Chap 21 AWs

[Dhurrin]

Both the new AWs do have their uses.

The Vallorian School of Sorcery will add Vallorian Guards for those who like free troops and for those who use the Cauldron a lot it will make it WAY easier to use 25 ingredients, thus making the chance of success 100%, and with a few levels will even do that while picking more of the same ingredients to try and improve the chances of a certain effect.

Maman's Antique shop is a pretty good supplier of Seeds, which can probably completely eliminate the need for Festival Merchants or most other sources of Seeds. The ascended goods awarded for community work is nice, but since the amount of community work gathered from residences is low is hardly amazing.

I don't mind needing CC-spells, Spellfragments and RR-spells for upgrading. At least not in itself. CC-spells are relatively easy to come by, especially after Tinlug has made it's appearance.
For some players the Spellfragments may be an obstacle.
And the need for RR-spells is pretty bloody steep. I mean, 10 for lvl 1, ok. The 20 for lvl 6, mwah. But then 30, 40, 50, 60 and finally 70 for the next times the ring needs to be filled, that's going to be a different story. That makes 280 for each (if one wants to bring them above lvl 30).

Oh well, I guess I have time to collect a crapload more of RR-spells.
With 7/week from the Oracle and maybe another 13/week from the tourney it means only (2x280)-30 (already spent)=510 more. So say half a year, provided I won't need any for anything else.

 

[Deborah M]

I am not even the slightest bit interested in the 2 new AW. The RR spells and CC have their own specific use and it isn't upgrading AWs. Just one more stupid move on Inno's part to ignore for me. That list is growing at least weekly

@Dhurrin I sent you a message about this.

 

[Chimaera1234]

I also will never build the new AWs, almost certain

 

[Dhurrin]

I am not even the slightest bit interested in the 2 new AW. The RR spells and CC have their own specific use and it isn't upgrading AWs. Just one more stupid move on Inno's part to ignore for me. That list is growing at least weekly

@Dhurrin I sent you a message about this.

I got your PM, thanks!

The CC-spells, well, no issue for me. With both the Dragon Ark and Tinlug up I have more than enough of them.

I personally also have no issue with the spellfragments, but I know a lot of players do, so that already can become an issue. Tinlug provides a way for advanced players to gain way more CC spells, but there still aren't a lot of sources for spellfragments.

The RR-spells however; the requirement for those is pretty steep. And since there are even fewer sources of RR-spells than spellfragments is probably going to be the limiting factor.
- Again, as a longtime player, I was able to benefit from the cheaper premium expansions way back then, so I have more room than most. Not everyone has that advantage.
- And not everyone will find the space for the Oracle.
- And not every player will be in a FS that does 5,6 or more bonuschests in the tourney every week.

But it's almost mandatory to have at least 2 of those advantages to be able to make the most of these AWs. Unless of course one wants to spend years trying to get them to even mid-level. In which case there may be newer chapters with AWs with (more or less) the same requirements.
That is, if the game goes on, as Inno seems determined to piss off their loyal long-time playerbase.

 

[Pheryll]

But it's almost mandatory to have at least 2 of those advantages to be able to make the most of these AWs. Unless of course one wants to spend years trying to get them to even mid-level. In which case there may be newer chapters with AWs with (more or less) the same requirements.

Mid-level seems to be the aim of the new progression (which seems to be a copy-paste of the scout's tavern progression). After level 16 the increase is the same small increment, and unlike the Scouts' Tavern you are increasing a bonus percentage instead of reducing a penalty (reducing a penalty means 1% less than 50% is as much of a decrease multiplicatively as 2% less than 100%, while for a bonus 2% more than 200% is as much an increase multiplicatively as 1% more than 100%).

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

While the chapter 21 Wonders may be useful, I am not going to use something which basically costs diamonds to build and upgrade. 10 RRs is equal to 1 blueprint which is equal to 300 diamonds. And if I have used some of my blueprints and all my RRs to upgrade needed buildings from chapter 20 to 21, there is no way I will build these, so no thank you.

