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Your Elvenar Team
Great Bell Spire/Crystal Lighthouse Effect on Culture
- Thread starter Rythel
- Start date
Henroo
Oh Wise One
Hey Rythel! Great to see you in the forums! One thing I have not seen mentioned is the cost formula. Essentially there are 3 things that determine how expensive spire and tournament encounters are: 1. Total number of tech advances, 2. Total number of Ancient Wonder Levels, and 3. Total number of city expansions. If you are serious about transitioning to catering, then Sanctuary will be of limited use to you since the military half of it is a toughness bonus to your troops. It is a great wonder for a fighter like me. If you don't fight, I do not think this AW is worth it. There are other AWs that give culture and their other benefits mesh better with a cater playstyle.
Genefer
Well-Known Member
And???
Why do you think it has no value to a player who caters exclusively?
I think the census is the Watchtower is without question essential.
The Thermal Springs of Youth has the benefit of population, but, as with the Thrones, the culture benefit is subpar due to the Ancient Wonder level variable, compared to the Sanctuary's required culture variable. So, other than the Watchtower Ruins, which Ancient Wonder do you, as a fighter, believe is a better fit for a catering city and why?
Note: The Thermal Spring of Youth is especially beneficial for a catering city, because by necessity it - the city should - rely on residences for population rather than pop/culture, because pop/culture does not generate coin.
So, in my opinion, a catering city that wants to play both the Spire & Tournament beyond the gateway & 1600 tournament points - would do well to have the Watchtower Ruin, the Bell Spire, the Sanctuary, the Thermal Spring of Youth, the Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood, and the Blooming Trader Guild to carry a high Culture bonus to produce the volume of coins & supplies needed to purchase goods from the Wholesaler while still having enough to participate in the Activities.
Again, that is my opinion as a player that both fights & caters.
Also, of course the difficulty increases as your city advances - what would be the point of playing if not for the challenge?
MaidenFair
Chef - Head Philologist
Any of the culture-producing wonders would be a complete waste of space in my catering city, as you can see from the picture in my first post on this thread. I have so much culture that I’m always at the 170% bonus level before any neighborly help. Definitely not essential.
I’m not far enough along to build the Thermal Springs yet but I have no intention of doing so because my city does not rely on residences, and yes, I still have so much excess coin I have to buy from the wholesaler multiple times a day.
I have a tourney average of 5535 and top the Spire every week. I don’t have, or ever intend to build, 3 of the wonders on your list. I realise we’re all trying to give advice based on our individual experiences, but it needs to allow for individual playstyle. Catering cities don’t need to be clones of each other to be successful; there are many ways to approach it.
Genefer
Well-Known Member
That's great MaidenFair, and you are correct there is not a right or wrong or one size fits all.
However, there is a huge leap in city composition from Chap 12 to 15 and again 16+
Research expansions become scarce with only 1 per Chap 12, 13, & 14 - 2 in 15 & 16
Land Expansion acquisition decreases dramatically due to the increased scout duration and required number of completed provinces.
Factories, Workshops, & Main Hall get larger and carry a steep population increase which needs to be paid by either residences and/or pop culture.
Addition of Sentient & Ascended Goods Factories - consume more space and need more residences to pay the pop and more culture.
Of course, the addition of residences to cover the cost of upgrades and the addition of Sentient and Ascended factories, require more culture.
A litter of mana, orc, & seed culture buildings all of which provide relatively poor culture value, which results in even more culture buildings.
There is a huge demand increase for city space with a very low opportunity for acquiring expansion without spending diamonds to acquire them.
So, if your city is consumed by seed, mana, and orc buildings all providing a relatively low culture value will you be able to pay the increased required culture and acquire the amount of Available Culture needed to reach a 170% Culture Bonus - will you have enough space in your city for the number of culture buildings you'll need - will you receive enough neighborly help? Perhaps, but it is by far a more efficient use of space to build the Watchtower Ruin, the Thermal Springs - and yes, if needed, the controversial Sanctuary.
Like you, I take advantage of the wholesaler with my coins & supplies earned from my Culture Bonus. In fact, in my opinion, the Culture Bonus's greatest value is the ability to make wholesaler purchases - I make 28 to 32 purchases Per Tier daily -
32 purchases amounts to
T1: 1,177,600 units
T2: 780,800 units
T3: 524,800 units
And costs me
Supplies: 112,470,000
Coins: 124,200,000
and my Blooming Trader Guild is only at level 21
However, without the Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood I could never generate enough supplies & coins to make those purchases.
