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Elven Mages

Discussion in 'Battle Help' started by samidodamage, Jul 28, 2018.

  1. samidodamage

    samidodamage Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2017
    This issue was brought up in another thread by @Risen Malchiah recently & I decided to dedicate a thread to discussing the different ways to use these units. I found this thread where the last post from @Mykan gives a good comparison of all units of the same type:
    https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index....rent-units-of-the-same-type.13248/#post-73938
    Before my time, there apparently was a nerf to the Sorceress & I get confused when reading older threads as I have no frame of reference for how they were before. I'd like to narrow the discussion just to comparing them as they are now.
    Risen's question was how to use the Sorceress with her limited range. I've seen it discussed in other battle threads that Sorceress was underutilized; I'm almost sure @SoggyShorts said something that caused me to rethink always going with Blossoms. I've tried her out more and find I can use her, but I have trouble describing the specific provinces where she has value. I just got the Blossom II promotion, & will soon get the Banshee II promotion, so I've been using Blossom I & Sorceress III & realize my experience may change with the higher star troops now.
    At this point, I've figured out that Sorceress is stronger, does well when terrain is favorable and lasts longer when taking hits is inevitable (ex: from enemy light range). Blossom works well against shorter ranged enemies and doesn't hold up as well as Sorceress when there are enemy light range units present. This is especially true in higher province rounds where enemy units are all 3 star. So, maybe I'm seeing a preference for Sorceress over Blossom when Mages are being used as support instead of key units. There is an obvious advantage to using Blossom for primarily heavy melee enemies in the absence of enemy light range whether she is used as the support or key unit. I've not used Banshee often, and usually only in lower province rounds against mostly heavy range enemies to conserve the stronger troops for the higher rounds. With her range issues and still a lvl 1, I just haven't been able to use her much; maybe that will change when she gets stronger.
    I'd really love to hear from other Elves about how they decide which Mage to use and when.
     
    Risen Malchiah likes this.
  2. kctanzen

    kctanzen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2017
    I dont manually fight often .. still getting my tactics up to snuff.
    I have sorceress 3 and my blossom is still at 1.
    It does 'seem' that the ability for Blossoms to stay farther away helps them a great deal.
    They die so fast when Mistwalkers / Rangers are around it really is borderline dark humor.

    For me, the downside is that my training facilities churn out anything from the barracks so much faster than the other 2 types that the possible advantage of my beloved Blossoms is offset by the quantity of troops I can produce in a given amount of time.

    Also very interested to learn more and do some experimenting with what more experienced folks have to say here!!
     
    samidodamage likes this.
  3. samidodamage

    samidodamage Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2017
    Not sure where you are in the game, but once I added Shrewdy Shrooms (unlocked at the end of Orcs & already had Bulwark), I take care of training Blossoms while I sleep. My squad size is 1140 and my training size is 1936. Since I got the Flying Academy, the Merc Camp speeds have improved, but they're still 2hr50min per slot. My biggest problem is having unlocked the Ranger, and I like him, too, lol! My Blossoms got a little low when I was getting Rangers trained up, but I'm in the process of catching them up now, by just putting in a few to extend my training queue every night.
     
  4. Risen Malchiah

    Risen Malchiah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2017
    Thank you. I'm eager to see input from our advanced fighters.

    Early on, I struggled using sorcs compared to my human city since the priests can stay out of range of ALL heavy melee and even some light melee, making it possible to win a flawless victory without suffering a single loss. With sorcs, that's impossible without terrain, especially against the paladin-like HM with their extended range.

    Now, I find my elven city's Blossoms occasionally outperform my human city's priests. Sure, the priests are slightly stronger but the Blossoms have a better initiative, so they often go before the enemy mages. In a steel tournament, for instance, if an archer isn't viable due to terrain, the blossoms can either hit first or maneuver out of range whereas the priests may be forced to take the first hit.

    Maybe the Sorcs would be good against heavy ranged? But if the enemy HR is paired with LM or HM, I'd rather keep my distance.

    I was training them at night as well. They really started to shine once I was able to upgrade the Merc Camp and Flying Academy to the point where they train as quickly as the barracks troops.
     
    samidodamage likes this.
  5. Mykan

    Mykan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    I go sorceress unless the fight favours the blossom mage (or banshee), although I use that for pretty much any unit.

    Province structure always has 2 favourable unit types and 1 counter one. So, ignoring the counter unit for now:
    • If mixed of the favourable type I go sorcs (barracks unit)
    • If mostly 1 favourable type I go the speciality troop - blossom or banshee
    I vary this based on certain factors:
    • Training times of troops - this varies based on chapter, building improvements and wonders. If the times are close enough I call it even. I had a time when it took me double the time to train anything in training grounds so I just ignored those troops as I felt it wasn't worth it.
    • Technology - I have no switching troops between my I and II troops or my II and III. If however I am picking between say a sorc III and a blossom I then I am more inclined to go with the sorc (all other things been equal)
    • Counter unit - If I feel I need more range for the counter unit then I will favour blossoms over Sorcs
    There is no set rules, it takes practice and experience to find what units work best. A lot of people underestimate the sorceress and feel the blossom is better hands down. However I have had fights the blossoms have died miserably in only for the sorcs to replace them and be victorious (often convincingly). The composite fights are the hard ones and sometimes your other troop selection can also be the difference between a win and a loss.
     