 

[Glandeh]

One word came to mind when I saw the upgrade costs of these wonders: ridiculous.

 

[Dhurrin]

While the chapter 21 Wonders may be useful, I am not going to use something which basically costs diamonds to build and upgrade. 10 RRs is equal to 1 blueprint which is equal to 300 diamonds. And if I have used some of my blueprints and all my RRs to upgrade needed buildings from chapter 20 to 21, there is no way I will build these, so no thank you.

You do not NEED diamonds to get RR-spells. Nor do you NEED to use blueprints to get them.
But as I mentioned, I'm in a position where I can do this, a lot of players will not be. And in some ways never may be, although the introduction of a chance to gain in-game diamonds does help a little bit.

But all that was the whole point of the post. The need for RR-spells is way too steep in my opinion.
But then again, the same goes for the spell-fragments, the need for those is pretty bloody steep too.

 

[Mykan]

For me RR is not an issue its the CC and spell frags. Especially if I plan on doing any crafting rather than just saving them. I don't have a town full of event buildings and the thing I use most I can craft if needed. Regardless I would not be planning on both anytime soon as you will get stuck sooner or later. I will likely go with the school of sorcery, I haven't needed anything but trader for seeds since halflings and as mentioned the community works amount is meh so the A goods wont be anything great.

 

[Vigali]

Lots of discussion about how expensive these AWs are, but I thought I'd just throw the actual numbers out there to fully put the massive cost into perspective. To fully level just one of these AWs to level 35, the costs are:

KP: 35,000
RRs: 280
CCs: 1,260
Spell Fragments: 1,260,000

Just astronomical. I'm personally of the opinion that the spell fragments are actually the worst (I know, I know -- RRs!). Folks in top-tier FS's doing 19 chests can earn enough RRs to fully level this in ~12 weeks (faster if they have Oracle), and even folks in mid-level FS's just hitting 10 chests can get there within 24 weeks. That's not to say you *want* to spend the RRs on this, but just that the time to earn RRs may be the least of our problems here.

The CCs are problematic, but the Vallorian School actually helps you out quite a bit there (at level 35, with the time reduction, you craft 80 CCs/week compared to 28/week without). CC production obviously varies widely; for some cities, it may take less time to earn these than to earn the RRs, but for many the CCs will take longer than the RRs.

But the spell fragments are a different animal. I don't really have numbers for how many spell fragments I earn per week on average from Spire (if anyone does, please let me know!), but I'd be surprised if it was more than 20k-30k. If that's the case, I'm looking at between 42-63 weeks to earn enough fragments to level this up. Of course, this also assumes that I am never crafting anything in the MA at any point over those 42-63 weeks. As one of my FSmates mentioned, if I'm not crafting mil buildings and pet food for that long, my city will absolutely go out of business.

Overall, I just don't know what they were thinking with these costs. Well, no, I guess that's a lie -- I know exactly what they were thinking with these costs. They are targeting older cities with massive Library-farm stockpiles of CCs and spell fragments, and trying to materially decrease those stockpiles. The problem with this approach is that it makes the building completely unaffordable to anyone (read: most players) who don't have those stockpiles.

It's bad design, and frankly it's lazy design. There are much better ways to do this.

 

[Vigali]

I guess if I'm going to complain about the cost, it would only be fair to also talk about the value -- which is considerable for both of these AWs.

Vallorian School
3 benefits: Produces Vallorian guards, reduces cauldron ingredient cost, reduces MA production times.