However, there is a huge leap in city composition from Chap 12 to 15 and again 16+
Research expansions become scarce with only 1 per Chap 12, 13, & 14 - 2 in 15 & 16
Land Expansion acquisition decreases dramatically due to the increased scout duration and required number of completed provinces.
Factories, Workshops, & Main Hall get larger and carry a steep population increase which needs to be paid by either residences and/or pop culture.
Addition of Sentient & Ascended Goods Factories - consume more space and need more residences to pay the pop and more culture.
Of course, the addition of residences to cover the cost of upgrades and the addition of Sentient and Ascended factories, require more culture.
A litter of mana, orc, & seed culture buildings all of which provide relatively poor culture value, which results in even more culture buildings.
There is a huge demand increase for city space with a very low opportunity for acquiring expansion without spending diamonds to acquire them.
So, if your city is consumed by seed, mana, and orc buildings all providing a relatively low culture value will you be able to pay the increased required culture and acquire the amount of Available Culture needed to reach a 170% Culture Bonus - will you have enough space in your city for the number of culture buildings you'll need - will you receive enough neighborly help? Perhaps, but it is by far a more efficient use of space to build the Watchtower Ruin, the Thermal Springs - and yes, if needed, the controversial Sanctuary.
Like you, I take advantage of the wholesaler with my coins & supplies earned from my Culture Bonus. In fact, in my opinion, the Culture Bonus's greatest value is the ability to make wholesaler purchases - I make 28 to 32 purchases Per Tier daily -
32 purchases amounts to
T1: 1,177,600 units
T2: 780,800 units
T3: 524,800 units
And costs me
Supplies: 112,470,000
Coins: 124,200,000
and my Blooming Trader Guild is only at level 21
However, without the Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood I could never generate enough supplies & coins to make those purchases.
Genefer
Well-Known Member
About the expansions - I caution anyone from exceeding the number of completed provinces needed to unlock the research. I know there is a increase in cost for the Spire and Tournament with AW levels & Research, but though the cost might increase 100 or 1,000 units of whatever resource - these increases do not account for the increases in city production as a result of building upgrades unlocked with research completion or the increase in city production as a result of leveling Ancient Wonders. These tiny increases in difficulty are offset by the increase in city production.
Land Expansions acquired by exceeded the number of completed provinces to unlock the chapter work like a penalty.
Example:
1) 111 city expansions - 0 premium - 439 AW levels - City Advancement Score - 7,625
Spire - Chest 1: Coin - 340,000 Supplies - 34,000 T1 - 4,300....
2) 111 city expansions - 19 premium - 439 AW levels - City Advancement Score - 8,523
Spire - Chest 1: Coin - 380,000, Supplies - 38,000, T1 - 4,800....
*3) 118 city expansions - 19 premium - 439 AW levels - City Advancement Score - 9,024 *
Spire - Chest 1: Coin - 410,000, Supplies - 41,000, T1 - 5,100....
4) 137 city expansions - 0 premium - 439 AW levels - City Advancement Score - 9,487
I was totally underwhelmed by Ancient Wonders and only had a few with 5 to 7 levels on them until Chapter 11 - when I listened to the advice of the Arch Mage of my Fellowship. So, by that time I had already my land acquisition from both the map & purchases had already exceeded the minimum by a lot. So, it created a cycle - basically when you spend months working overtime expenses tend to go up and when the over time is finished it becomes a week-to-week struggle.
If I had built the Wonders as they unlocked and leveled them consistently most likely I never would have needed the space - so would not have exceeded the expansions for the chapter - creating this penalty.
In other words, not having the Wonders has cause a seriously negative impact on the game for many chapters while trying to catch up to the imbalance I created.
There is a difference between an increase in city advancement depending on what has caused the increase in cost or if it is truly an increase in cost relative to the increase in city production.
Just something to consider.
The City Advancement Score was obtained here from the MinMax site to check your own just create a copy of the Google Sheets file for yourself.
Land Expansions acquired by exceeded the number of completed provinces to unlock the chapter work like a penalty.
Example:
1) 111 city expansions - 0 premium - 439 AW levels - City Advancement Score - 7,625
Spire - Chest 1: Coin - 340,000 Supplies - 34,000 T1 - 4,300....
2) 111 city expansions - 19 premium - 439 AW levels - City Advancement Score - 8,523
Spire - Chest 1: Coin - 380,000, Supplies - 38,000, T1 - 4,800....
*3) 118 city expansions - 19 premium - 439 AW levels - City Advancement Score - 9,024 *
Spire - Chest 1: Coin - 410,000, Supplies - 41,000, T1 - 5,100....
