <edit>Without Scout's Tavern, my scout time would be 98 hours (4 days, 2 hours)

I was not overscouted at the end of chapter 19 (I had just enough completed provinces to open chapter 20, with only three remaining incomplete). My last scout time was about 4 days, 5 hours. With the advanced scouts from chapter 20, my scout time is now about 3 days, 8 hours. Sorry, I don't remember exactly, but that was pretty close.<edit 603 provinces scouted>

I'm playing a ch12 city with 304 provinces completed and a L21 Enar's is giving me 91,200 mana per scout. My scout time is 21h20m.

based off these three posts that I dug out of the last chat about Enars you would get
chapter 12, 22 hours
chapter 19, 101 hours
Chapter 20, 80 hours
chapter 21, 98 hours.


But @Henroo also pointed out:

And it was actually worse in chapter 19. The reason for this is that chapter 20 opens up with an Advanced Scouts tech. This was the first Advanced Scouts tech offered since the start of chapter 15. This stretch of 4 chapters with no Advanced Scouts techs is when scout times really get out of hand. It has been a long time, but I seem to remember my scout times were well over 100 hours in ch 19 before I got the Advanced Scouts tech at the start of ch 20 and received the -25% reduction it gave. Unfortunately chapter 21 does not have an Advanced Scouts either, so my scout times will just continue to grow while I do that chapter.

So steady increase in scout times in chapter 12-15 and a much sharper increase in chapters 16-19.

 

[Katwick]

The required Provinces, at the start of each chapter, isn't exactly "Scouting" but there aren't many good reasons for scouting anything extra.

 

[Pheryll]

The required Provinces, at the start of each chapter, isn't exactly "Scouting" but there aren't many good reasons for scouting anything extra.

Yes, but even with the scouts' tavern you won't get 80% more than what is required. This is why the change over the last few chapters is one that the Scouts' tavern cannot fix. If they intend to let the province based wonders be competitive, then a drastic change needs to be made to scouting time.

 

[Chimaera1234]

Just for another data point:
I'm in ch21 and have a L21 scouts tav (45% reduction in scout time). Just started a new scout, 3d 3h.

75 hours / 0.45 = 167 hours.

I have 751 provinces scouted.

The game is not just about space, though that's a major aspect....it's also about intent and balance. It matters what you're trying to do, most importantly for those who want to remain competitive in tournaments. I do. I just sold my Dragon Ark (Tinlug is a beast), watchtower, and dwarven bulwark, freeing up about 30 AW levels.

As far as scouting anything extra, I disagree. The benefits of Scout's Tavern are first that it opens more provinces for those few of us pushing tournament boundaries, but also enhances the benefits from AWs which benefit from completed provs, like Dragon Abbey. Mana for a spell means you don't even need the the mana sawmill.

Still, the points made in this thread are made well

 

[Pheryll]

Just for another data point:
I'm in ch21 and have a L21 scouts tav (45% reduction in scout time). Just started a new scout, 3d 3h.

75 hours / 0.45 = 167 hours.

Level 16 is actually the 45% reduction. Level 21 is the 50% reduction. Dividing by 0.45 represents the 55% reduction or a level 26 scouts' tavern. So not sure about what level you do have.

 

[Pheryll]

As far as scouting anything extra, I disagree. The benefits of Scout's Tavern are first that it opens more provinces for those few of us pushing tournament boundaries, but also enhances the benefits from AWs which benefit from completed provs, like Dragon Abbey. Mana for a spell means you don't even need the the mana sawmill.

The thing is mana wonders have always been devalued with the chapters. What was not expected by chapter 17 (when goods based on provinces completed wonders were still being offered) was that goods and orcs would suddenly have a huge increase in the next few chapters. Up till then, the developers had kept goods and orcs (and even seeds) balanced between the event buildings and the wonders.

 

[Chimaera1234]

Level 16 is actually the 45% reduction. Level 21 is the 50% reduction. Dividing by 0.45 represents the 55% reduction or a level 26 scouts' tavern. So not sure about what level you do have.

I'm at L16, 45% reduction. So I guess 136h
, my mistake

 

[hoopity]

I think we all knew the Maze of Dark Matter is bad, but I didn't notice how completed out-classed it is. Even with the mana decay reduction, maybe save 10,000+ kp and just get a couple lava eggs or burning pools? I felt so bad that I even gave it credit for 8 3-hour collections per day:

Mana per hour per square

Chapter​	9​	10​	11​	12​	13​	14​	15​	16​	17​	18​	19​	20​	21​
Maze - 1	7	8	9	11	12	13	15	16	17	19	20	21	23
Maze- 11	9	10	11	12	14	16	17	19	20	22	23	25	26
Maze- 21	10	11	12	14	16	18	20	21	23	25	27	28	30
Maze- 30	11	13	14	16	18	20	22	24	26	28	30	32	34
Mana Sawmill	15	20	26	35	46	60	69	73	75	90	113	142	177

You could triple the province multiplier for the Maze and it would stay mostly in-line with the Mana Sawmill until the curve bends upward at Chapter 18.

