DeletedUser24282
Guest
I'm archmage and I'd love some way to reward my team for an excellent job. I'd even buy diamonds if I could gift them.
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Your Elvenar Team
Deleted User - 4684565
Guest
I to am a Archmage of The Old Guard fellowship
I agree with you on that I think it would be a great idea to be able to reward the ones that are in fellowships to me that's what makes
a great and strong fellowship is each member
I agree with you on that I think it would be a great idea to be able to reward the ones that are in fellowships to me that's what makes
a great and strong fellowship is each member
Ashrem
Oh Wise One
There are some downsides that have been discussed in extensive detail in previous versions of the suggestion.
Imagine a worst case scenario: Someone new to the game joins your fellowship. They're active and engaged and generous sharing diamonds and goods.
Then it turns out they were just a drop-by, using a stolen credit card number for as long as they could get away with it. Inno deletes their account. Your account received 5000 diamonds from them, and so did 10 other cities. They know from IP addresses that at least four of the other accounts were the same person handing diamonds to themself. They don't know if the other six (of which you are one) also belong to the fraudulent user. Do they take back the diamonds, or whatever they were spent on, or do they take the easy path and delete your city?
Imagine a worst case scenario: Someone new to the game joins your fellowship. They're active and engaged and generous sharing diamonds and goods.
Then it turns out they were just a drop-by, using a stolen credit card number for as long as they could get away with it. Inno deletes their account. Your account received 5000 diamonds from them, and so did 10 other cities. They know from IP addresses that at least four of the other accounts were the same person handing diamonds to themself. They don't know if the other six (of which you are one) also belong to the fraudulent user. Do they take back the diamonds, or whatever they were spent on, or do they take the easy path and delete your city?
Deleted User - 4684565
Guest
Well said Ashrem and I can see the downside to that never thought about that , sad to say but they are people out there like that
Xelenia
Ex-Team Member
I feel the discussions occurring in this thread has derailed from the original idea presented. What is it?
I like the concept of providing "help" aka a small fraction of goods to fellowships and neighbors, which is completely different from allowing gifts of diamonds. I shall revisit this thread to see if worth the facilitation to the developers
I will say though, I personally do not think that concept (the non-diamond version) will vibe well with the developers but I am not opposed to letting this discussion continue
Xelie
I like the concept of providing "help" aka a small fraction of goods to fellowships and neighbors, which is completely different from allowing gifts of diamonds. I shall revisit this thread to see if worth the facilitation to the developers
I will say though, I personally do not think that concept (the non-diamond version) will vibe well with the developers but I am not opposed to letting this discussion continue
Xelie
Asterque
Member
This was actually my very first post here in the forum. After reading the pros and cons, I can see why the game does not favor player trading. In a way, it does help fellow players become more resourceful and creative, as we've all had to become starting out. I still fly practically solo, but thought like old school, how nice it would be to help other's along the way. But I also understand that this could become exploited like I've seen it happen in former games. Theft and sore feelings soon follow. Is it really helping? I gained a lot of air ships during the airship event. I like that kind of stuff. Still, I wished I could give a few away to people I'd met along the way in the game, but hmm... in truth, there really is no middle ground without losing the quality of the game in the end.
Points well taken...
Points well taken...
Deleted User - 4684565
Guest
Well spoken and I agree
ajqtrz
Chef - loquacious Old Dog
As a former business owner I've experienced cc fraud and generally speaking it's more expensive to go after the fraud than to absorb the cost. Let's suppose our hypothetical user of a stolen credit card charges $500 to the card. He's not likely to do it all at once but he's a big spender and there are three transactions: $199, $199 and $99. The CC company, if they don't catch the fraud, sends the balance (after transaction fees which run between 1 and 7 percent) to the merchant. So far a standard transaction But if the credit card owner disputes the transactions then the cc company immediately takes from the merchant the entire $500 and sometimes charges them a percentage for "reversal." They actually have the right to go into the bank account of the merchant and take the money even before Inno knows there was a problem. But they don't immediately return that money to the cc customer. They usually hold it for a few days so the merchant can dispute it.
At this point the merchant is out whatever was sold, the transaction fees, and the fees for "reversal." If he then disputes the claim of the credit card holder he usually has to pay between $25 and $50 for an "initial determination" of the thing. And in this he usually finds that the credit card was stolen and used fraudulently. If he agrees with this the cc owner gets his $500 back and the merchant is out the fees and the goods or services he delivered. At this point he could try to get the diamonds back and close the various accounts, but if anyone disputes this in a court of law it isn't good for the company's reputation. So, except in the cases of huge losses, the thing is dropped and the accounts of the actual fraudulent player closed. Any diamonds sent away would just be lost revenue.
