How can the Devs make Enars more worthwhile for more players?

[MaidenFair]

Well it isn't simply about increasing a base value, but rather finding a way to make it scale with chapters. There are many ways to implement a scaling system. What would you recommend?

This is my first thought, so it may be way off-base. However, doesn’t it already kind of automatically scale with chapters, since it calculates based on completed provinces and that number necessarily increases every chapter? Therefore, if the base value were raised to something higher (I’d have to do some more math to give an estimate of an appropriate number), I think it might continue to scale appropriately with chapters.

 

[Pheryll]

However, doesn’t it already kind of automatically scale with chapters, since it calculates based on completed provinces and that number necessarily increases every chapter?

It loses out to the scaling of event buildings that produce mana. If there is no significant purpose to Enar's besides mana production, then why build it given mana event buildings get better augmentation from each chapter?

 

[Dhurrin]

Enar's doesnt need to be improved. It is an epic mana producer and it gives broken shards which everyone needs to fill rune wheels. People who dont like it have other ways to get broken shards and mana if they choose. Which other Wonders do you think "need" to be fixed?

Is it really such an epic manaproducer?
So, who-ever has this Embassy up, please let me know how much mana it actually generates (and what level it is and how many provinces you have completed.
Because I looked at the app and it's telling me that at lvl 1 it will generate 45.9 K mana per scout for me.
And at lvl 35 it will generate 351 K mana per scout for me according to the app. ( at 765 completed provinces)

351 K mana for every 3 1/2 days or so (thanks to a lvl 35 Scout's Tavern) is not exactly huge.

I mean, 1 Burning Pool upped to chap 21 provides 63.984 mana per day, or 191.952 mana per 3 days. And it's only 4x3, so I can have 2 in the space of the Embassy AND have room left over. Those 2 Burning Pools would already outperform Enar at lvl 35. AND they can be teleported. AND they don't require a crapload of KPs

So unless the app is wrong, I'm definitely not impressed with the manaproduction. I'd like to hear some examples of how much it actually generates at high levels.

 

[Dhurrin]

Scouts Tavern is available in ch20 and can reduce scout times by 65%. Which chapter do Scouts times start taking 5 days?

LOL! Before the Scout's Tavern was available my scouting times was about a week!
It doesn't depend on the chapter, but on how far out you are. Even with a lvl 35 Scout's Tavern my Scouting times is about 3 days. And rapidly increasing since I have the choice of scouting 'closerby' provinces into a wasteland without cities, or go in the direction where there are players, but at the cost of further rings

 

[MaidenFair]

It loses out to the scaling of event buildings that produce mana. If there is no significant purpose to Enar's besides mana production, then why build it given mana event buildings get better augmentation from each chapter?

I’ll have to do some math and get back to you. I definitely agree it needs to at least equal mid-level event buildings and continue to do so.

 

[Iyapo]

Make the Mana be in "instants" form

If they did this for the 3 Mana Wonders, (Enar's, DA, and Maze) that would, imo, be spectacular without any other alteration. The production could remain sorrier than event buildings and I think players would build them anyway.

 

[Alram]

Is it really such an epic manaproducer?
So, who-ever has this Embassy up, please let me know how much mana it actually generates (and what level it is and how many provinces you have completed.

I'm not playing a ch21 city.
I'm playing a ch12 city with 304 provinces completed and a L21 Enar's is giving me 91,200 mana per scout. My scout time is 21h20m. (Using 24 hrs for easy math.)

Enars Embassy:
91,200mana÷24hours=3800per hour÷28squares=135mana per square.

Mana Hut:
5000mana÷24hours=208per hour÷4squares=52mana per square.

I dont know when an event building will catch up to Enar but it is not this day!

 

[Iyapo]

lol, @Alram!!!

It is not this day!!

I am guessing the scaling for Enars goes sideways some where after chapter 15. It is like Inno decided not to reduce scouting costs for several chapters and forgot that there was a wonder that was going to be harmed by that choice. . . Or they did not care because Enars is effectively mana on demand, a few Boosters and it is back to producing more per square per hour than any event building.

 

[Dhurrin]

lol, @Alram!!!

It is not this day!!

I am guessing the scaling for Enars goes sideways some where after chapter 15. It is like Inno decided not to reduce scouting costs for several chapters and forgot that there was a wonder that was going to be harmed by that choice. . . Or they did not care because Enars is effectively mana on demand, a few Boosters and it is back to producing more per square per hour than any event building.