 

[nidoran]

Whoa, thanks @hoopity, for the super helpful information!
Could you show the result for the ETC compared to a festival merchant?
I want to build it but still unsure.
Thanks!

 

[Pheryll]

Whoa, thanks @hoopity, for the super helpful information!
Could you show the result for the ETC compared to a festival merchant?
I want to build it but still unsure.
Thanks!

The ETC graph would look similar to the sunset towers one, only a lesser amount of seeds from the ETC. (Both ETC and Sunset are based on main hall level and therefore remain proportional due to similar leveling progression).

EDIT: For exact magnitude, the Sunset Towers awards 12.5% more seeds than the ETC per day (assuming same level and that both 12 hour productions of the ETC are able to be picked up every day).

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Could you show the result for the ETC compared to a festival merchant?
I want to build it but still unsure.

The thing with the ETC is that, once you start getting other seed-producing buildings, it becomes much more important for the boost it gives to Magical Manufacturing enchantments, then for the seeds it produces.

 

[SuNaya Dark]

Question:
I am just starting Chapter 6 (Dwarves) and have a Ch 5 ORC NEST that would produce Gems (not a bad thing for my currently low numbers of stores).
Should I go ahead and build the Orc Nest now, and upgrade (or replace) it in Chapter 8?
Or should I wait until the Orc Chapter to place it in my city and produce Orcs from the start?
(I'm a hoarder in terms of game style, but I don't mind using something that's currently beneficial.)

Thanks in advance.
- SuNaya Dark

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Question:
I am just starting Chapter 6 (Dwarves) and have a Ch 5 ORC NEST that would produce Gems (not a bad thing for my currently low numbers of stores).
Should I go ahead and build the Orc Nest now, and upgrade (or replace) it in Chapter 8?
Or should I wait until the Orc Chapter to place it in my city and produce Orcs from the start?
(I'm a hoarder in terms of game style, but I don't mind using something that's currently beneficial.)

Thanks in advance.
- SuNaya Dark

Once a building is in your inventory, the chapter will not change, unless you spend the resources to level it up after placing it in your city.

 

[SuNaya Dark]

Once a building is in your inventory, the chapter will not change, unless you spend the resources to level it up after placing it in your city.

That's what I thought. Use it now for it's current benefit, then replace it with an Orc chapter version for Orc production.
Thank you, Enevhar Aldarion.

 

[Genefer]

To evaluate Ancient Wonders, I track their influence throughout my city, because Ancient Wonders are similar to a cog & wheel mechanism - or City Mechanics - they work better together.

The Heroes' Forge combined with the Pyramid of Purification, Dragon Ark, and Oracle of Fortune provide Sentient Goods which increase your city's available seeds, Standard Goods, Coins, & Supplies.

The Introduction of the Dragon Ark & Oracle of Fortune
The need for Unurium increases and the trader is switched to Unurium production reducing the city's seed production - decreasing the city's available seeds.

Ascended Goods are also introduced - requiring additional factories - unurium & standard Goods for production - decreasing the city's available Standard Goods, Coin, and Supplies. However, if you acquire Sentient Goods from other sources, you can reduce the # of Sentient Factories making room for the Ascended, and at that same and decrease the city's standard goods demand and the coins & supplies for their production.

Having the Dragon Ark & Oracle of Fortune decreases the number of Sentient factories & productions and increases the city's available seeds and standard goods - minimizing the number of seed culture buildings needed in the city.

Add in the level 30 Elvenar Trade Center MM value of 100% - enchant sentient productions for 1/2 the seed cost - level 33 Silly Soap for a 9-hr production cost 9,800 seeds enchanted the seed cost is only 4,900 seeds and you minimize the number of seed culture buildings in the city and increase the city's available seeds.

The level 35 ETC 184 seeds per MH level & a level 45 Main Hall provides 16,560 seeds per 24-hrs 662 seeds per tile for seed production + seeds saved with the ETC 100% MM enchantment effect per enchanted factory. All said and done the ETC has the potential to eliminate the need for multiple seed culture buildings.

Sunset Tower & Scouts' Tavern - why would anyone ignore this seed powerhouse?
level 35 Sunset Towers 138 seeds per Main Hall Level
level 45 Main Hall*138 seeds = 6,210 seeds per help chest
Level 31 Scouts' Tavern + 4 Help Chests
7 Help Chests*6,210 seeds = 43,470 seeds daily
Total Space required for the Sunset Towers - 21 tiles.
Total Space for Scouts' Tavern - 15 tiles
Combined - 36 tiles or 1.44 expansions - per tile 1,207.5 seeds.
This does not even account for the decreased seed decay of the Sunset



What does a chapter 21 festival merchant provide - 5,200 seeds and 6,200 culture and costs 12 tiles.