And if the merchant says that the actual credit card user was the actual credit card owner (and thus not fraud), the attempt to get the money back by the credit card owner (by denying he spent the money) would be fraud. At that point the credit card company would charge the merchant $100 to $250 per transaction (remember there are 3 transactions in this scenario) to "investigate." After this to get the $500 from the credit card company Inno would have to file a formal complaint, the prosecution would have to pursue the matter and the defendant would have to found guilty. That can take years. All of this while the credit card company sits on the $500 knowing that they will probably never have to give it back to anybody.
So while I agree that such a scenario could happen, in the end Inno would probably not pursue it since the cost would be so great. What would happen is that they would just "shrink" their development budget to cover the loss ...or more than likely they have built into their whole budget a line item: anticipated losses due to fraudulent transactions." They might delete the credit card users accounts and dare him/her to challenge it in court, but other than that those receiving the diamonds would have little of which to worry. The bad press would probably keep Inno from bothering trying to take those diamonds back. In fact, that too would probably be part of the "fraudulent transactions" budget item.
So, while it might occur one does have to wonder if the giving of gifts to other players would not have a more positive effect than the negative of a stolen credit card.
AJ
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Ashrem
Oh Wise One
I didn't say a disputed charge, I said a "worst case scenario" of using a stolen credit card number. Where the bank informs Inno the charge is fraudulent, not a dispute with the cardholder. An entirely different category of crime which plagues the online gaming industry like few others because there are no real consequences for getting "caught." If anything, the criminal makes double, by quickly building the account then selling it to someone else before the fraud is identified. Inno would have to bigger fools than even most players think they are if they were presented with a case of outright fraud but chose to let the accounts stand.
Deleted User - 849120185
Guest
Part of the adventure is getting by on the resources you earn during the game, in game play. Gifting overrides that experience and would be subject to abuse. Ways around this are mentioned with unbalance trades but that does not overcome either gold or supply shortages. Unbalanced trades are also subject to thefts that make them very risky and subject to precise timing.
I do not think this is an accident. The best way about a momentary resource crisis is to support the game and spend diamonds.
This is by the way an obvious (to a newcomer) recurring theme that would be better managed with a comprehensive idea listing Pinned to this discussion topic.
ajqtrz
Chef - loquacious Old Dog
The credit card never informs the merchant that the charge is fraudulent unless the card holder challenges the charge. The consumer (cc owner) has 30 days after the credit card statement to challenge the charge. If they don't the credit card company is under no obligation to refund them, though sometimes they do, depending on the amount and history of the customer. The usually say this is a "courtesy, one-time refund" as if they are really being generous. In the end there is no dispute with the merchant except by the credit card holder and the credit card company sits in the middle "adjudicating" while holding whatever funds are in dispute for as long as they can. The only dispute the merchant can have is with the consumer and if that dispute is pursued there are charges by the credit card company to initiate and investigate the matter.
I agree that their are no real consequences for getting caught and part of that is that the routing of charges is often through off-shore, poorly regulated foreign institutions. And I agree that such charges plague the online game industry, but there is little any merchant can do. You can't refuse to take credit cards, the credit card companies have access to your funds, and they also control the cost of litigation and dispute. They actually love litigation and disputes because they make a lot of extra cash in the process all the while holding the interest bearing money of either the consumer or the merchant.
My point is, and I said this above, Inno might suspend the account of the fraudulent credit card user, but there is no way they would do the same of the ones to whom the diamonds were distributed unless they had awful good evidence that those players knew of the fraud. The bad press and bad feelings in the community would be more costly, not to mention the possibility of a class action suit or two.
But you may be right. I've not thought about the selling of accounts. Is it legal and within the player's agreement with Inno? If so then, no real problem because you would have to, again, have great evidence to move against the purchaser of the account for the fraud part. On the other hand, if it's not legal by the terms of the player agreement, then you would shut it down for being a purchased account anyway. You don't even need to know if the diamonds came from a fraudulent cc transaction or not.
I have been part of a game where gifting was allowed. The retention rate of new players was much higher exactly because of the tradition of gifting. One of the worst things in Elvenar is the inability to interact with new players. There is no community chat where the player can introduce themselves and thus a new player is pretty much invisible unless he/she makes an effort. Most people won't do this until they are confident they will be staying.
In my opinion then, if we were to have a marker on players who have been around for a month or less AND could gift them during that period -- and it may be resources or whatever -- we might be able to increase the retention rate by getting them off to the a better start.
AJ
NightshadeCS
Well-Known Member
We have a system of gifting. It is called Neighborly Help.
ajqtrz
Chef - loquacious Old Dog
DeletedUser24282
Guest
What if the gift ability was limited to archmages and they could only reward others in the fellowship? We can already give goods and AW points, as can anyone, so we need something more valuable. Diamonds are easiest, but enchantments, instants and buildings would work too. Giving a building of chapter x could be reduced to the highest chapter the player has achieved (if necessary).