Balancing Act

[SoggyShorts]

Then why don't you stop you remind me of a broken record

Now that's just unfair.
People are complaining about having to "redo" techs that they think they already completed, and they are wrong.
Kayleegrrl has proof, and is helping by sharing information--letting people know that they did not get screwed, and shouldn't be upset.
Why would you attack one of the few positive voices on the forums? I know 300+ province players are unhappy, no need to bring down the room.

 

[DeletedUser61]

I would suggest that their efforts should be expended in adding more chapters to the game, to keep the older players happy and challenged, and NOT making changes that make it impossible for the "newer" players to even play this game!

Fewer than 5% of the players have even reached the final chapter. While I agree that the game needs to keep getting longer and longer, and new wrinkles need to be added, it's far MORE important that the game gets BROADER AND BROADER, so that the mid-level players are fully occupied.

I have been here since day one, and ALL the older players I know are furious, and many of them just walked out the door.

Very much to the point, the game was pretty skimpy during the first year or so, and many of the (more naive) players focused on steamrolling the game by producing tons of goods, and negotiating a great many provinces.

It's the various puzzles and tradeoffs that keep the game interesting, and if somebody can simply blow through the game then the game becomes trivial. So to BROADEN the game, and thereby keep it interesting, the developers have built three fences:

1. You must acquire at least a minimum number of provinces to progress to the next chapter. This prevents folks (like me) from playing a city with a very small footprint, and then going back and smashing lower level troops.
2. You must have Orcs to negotiate beyond ring 10. This prevents folks (like Bobbykitty) from overwhelming the provinces by manufacturing tons of goods.
3. If you scout more than the provinces that are required for each chest, you're going to be fighting/negotiating tougher battles once you get there, which further caps the folks who have been using scouting to soak up excess cash.

The devs have said clearly that players were "getting too far ahead" so they had to stop them. Whatever. All that means to a player is that they have stopped us from playing a video game we liked playing.

Not quite. You've been stopped from destroying a video game that a great many of us enjoy playing.

"Helping Others" is usually presented as a "very good thing" but if you're actually trivializing the game, that's detrimental.

So InnoGames now has the bones of the game pretty much in place, and they're now focusing on the portions of the game where the model was too shallow for the long haul.

• The world maps are being consolidated, so that active players will have active neighbors.
• The battle engine is being reworked so the that fights make more sense, and so that ALL of the classes will continue to be important, rather than rolling over everything with Paladins and Golems
• I hope that the NEXT focus will be on the Ancient Wonders
  • We need a history tab, so that we can verify who did what, and respond in kind
  • We need a global list of available AWs, with some decent filters, including the status of your current investments
  • We need some way to use off-brand Runes, perhaps by allowing unwanted Runes to be contributed to ANY Ancient Wonder, in lieu of 20 Knowledge Points.
  • We need Knowledge Points packets, that can be left in the inventory until they are needed for a tactical move whereby you can capture one of the five reward slots for each level.

So the interesting question is which OTHER portions of the game need to be broadened, and probably made more difficult/complex?

 

[DeletedUser]

Soggy that what you wrote in a other tread so screwed or shaft

Just tired of all the negativity on the forums I guess. A little grumpy- sorry for the snark. I actually like you, and you've done a lot for the community.
Sadly you got the shaft with recent changes, as did anyone who played a lot. I wish there had been new chapters released faster, ideally fast enough to keep up with very active players.
I can only imagine how hard it would be to balance a game around both players that spend 5-10h a day on a game, and average players, where the average is 20-30 minutes (numbers I just made up)
Lots of things could have been done with hindsight: MH capacity limiting scouts, fog on provinces beyond ring X at chapter Y, dwarf/fairy/orc/woodelf limits.
My favorite would be if expansion squares only opened up with each chapter cleared, and that way you would "max out" your city and have no reason to be upset at not being able to fight for more space.
Sadly, none of these things were in place when you started playing a new and unsurprisingly flawed game. Now the Devs are back peddling and trying to do what they think is best for the future of the game.
A great example of how no one complains about pre-existing limits is the goods needed to cater early on. Even before the battle changes, very early if you are a fast explorer you encounter provinces you cannot beat, and cannot negotiate (because you don't even make tier 2 goods yet) and that was totally fine because you had no expectations. More importantly you could look ahead in your tech tree and see light at the end of the tunnel.
In your case there were no limits other than painful scouting times, and now the light at the end of the tunnel is very faint indeed (chapter 11? 12?)

What inno has done (if tweaked and balanced well) will ultimately be good for most players and the longevity of the game. I sincerely hope they find a viable solution for the rest of you.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Bobbykitty accused a lot of players of "player-shaming" for agreeing with the devs. That's it, that's all we did. And because we agree with the devs, bobbykitty started calling me, and others like me names. She has tried to shame us into shutting up. She wasn't even subtle about it. Now you are singing her song.

The devs started player shaming. If you agree with the devs for their positions then yes, you are supporting player shaming. I think it is despicable that the devs are shaming the very people who without their support there would be no game. I find it shocking. I absolutely will stand up against such awful behavior. If you support player shaming, then yes, I stand up against you too. I do. I don't know why anyone would support such behavior. I didn't call you any names. I do vehemently protest player shaming and blaming players for being "too far ahead". That is ridiculous.