Vallorian Guards: This is straightforward and like many of the 'free troops' buildings, but still worth specifically pointing out the value. At level 35, in Ch21 with all Squad Size researches completed, this will give you 6,150 Vallorian guards every 3 hours. That's almost like getting a free extra Merc Camp that sits there making Vallorian guards at no cost to you. Its value diminishes because of the 3hr pickup time (meaning you're likely going to get 5 per day, not 8 per day, because you probably sleep at some point), but even when factoring that in, it will produce as much as your Merc Camp running 58% of the time producing Vallorian guards. Another way to think about it: it will produce as many Vallorian guards are 44 Vallorian Valor buildings, which would cost you 462 squares to put down. Given that Vallorian Guards are arguably the best heavy melee troop available, and given that Merc camp makes many other exceptional units, the value here can't be overstated -- you can spend a lot more time building Blossom Mages, Frogs, and Rangers and overall have a much more powerful army at your disposal.

Cauldron Ingredient Cost Reduction: This is super difficult to quantify. I've mentioned in previous posts that "Success Rate" is a meaningless number (what you really care about is your success rate of buffs you actually want), so the value here is more complicated than just saying that this AW will guarantee more success with your potions. When used properly, this could help you fine-tune things and target specific buffs even better. There's value there, but again, difficult to really quantify in any meaningful way.

MA Production Time Reduction: This one is actually huge. At Level 35, this building gives 65% reduction to MA time – meaning instead of 28 CCs/week, I will be able to make 80 CCs/week. That basically means that this building (at level 35) produces 7.5 CCs/day. That is, of course, outstanding. It’s almost like having *2* extra MAs in your city, just building CCs. Again, the value here is amazing.

My Verdict: This AW rocks. I want it, and I want to level it up to max. But given its cost and my current spell frag production, this will likely take years. And realistically, even though I love it, I may not build it, because the marginal benefit at a low level (which it will surely be for a very long time) might not be worth it.

Antique Shop
2 benefits: Seeds production, Ascended Goods production.

Seeds Production: On its face, this building becomes the new Seeds master, supplanting the brand new Grove of Gloweseeds. At Level 35, it will produce 55,619 seeds/day, at a rate of 3,371 seeds/day/sq. That's 7.33x more efficient than the Grove, which means you're basically saving 115.44 squares. Unfortunately, you won't actually see all of those seeds because of the 3hr pickup time. Instead, you'll pick up 5 per day, meaning 34,762 seeds/day, at a rate of 2107 seeds/sq/day. That's 4.6x more efficient than the Grove, saving you 66.3 squares. Still super efficient, but its value is steadily decreasing, isn't it?

Ascended Goods: The secondary bonus is highly city-dependent, based on what your Residences look like, how many you set to Community Work, and what your culture bonus looks like. For me, I have 22 Magic Residences out right now, and with my culture bonus they make about 140 CW/day, for a total CW production of 3080/day. At level 35, this building would give me an extra 100k Ascended Goods per day. That's pretty good, but also problematic, for a few reasons. First, if you have a Vallorian Seal Tower, these AWs are in direct conflict (one needs you to set your Residences to gold, the other to CW), so you're going to be sacrificing the benefit of one for the other. Second, until the next chapter is released, there is *zero* reason to be making Community Work -- and realistically, we have no way of knowing how much we'll need to make in the future. This whole portion of the AWs value might only actually be realized sporadically, for short periods of time, meaning its overall value is substantially reduced.

My Verdict: It's good not great. The Ascended Goods part is completely inconsequential to me. The seeds production is good, but absolutely not worth the astronomical costs. And even when I consider just leveling it to level 5 (so it's still a solid, efficient seeds producer), I can't justify it. It's only slightly better than other valid options for seeds, and those options don't make tourney/spire harder. This is a big fat no.

 

[Dhurrin]

Lots of discussion about how expensive these AWs are, but I thought I'd just throw the actual numbers out there to fully put the massive cost into perspective. To fully level just one of these AWs to level 35, the costs are:

KP: 35,000
RRs: 280
CCs: 1,260
Spell Fragments: 1,260,000

Just astronomical. I'm personally of the opinion that the spell fragments are actually the worst (I know, I know -- RRs!). Folks in top-tier FS's doing 19 chests can earn enough RRs to fully level this in ~12 weeks (faster if they have Oracle), and even folks in mid-level FS's just hitting 10 chests can get there within 24 weeks. That's not to say you *want* to spend the RRs on this, but just that the time to earn RRs may be the least of our problems here.