The Pyramid of Purification converts all Orc Culture - except bonus productions - into a city-wide boon - Providing Orcs, Sentient Goods, Seeds, Standard Goods, Coins, Supplies, Culture, and sometimes Population. I do not know why anyone uses Festival Merchants if they have the Pyramid or Purification, it is far more advantageous to litter the city with Orc nests than Festival Merchants.


Anyway, I'm rambling a bit.

Oh, about the Maze - I thought it a waste of space in light of my prolific use of Enchantments combined with the Dragon Abbey, however, as I have upgraded my Prosperity Towers, Elvenar Trade Center, & Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood the Enchantment demand has decreased due to the increased enchantment duration - decreasing my city's mana acquisition. However, I still use around 160 Enchantments per week, and I much prefer a compounding 4% over a compounding 10% decay of. With 6 collections per day, it provides me 55,800 mana / 1,860 mana - not top notch but when your average mana inventory is 13.5 million a 10% decay would cost me 1,350,000 mana per day - instead with my level 21 maze I lose 540,000 a difference of 810,000 mana. Making my Maze a Mana building worth 865,000 mana per day / 28,860 per tile.

I suppose if a city has a low mana production and carries a low mana inventory the maze is not worth having, but there is not another building or buildings combined costing 30 tiles that can match the value of my Maze with my city composition. So, its value, and this s true of all Ancient Wonders, is relative to the city's attributes and player's objectives.

All of my rambling can be condensed to say - the more wonders the better and their value is what the player makes of them - minimal value if used passively or optimal value by developing your city to directly leverage the Ancient Wonders' mechanics and understanding their effect on the city's resources' supply and demand in relation to optimal use of city space.

 

[Pheryll]

To evaluate Ancient Wonders, I track their influence throughout my city, because Ancient Wonders are similar to a cog & wheel mechanism - or City Mechanics - they work better together.

Perhaps, but I am looking at scaling issues where over the chapters event buildings are gaining 50% (for seeds) or 80% (for orcs and goods) over what respective wonders are producing. If this trend continues, then many AWs will have effects that are significantly dwarfed by event buildings.

You mentioned the Scout's Tavern and Sunset Towers combo. This combo has two wonders worth of leveling (which increases tournament and spire troop and negotiation costs) as opposed to just a moderate number of levels of the new chapter 21 wonder which already outdoes this combo in seed production and is set to scale with squad size as opposed to the main hall scaling of the other seed wonders. While the combo may seem nice now, in the future, the seed benefit will be dwarfed by the new wonder, especially since the squad size increases rapidly in chapter 21 and will probably continue to do so.

The issue is that some wonders are unaffected (e.g. Pyramid of Purification) while others suffer. The balance of the game has been changed, and the change has made many wonders whose scaling used to hold up to the chapter progression, now no longer able to do so.

 

[Genefer]

Sure, Antique Shop has a large seed return, but it also costs a lot of Royal Restorations, Spell Fragments & Combining Catalysts to upgrade - a lot and is far more expensive in resources than upgrading the Sunset Tower (which will be done regardless) and the Scouts' Tavern.


As for an increase in Tournament .... cost/difficulty from Ancient Wonder levels I do not know why this is such an issue, because city production increases with each upgrade too. The cost does not increase without the benefit increasing as well.

The cost does increase as I advance in research & increase Wonder levels, but does not create a noticeable hardship, because my city performance increases as well. Perhaps it is the speed of my Ancient Wonder leveling - I average 1 upgrade every 1.2 days perhaps that is why I do not notice the increase. Another contributing factor might be the number of Ancient Wonders I have, and I attempt to keep them all close to the same level. I don't know why, but I have never experienced a hardship with Ancient Wonder upgrades.

However, when I place expansions the difficulty increase is steep, but again as I continue to level up my Wonders - it smooths out again.

The question is - does the cost outweigh the benefit on the Ancient Wonder - in my experience the answer is no.

As for the value of seed/culture compared to the sunset/scouts' combo - a Chapter 21 Festival merchant provides 5,200 seeds per 24-hrs / 433.3 seeds per tile & 6,200 Culture and costs 12 Tiles.

To match the seed value provided by the Combination of the Sunset & Scouts' Tavern requires 8 Festival Merchants consuming 96 Tiles / 3.84 land expansions. Compared to 1.44 expansions. I am using the festival, because it was mentioned somewhere in the comments and because so many cities are overrun with them. The festival's do not have a better return than the Sunset/Scouts combo, because they consume 2.4 more expansions and they do not provide any of the other benefits the 2 wonders provide.

The Scouts' Tavern will be powerhouse wonder for my city affecting every Ancient Wonder with the completed province variable, increasing the value of my Enar's Embassy, the additional chests will increase my standard goods from my Bell Spire, and of course the seeds from my Sunset... and it is a tiny wonder - with a large umbrella depending on the city's Ancient Wonders.

All wonders have 2 benefits that influence city performance - I view them as primary & secondary - and in my opinion - I do not think any single culture/crafted/event buildings that outperform Ancient Wonders once their citywide influence is accounted - even when scaling, but that is based on my city and my plans going forward.