4) 137 city expansions - 0 premium - 439 AW levels - City Advancement Score - 9,487
I was totally underwhelmed by Ancient Wonders and only had a few with 5 to 7 levels on them until Chapter 11 - when I listened to the advice of the Arch Mage of my Fellowship. So, by that time I had already my land acquisition from both the map & purchases had already exceeded the minimum by a lot. So, it created a cycle - basically when you spend months working overtime expenses tend to go up and when the over time is finished it becomes a week-to-week struggle.
If I had built the Wonders as they unlocked and leveled them consistently most likely I never would have needed the space - so would not have exceeded the expansions for the chapter - creating this penalty.
In other words, not having the Wonders has cause a seriously negative impact on the game for many chapters while trying to catch up to the imbalance I created.
There is a difference between an increase in city advancement depending on what has caused the increase in cost or if it is truly an increase in cost relative to the increase in city production.
Just something to consider.
The City Advancement Score was obtained here from the MinMax site to check your own just create a copy of the Google Sheets file for yourself.
Iyapo
Personal Conductor
I recommend that everyone clear as many provinces as they can afford past chapter 8. Other than the increased cost to clear provinces, there is zero impact on tournament or spire costs from clearing too many provinces. The increase in seed collection and several wonder benefits out weighs the extra cost of clearing extra provinces, imo.
Placing any expansions will increase costs. Is the tiny increase in cost offset by the increase in production provided by more space....that depends on how you use the space.
Last edited:
Rythel
Active Member
Hey Henroo! I would've asked you directly, but you didn't have it so I tapped into the wealth of knowledge that is the forums! I've always fought just a little and have enjoyed the overall health bonus and the culture bonus, but it isn't providing me with as much benefit as I feel it should, especially as a 5x5 wonder.
After building the Great Bell Spire and sitting at level 2 I'm already seeing an increase in about 40,000 neighborly help culture compared to my regular amount. For reference, my level 12 Sanctuary is giving me 42k culture. So a level 2 GBS is giving almost as much as a level 12 Sanctuary, and that's not even mentioning the synergy it has with the Watchtower Ruins and the Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood (which I will be building soon-ish).
The Sanctuary has been a great boost to culture, but the Great Bell Spire is offering me more overall culture and better synergy to my playstyle. As space is at a premium, I will be selling the Sanctuary soon.
elvenbee
Well-Known Member
This makes me feel better about having cleared enough provinces for the next 3 chapters already lol
Iyapo
Personal Conductor
- Production
-
- The Trader generates Divine Seeds every 24 hours. This is based on one Seed per Main Hall level multiplied by the number of Provinces completed. -
- Collection Bonus. Every early collection receives an extra amount based on one Seed per Main Hall level multiplied by all your AW levels combined.
If you can afford to overscout(past chapter 8) you should, it will increase various productions without requiring any extra space in your city
Sprite1313
Well-Known Member
Exactly as @Iyapo said, just because you have cleared the province, doesn’t mean you have to place the expansion. My only caution is (as mentioned on some other threads) try to keep a few uncleared provinces for events. Other than that, clear as many as you can, limited by scout time and available resources.
One other factor that will come up for you in later game is that the trader calculates unurium production based on working population (base production) and required culture (collection bonus). So, if you get most of your goods from wholesaler trades (fewer manufacturies) and your population from event buildings (versus residences), you are going to generate less unurium. Of course, there are A LOT of chapters before that becomes an issue, and it is not impossible to overcome, just something for which to plan.
Personally, I like the Thermal Springs of Youth, even though I do get a lot of population from event buildings. Even at level 13, mine is giving me 35K population in 21 squares, in addition to the culture boost. That is compared to the 31K in 24 squares that I get from a magic residence. That will only continue to go up. So, my 21 square AW is saving me 48 squares (I would need 1+ MR to give the same pop); that is enough space for another armoury (and more orcs + sentients).
One other factor that will come up for you in later game is that the trader calculates unurium production based on working population (base production) and required culture (collection bonus). So, if you get most of your goods from wholesaler trades (fewer manufacturies) and your population from event buildings (versus residences), you are going to generate less unurium. Of course, there are A LOT of chapters before that becomes an issue, and it is not impossible to overcome, just something for which to plan.
Personally, I like the Thermal Springs of Youth, even though I do get a lot of population from event buildings. Even at level 13, mine is giving me 35K population in 21 squares, in addition to the culture boost. That is compared to the 31K in 24 squares that I get from a magic residence. That will only continue to go up. So, my 21 square AW is saving me 48 squares (I would need 1+ MR to give the same pop); that is enough space for another armoury (and more orcs + sentients).