The CCs are problematic, but the Vallorian School actually helps you out quite a bit there (at level 35, with the time reduction, you craft 80 CCs/week compared to 28/week without). CC production obviously varies widely; for some cities, it may take less time to earn these than to earn the RRs, but for many the CCs will take longer than the RRs.

But the spell fragments are a different animal. I don't really have numbers for how many spell fragments I earn per week on average from Spire (if anyone does, please let me know!), but I'd be surprised if it was more than 20k-30k. If that's the case, I'm looking at between 42-63 weeks to earn enough fragments to level this up. Of course, this also assumes that I am never crafting anything in the MA at any point over those 42-63 weeks. As one of my FSmates mentioned, if I'm not crafting mil buildings and pet food for that long, my city will absolutely go out of business.

Overall, I just don't know what they were thinking with these costs. Well, no, I guess that's a lie -- I know exactly what they were thinking with these costs. They are targeting older cities with massive Library-farm stockpiles of CCs and spell fragments, and trying to materially decrease those stockpiles. The problem with this approach is that it makes the building completely unaffordable to anyone (read: most players) who don't have those stockpiles.

It's bad design, and frankly it's lazy design. There are much better ways to do this.

But things are also dependant on player style/preference/city.
I have all the AWs I wanted to place already up. The ones I wanted to max are either already maxed out at lvl 35, or getting close, the others are at lvl 30 because I don't feel a need to bring them up higher, mostly because they will only have 1 effect that will improve and it's not the one I'm interested in.
If I ever become interested in ranking I probably will place the Throne and up that (with 1097 AW levels at present (and still going up) I'm pretty sure that would make an impact on my score). So for now, these new ones are basically what I can focus on to the exclusion of others, as there are not that levels in my other AWs left.

- The KPs...well, those are just not an issue. As in not at all. I tend to average getting something near 50 KPs a day, every day, especially if I average it over a year. Plus about 300-400 additional ones every week from the tourney. And that doesn't count other sources yet. And have close to 30.000 KP-instants in stock. So no, just not an issue.

- CC's? my stock right now is 'low' meaning just under 1.000. But I have a bunch of unharvested chests from the MA hanging around for which the Dragon Abbey will grant me 12 CC's each. Plus Tinlug which can get me more when I want. And the ones I get weekly from the Spire.

- The spellfragments...again, I am 'low' meaning just under a million. But with the amount of spells and instants in my inventory I can disenchant enough to triple that and still have more than I need, meaning being able to cast spells at will and have instants galore.

So my bottleneck is the RR spells, because there are relatively few ways to get them. As I stated before, I can expect about 20 a week and that already is way more than most players.
(Please note; My Vallorian School is already being upped to 11 and the Antique Shop is already working on progressing to lvl 8, so my stocks are in part low because I have been upping them in a pretty fast pace).

Now the Cauldron Cost reduction actually can be a major thing. My Vallorian School is now going to lvl 11. The result is that I can ALWAYS use 25 ingredients, so each brewing will succeed. Not only that, but I can now easily use multiples of just a few ingredients and still use 25, thus insuring success, but also greatly increasing the chance of the effect I want. With 5 potions, the chance of getting the effect I desire is huge. Granted, side effect is that the chance of triggering the same effect multiple times is too, but that gives one the chance to select the best one offered.
And of course I don't mind the free troops. I always like extra troops. And since I'm playing as an elf, they are in some ways better than the treants because they have that extra range of attack.

The Seedproduction from the Antique Shop is already pretty substantial. I usually had a bunch of Festival Merchants out, I no longer need them, so in the end it still saves quite some space.