Those stupid tournament chests didn't even exist for most of the time any of us were playing. Even if they did, you're a foolish player if you aren't always sending out your scouts. Those scouts take a long time. If you let them sit there, you'll never get that time back and just have to wait a few more months, or even years to be able to build anything. I mean, if staring at a static city floats your boat, who am I to argue, but you can't "play" this game without some room for things. Blaming players for being "too far ahead" is equivalent to saying "you are playing this game....shame on you". So yeah, that is ridiculous.

 

[DeletedUser43]

(Please forgive the double post, but this will be really way too long if I combine posts).

Not quite. You've been stopped from destroying a video game that a great many of us enjoy playing.

My heavens Katwijk. Destroying the game? Wow. By what? Playing it? Are you so bitterly jealous of others who had a higher score than you? What possible difference could it be to your little world if I have another expansion? OMG.....stop the game....shut it down!!!.....Bobbykitty might get an expansion! Everyone DUCK!!!

The battle engine is being reworked so the that fights make more sense, and so that ALL of the classes will continue to be important, rather than rolling over everything with Paladins and Golems

If they had done that I would have cheered. But they didn't. They made the enemies much stronger and made the battles so much harder. They were already too hard. No one bothers with fighting because it sucks to lose all the time. It isn't fun. What is wrong with allowing players to win a battle....oh that's right....they might get an expansion and blow up Elvenar.

It isn't good for anyone at any stage to be bored out of their minds. This is a building game and we need space to build things. No space, no game. What they did isn't fixing anything. That is just making this already too slow too boring game even more slow and more boring. The newcomers can't win a fight. The old timers can't win a fight. A few tiny members of the community can. So, only a few tiny members of this community have much of a game. But then, even those players will win a few battles and be stopped. Stopped from what? FROM PLAYING.

This is a game. It is for fun. For playing. It doesn't help the game by stopping people from playing the game.

Maybe the goal is to stop anyone from playing this game except brand new suckers who haven't learned that Inno will make all their purchases foolish and useless if they stick around. Just ask all those people who spent thousands on this game. What fools they, huh? They got "too far ahead" because they gave Inno money. Those slimy jerks, how could they?

 

[DeletedUser]

Fewer than 5% of the players have even reached the final chapter. While I agree that the game needs to keep getting longer and longer, and new wrinkles need to be added, it's far MORE important that the game gets BROADER AND BROADER, so that the mid-level players are fully occupied.

Very much to the point, the game was pretty skimpy during the first year or so, and many of the (more naive) players focused on steamrolling the game by producing tons of goods, and negotiating a great many provinces.

Katwijk, it would be much easier to agree with you & accept your statements as fact/correct if you could prevent yourself from being so condescending to those of us that you have decided have taken advantage of the game or are somehow trying to "ruin" it because we are complaining or frustrated with some of the changes.

You accuse players of being "naive" and who must have "steamrolled" the game if they have accumulated larger amounts of provinces, yet as has been explained in many past threads here, once upon a time, there was no "suggestion" of how many provinces anyone should or should not have completed - that only came into play when the treasure chests at the beginning of chapters were implemented, and even at that point, no messages in the game were warning players that if they went *farther* than suggested, that they would run into trouble. In fact, no warning or comments about going "too far" were given at all until the update where restrictions were placed on players via the Orc costs to negotiate outside of Ring 10. In fact, I will agree with others who have said that Inno themselves encouraged province scouting & fighting by offering repeating quests that rewarded players for fighting & accumulating relics, which at those times could only be gained via provinces.

If it is true that only 5% of players have reached the final chapter, then are you saying that only those in the final chapter (Orcs right now) are upset? I know that's not exactly true, seeing as how I was in Dwarves during the Orc Cost update, and am now in Fairies at this change, and I was and am frustrated at the changes.

I agree with you that the game was "skimpy" in the first year or so, and I agree that some changes are needed & even welcomed. We can discuss "balance" all darn day (and in fact, I believe we have discussed it in previous threads), but I do not see how you or the devs or in fact any other player can accuse those of us who you deem as having "scouted too far" as ever being aware that we were doing so, or how you can say that anyone has "steamrolled" the game in any way when no one has ever been able to get farther than the game has allowed. If someone paid large amounts of goods to negotiate a province - they paid for that by putting time into the game to earn coin & supplies so they could pay the negotiation fee. If someone fought a battle to win a province - they paid for that by putting time into the game to train troops & learn how to fight.

Yes, there are variables in the game depending when a player started playing - some completed lots of provinces in the past & never earned runes for them, but others came along & got runes from the get go. Some players landed in a great FS right away & benefited from that, and some players may have started off struggling with hardly any active neighbors. Certainly some things are the luck of the draw, but ultimately, no player can get ANYWHERE in this game without completing the steps.