Genefer
Well-Known Member
I don't mean not to scout - never stop scouting. I am referring to placing the Expansions beyond the amount corresponding with the completed province requirement to unlock the chapter.
As for the Wonders - I level mine as quickly as possible and as a hybrid city there are only 3 I have not and 3 I will not build of the current Ancient Wonders.
I do not think Wonder levels or research increase difficulty because the increase in production from upgrading city buildings and Ancient Wonders negate the slight increase in cost. I level my wonders fairly quickly - including my DB that is currently upgrading - I have gained 59 levels in 52 days and everything was fine.
However, over the past 8 months I have observed that when I place an expansion - my troops take a dive - catering success in the Spire plummets. It is not the few hundred or few thousand resource quantity increase or increased number of troops or whatever - the difficulty is the decline of successful catering encounters in the Spire & Fighting Encounters in the Tournaments (I don't fight in the Spire, but I would be shocked if the success doesn't decline there too).
A few weeks ago, I placed my 137th expansion (118 research & map - 19 premium).
To complete the Gateway of the Spire took a combined 37 attempts & 75 diamonds - the Gateway. Prior to the expansion on a bad week, I might have to reset 4 times throughout the entire gateway - a difference of 17 resets & 75 diamonds- for the Gateway.
The same week - Round 1 of the Tournament - I lost 3 fighting encounters within the first 22 provinces and the 1st loss was on the 9th province and ran out of troops for the round on the 24th province. This is why I paid out on the first 9 provinces each round last week.
It is the increase in encounter failures that reflects the increase in difficulty - not the increase of few resources & troops - alone. Combine the resource/troop increase with the failure increase and the cost increases significantly.
This is the pattern I have observed in my city when I add expansions. I know if I had built Wonders from the start, I would not have had to acquire more land than I would earn from the provinces needed to unlock each chapter & the research expansions, because my city production and troop strength & availability would have been exponentially higher and cost lower.
In my opinion the more Ancient Wonders and the higher the levels the better - the trader seed bonus alone is a huge boon to a city - eliminating or minimizing the number of low value seed culture buildings. A player in my Fellowship is in Chap 19 and has had to add 20 festivals, 5 Amuni Ships, and 1 other seed building I can't recall the name of- almost 14 expansions.
That is just my take on observing my city
And - again there is no one size fits all
As for the Wonders - I level mine as quickly as possible and as a hybrid city there are only 3 I have not and 3 I will not build of the current Ancient Wonders.
I do not think Wonder levels or research increase difficulty because the increase in production from upgrading city buildings and Ancient Wonders negate the slight increase in cost. I level my wonders fairly quickly - including my DB that is currently upgrading - I have gained 59 levels in 52 days and everything was fine.
However, over the past 8 months I have observed that when I place an expansion - my troops take a dive - catering success in the Spire plummets. It is not the few hundred or few thousand resource quantity increase or increased number of troops or whatever - the difficulty is the decline of successful catering encounters in the Spire & Fighting Encounters in the Tournaments (I don't fight in the Spire, but I would be shocked if the success doesn't decline there too).
A few weeks ago, I placed my 137th expansion (118 research & map - 19 premium).
To complete the Gateway of the Spire took a combined 37 attempts & 75 diamonds - the Gateway. Prior to the expansion on a bad week, I might have to reset 4 times throughout the entire gateway - a difference of 17 resets & 75 diamonds- for the Gateway.
The same week - Round 1 of the Tournament - I lost 3 fighting encounters within the first 22 provinces and the 1st loss was on the 9th province and ran out of troops for the round on the 24th province. This is why I paid out on the first 9 provinces each round last week.
It is the increase in encounter failures that reflects the increase in difficulty - not the increase of few resources & troops - alone. Combine the resource/troop increase with the failure increase and the cost increases significantly.
This is the pattern I have observed in my city when I add expansions. I know if I had built Wonders from the start, I would not have had to acquire more land than I would earn from the provinces needed to unlock each chapter & the research expansions, because my city production and troop strength & availability would have been exponentially higher and cost lower.
In my opinion the more Ancient Wonders and the higher the levels the better - the trader seed bonus alone is a huge boon to a city - eliminating or minimizing the number of low value seed culture buildings. A player in my Fellowship is in Chap 19 and has had to add 20 festivals, 5 Amuni Ships, and 1 other seed building I can't recall the name of- almost 14 expansions.
That is just my take on observing my city
And - again there is no one size fits all
Iyapo
Personal Conductor
I don't think the number of failed attempts in the spire mini game or the noxious troop mix in the tournaments is connected to city advancement. I think the "difficulty" is RNG. I believe the base line cost/troop numbers of individual encounters is all that the player can influence.