  6. Risen Malchiah

    Risen Malchiah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2017
    Thank you @Mykan. I did ultimately find my unused army of sorcs useful in the recent crystal tournament to preserve my treants for other rounds. (Used sorcs when facing mostly heavy ranged and enchantresses but no enemy dogs.) I found that the blossoms were often targeted by the cannoneers and died very quickly while the sorcs sometimes lasted an extra turn. Though despite the enchantresses, I still find crystal easier with mostly treants on autofight. I hate fighting manually with treants since the fights seem to take forever.

    When facing heavy melee though, I can't see the sorcs ever outshining the blossoms who can effectively stay out of range and might never take a hit at all.
     
    samidodamage and shimmerfly like this.
  7. qaccy

    qaccy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    All else being equal, range is king. If you can't outrange your opponent (and do so until they're defeated), that's when the other stats start to matter. You're likely going to get hit by enemy Cannoneers and Frogs at least once before you're able to attack them, so you're generally better off with the much more resilient Banshees or Sorceresses in battles heavy with them, or heavy range in general since no matter what you're using you're definitely going to start getting hit after the point you're able to hit them. Orc Strategists will be able to retaliate against them once per turn, but the damage is pretty negligible.

    Against mostly heavy melee, definitely go with Blossoms. They can avoid being hit the longest, and they also have the highest attack power among the mage units (except for 3-star Banshees, until they get their own 3-star promotion). This usually doesn't count for much, but there are time where it's possible to destroy an enemy squad in a single blow, and this is usually only possible with Blossoms. You can imagine the benefit of taking one fewer attack to clear out a squad!

    To sum up: The resilient, short-range mage units are favored against heavy range due to hits being inevitable. Long-range mage units are favored against heavy melee due to being able to avoid retaliation more easily. In addition, 3-star units usually have the edge due to the extra stat penalty they apply to enemies. Even though in practice this is mostly limited to units from the Barracks, which are the 'middle-ground' units between the more specialized Mercenary Camp and Training Grounds options, this extra utility is generally more valuable than the extra passive bonuses even in matches that favor that unit. Example: I'd rather use 3-star Sorceresses than 1- or 2-star Banshees, even in battles with primarily heavy range units.
     
  8. Mykan

    Mykan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    As it is a speciality unit against HM you would expect that to be the case. The exception, as qaccy mentioned, is when looking at the techs for the upgraded unit, so a level 1 verse a level 2 or 3.
     
  9. Tedious

    Tedious Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2017
    My experience is probably tainted by having a level 6 DA and a level 6 Monastery, but Blossom vastly outperforms Sorcs in auto-fights. These 2 wonders really boost the Blossom: the health boost of Monastery helps out with Blossom's main weakness (being very squishy), and the damage boost of DA means that I can often 1-shot or 2-shot enemies. Further, 3 Blossoms can kill the Dryad that had initiative, and now I have 2 other units to tag enemies.

    My Merc Camp and Barracks training times are close enough (1:08H per block of Sorcs; 1:14H per block of Blossom), so I prefer to just focus on Blossom. I'll get free Sorcs from my Flying Academy, and I'll use those units during Day1/2 of tournaments, or during province fights, to save on attrition.

    Banshees are right out for me. Training time is way too long (1:51H per block) to justify any advantage they might have vs. a particular enemy comp. Maybe that analysis changes when I get the Training Grounds to max level in a week or so.
     
    kctanzen, samidodamage and Aramina like this.
  10. qaccy

    qaccy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    I completely forgot to talk about training time! Yeah, if there's a large difference between your buildings, this could shift priorities as well. However, there may be some instances where it's still preferable to have a particular unit even if they take longer to train, due to a marked advantage. Even if Blossoms would take 2x longer to train than Sorceresses, if it's a battle where Sorceresses would outright lose whereas Blossoms would win, the slower training time is still a better outcome. In practice though, I still tend to stick with the fastest-training units and if winning a battle is too costly or impossible, I'll simply cater instead.

    I should point out though that the majority of my experiences are coming from the very end of the research tree, and primarily focused on tournaments where I'm regularly clearing 20 or more provinces each week (except scrolls, that tournament sucks). Since the difficulty there is relatively unchanging from a numbers standpoint, I feel like that's the most appropriate baseline for comparing units in various battle scenarios.
     
    samidodamage and Tedious like this.
  11. Tedious

    Tedious Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2017
    This is where I come out, with Scrolls/Cerberus being the lone exception at this point. It might be different if my tourney goals were different. But right now, aiming for 1-1.5K most weeks, and 2K during 10-chest pushes, I just don't run into that many fights where I need to cater.
     
    samidodamage likes this.

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