BBRC - I appreciate your comments, above. Hindsight certainly is 20/20, but it's true that many players (including myself) continue to be negatively affected by quite a lot of the recent changes. I know for some it seems like the Forum is full of negativity, and perhaps that is so. It's like anything else in life - few people take the time to write out a comment card for great service, but many people will complain about poor service. And while that seems unfair, the thing is - we are all in some ways "paying" customers, even if a player doesn't buy diamonds. This Forum is here because the devs want our feedback, and people are motivated to share their comments when they feel frustrated.

I have posted positive comments on the Forum before, and I think most active Forum members are good at doing that when something they like or appreciate is happening. At the same time though, I encourage everyone to think about how it feels to feel ignored or to go without acknowledgement, even if your point is not the most popular one. In all of these changes, devs have asked for feedback on the Beta Forum, and it sure seems to me that the majority of the feedback on some recent changes was overwhelmingly negative. But, rather than communicate with players or offer any kind of validation, acknowledgment or even reward to unhappy players, we are actually accused as somehow having cheated the game or been poor sports or unfair players in some way because otherwise, why would we possibly be mad at the game changes? This attitude is completely dismissive of what many feel are valid complaints, and that's where a lot of disagreement on this forum comes from.

Now, I know Inno is out to make money - no arguments from me on that. But customer service exists for a reason, and Inno has, in fact, invited our comments by creating this Forum. All opinions welcome, you know?

I am glad that for SOME PLAYERS, the changes have worked out for the best, or at least will work out well if those players continue playing. But I've played this game for like a year & I feel like my perspective has merit too.

Anyway, this is rather a novel, isn't it? LOL!

 

[DeletedUser43]

I am really curious about something. Who has this worked out for? What players have benefited by any of this? I keep hearing that and it just hit me....I can't imagine a single player on any level who things got better for. Some can still find a way to eek out a fight or two, but all of us had our armories nerfed, all of us are facing harder enemies, all of us have weaker troops. So who did things get better for?

 

[SoggyShorts]

We need some way to use off-brand Runes, perhaps by allowing unwanted Runes to be contributed to ANY Ancient Wonder, in lieu of 20 Knowledge Points.

Unless this, or something like this happens, AW will need a total balancing pass. There are a few that could triple in "value" and still not be worth building.

What players have benefited by any of this?

The major benefit for me has been making fights more interesting, no more 100% golem army.
It has certainly slowed things down a bit, but I'm willing to trade fast mindless auto-fighting for slower harder interesting fights.

 

[DeletedUser43]

There is a new change coming that somehow makes the blooming trader guild a lot less important too. Something about the trader. I'm not sure. You can go look at it in the beta forum. They make these wonders, then blame the players for having them be too powerful, so they nerf them. The made the tournaments and then blamed the customers for getting too many relics and having too many goods because of the bonuses, so they nerf fighting to balance that back out. That TOS should have the letter P in place of the T and that would describe it better. By the time you finally get the stupid wonders built to where they do something, the redesign the game so the thing is useless.

 

[DeletedUser]

Travel i have the same opinion as you and Boby .
What is in my post above is Soogy saying that we did get shaft , in Soogy post is saying we did not get screwed,
Thats why i wrote shaft or scewed

 

[SoggyShorts]

Travel i have the same opinion as you and Boby .
What is in my post above is Soogy saying that we did get shaft , in Soogy post is saying we did not get screwed,
Thats why i wrote shaft or scewed

Wut?

 

[DeletedUser3111]

I have actually lost count of how many times I have posted before and after images of the research tree in one final attempt to get people to understand.

@Gwenevir I don't twist anything either, I also stand behind every statement I make and I post facts with supporting data.

Before and after trees are not actually especially relevant?
I think the more useful information to impart is this:

Techs researched-Old Squad size-New Squad size
0- 12- 6
1- 24- 9
2- 36- 15
3- 48- 24
4- 60- 36
5- 72- 51
6- 84- 69
7- 96- 90
8-108-114
9-120-141
10-132-171
...
20-252-636
...
30-372-1401
etc


Basically, the thing is, at lower levels of tech, you lost squad size, often quite a lot. In the first or second ages, you are going from starting to feel like a lot of troops to half or less of your squad size. In age 3, the moved back tech mostly balances it out, and by age 4 you have as much or more than you had before. At higher ages, where once you looked at your troops as having 20+ squads ready going down to 10-12 squads ready. Treants now take a lot less space, so those numbers looked especially low. Either side of the change had some pretty disheartening numbers to look at.

The other half of the equation is that the enemy squad size grew, by far more than the player size did, at least at my level.

I am not going to put my opinion of the changes either way, but I hope this makes the changes more clear to people.

 

[Mykan]

What players have benefited by any of this?

In respect to benefit one area I am aware of is lower level players now have fairer fights in tournaments. Fighting with sword I against golem/paladin II or III was an impossible fight, that is now gone and fighting is an option rather then catering only.

There will also be those who are neutral on the matter, as I have some of these in fellowships on some worlds.

The other half of the equation is that the enemy squad size grew, by far more than the player size did, at least at my level.

Thank you, I think you are the only person I have seen who mentions this aspect. I don't know about others but I wouldn't have a clue on the enemy squad size pre-update only what it is now compared to me once I caught up the techs.