Genefer
Well-Known Member
Yes, scout, complete provinces (as Sprite suggested leave some incomplete for events), but if you don't have to have the expansion you might consider waiting to place it until it's needed.
Yes, the trader seeds are worth the completed provinces - though I focus more on my Seed bonus, because my level 35 MH & 439 AW levels produce 15,365 seeds (when my upgrade completes) from the Trader seed Bonus every 3hrs & while my 582 completed providence 3hr early collect generates 2,536 seeds - for a total of 17,901 seeds every 3hrs x at least 5 collections per day for a minimum quantity of 89,505 seeds that do not cost any space in my city.
Yes, the trader seeds are worth the completed provinces - though I focus more on my Seed bonus, because my level 35 MH & 439 AW levels produce 15,365 seeds (when my upgrade completes) from the Trader seed Bonus every 3hrs & while my 582 completed providence 3hr early collect generates 2,536 seeds - for a total of 17,901 seeds every 3hrs x at least 5 collections per day for a minimum quantity of 89,505 seeds that do not cost any space in my city.
Genefer
Well-Known Member
As I said it is the pattern I have observed - is it true for every city? I'm not sure if it is possible to really compare cities to pin down an absolute across the board.
However, the benefits & interaction among Ancient Wonders is knowable - whether it is a good fit for each unique city and player - I don't know
However, the benefits & interaction among Ancient Wonders is knowable - whether it is a good fit for each unique city and player - I don't know
Genefer
Well-Known Member
There are 6 I will not build - the Tome of Secrets, Endless Excavation, Thrones of High Men, Spire Library, Tournament Arena, & Dragon Ark
Why not?
Tome & EE - I am a very active player so the Tome & Endless supply production is not high enough to justify the Space considering the second benefit of kp - & Relics. Though if the tome were a 3 x 3 I would probably build it for the kp, and if the Endless benefitted from the Culture Bonus I would probably build it. I think these 2 wonders would be most advantageous for a play that can only play once a day, minimizing the prosperity supply production value. I think a highly active player can find better use for their space. Tome cost 16 tiles - EE cost is 20 tiles.
The Thrones Culture benefit is relative to AW levels and the percent is not great and with the second benefit being rank points - it really has no value compared to other options - unless the player wants to increase their rank points. Cost 24 tiles
The Spire Library - fully leveled provides 7 kp, and with the second benefit being rank - that is not a concern for me. Cost is 24 tiles.
The Tournament Arena -though this wonder is a troop producer, again the second benefit is rank points and that is not a concern of mine. Cost is 20 tiles.
The Dragon Ark - provides Sensient goods for story line quest completion - I do not bother with those quests - so the only benefit will be those completed from standard city activity - the second benefit is catalyst when collecting the Magic Academy chest. Actually, I'll decide this one once I unlock it and can assess it relative to the composition of my city when I get there. Cost is 20 tiles.
So, 5 I will not build and 1 to be determined later, the rest I will build as I unlock them.
Why not?
Tome & EE - I am a very active player so the Tome & Endless supply production is not high enough to justify the Space considering the second benefit of kp - & Relics. Though if the tome were a 3 x 3 I would probably build it for the kp, and if the Endless benefitted from the Culture Bonus I would probably build it. I think these 2 wonders would be most advantageous for a play that can only play once a day, minimizing the prosperity supply production value. I think a highly active player can find better use for their space. Tome cost 16 tiles - EE cost is 20 tiles.
The Thrones Culture benefit is relative to AW levels and the percent is not great and with the second benefit being rank points - it really has no value compared to other options - unless the player wants to increase their rank points. Cost 24 tiles
The Spire Library - fully leveled provides 7 kp, and with the second benefit being rank - that is not a concern for me. Cost is 24 tiles.
The Tournament Arena -though this wonder is a troop producer, again the second benefit is rank points and that is not a concern of mine. Cost is 20 tiles.
The Dragon Ark - provides Sensient goods for story line quest completion - I do not bother with those quests - so the only benefit will be those completed from standard city activity - the second benefit is catalyst when collecting the Magic Academy chest. Actually, I'll decide this one once I unlock it and can assess it relative to the composition of my city when I get there. Cost is 20 tiles.
So, 5 I will not build and 1 to be determined later, the rest I will build as I unlock them.
Pheryll
Set Designer
Wonders that produce coin and/or supply now benefit from the culture bonus.
Pheryll
Set Designer
I have not built, but I would assume. However if your culture bonus is kept in the few hundred percent then you may have an issue with the size of a single collection from it (4x a single collection of the prosperity towers). You could easily be collecting more than 50% of your maximum capacity.