I would disagree here. The Abbey is mana on demand. Especially for players later in the game who play the tourney weekly, even if not overly active, spells are easy to come by.
Enar however depends on the scouting time and that can go up pretty fast. A few boosters? Why would I want to waste 60+ hours on timeinstants on Enar for a relatively low amount of mana? There are much better things to spend the timeinstants on, and spells are much cheaper, so the DA would be a far better choice.

@Alram
Thanks for the example!
From your example I'd say Enar is good/ok in the middle chapters, but rapidly loses value after that as scouting times go up, then regains a bit IF one invests heavily in the Scout's Tavern once you get there.

So let me break it down for what I see in the app as I don't have the Embassy up.
If I would put the scouting time at 3 days, Enar lvl 35 would generate 351 K mana =351.000 / 3 / 24 /28= 174.11 mana / square / hour
Burning Pool chap 21 provides 2.666 mana/hour, at 12 squares = 222.17 mana / square / hour
Mana Hut chap 20 = 833 / hour, at 4 squares makes 208.25 mana /square / hour, and at chap 21 even 1.041 per hour, or 260.25 mane / square / hour
Even the Maze, at 765 provinces at lvl 33 provides 16.830 per harvest, so at 4 harvests / day that would be (16.830 x 4) / 24 / 30=93.5, but at 5 harvests it would be 116.87 / square / hour, but with a benefit that the decay is brought down to 2% which can save a crapload of mana each day.

 

[Rythel]

I've made suggestions on changing Enar's completely to be more appealing to a larger crowd of people, but I think the discussion here is very honestly looking into a way to improve Enar's without a major overhaul.

My biggest deterrent for Enar's is that the mana production is tied to scouting. As scouting is taking me 2.5 days in chapter 16, it's mana per space per day is getting worse. (1,750 for a Mana Sawmill vs 1,311 at level 11 and 510 provinces) But one thing that Enar's has that a lot people overlook is the fact that it provides copious amounts of mana on-demand once per a couple days.

My change to make the mana aspect better would be to have Enar's produce mana per day as a function of completed provinces, but have it function like a residence. It produces mana per day, but it could store up to 7 days worth of production with early collection every 24 hours. Mana values would need to be reduced slightly, but now it's a completely unique wonder from both Maze and Abbey offering the player the chance to collect copious amounts of mana when needed without having that mana be subject to decay. Something I believe would be very worthwhile and attractive in chapter 10.

I agree with Astram and Mykan on the Broken Shards. Most of us on the forum are in active fellowships and perform well in the tournament and thus have broken shards coming out of our ears. But solo players who aren't interested in the tournament greatly benefit from the weekly income of broken shards. I don't believe it's a wonder issue, but rather a broken shard issue itself. If there were better things to spend broken shards on, the worth of Enar's would increase.

 

[Iyapo]

I would disagree here. The Abbey is mana on demand. Especially for players later in the game who play the tourney weekly, even if not overly active, spells are easy to come by.
Enar however depends on the scouting time and that can go up pretty fast. A few boosters? Why would I want to waste 60+ hours on timeinstants on Enar for a relatively low amount of mana? There are much better things to spend the timeinstants on, and spells are much cheaper, so the DA would be a far better choice.

I am sorry, what do you disagree with?

The DA is mana on demand and is way better for players who primarily fight(mage boost/speedup timers used for troop making) or who tournament heavily(plenty of spells and relics to make spells). The DA is way better for players who scout beyond the chapter recommendations(extended scout times).

The Enar's is mana on demand and is way better for early game players who do not overscout, for players who Gold/High Silver Spire but don't fight(lots of speedup timers) and players who do less than 3k in the tournaments (less spells, less relics).

Edit: removed some sneaky potential snark that made it through my filter.

 

[Pheryll]

The Enar's is mana on demand and is way better for early game players who do not overscout, for players who Gold/High Silver Spire but don't fight(lots of speedup timers) and players who do less than 3k in the tournaments (less spells, less relics).

But the issue is it completely phases out when you get to the later chapters. The broken shard is found elsewhere, and the mana is outdone by event buildings.

 

[Dhurrin]

I am sorry, what do you disagree with?

The DA is mana on demand and is way better for players who primarily fight(mage boost/speedup timers used for troop making) or who tournament heavily(plenty of spells and relics to make spells). The DA is way better for players who scout beyond the chapter recommendations(extended scout times).

The Enar's is mana on demand and is way better for early game players who do not overscout, for players who Gold/High Silver Spire but don't fight(lots of speedup timers) and players who do less than 3k in the tournaments (less spells, less relics).

Edit: removed some sneaky potential snark that made it through my filter.

You may want to consider the fact that 'overscouting' is something that only became an issue later in the game, when the game was started players were actually encouraged to scout further and further.
It was only when the orc-chapter was introduced that suddenly there was a limit. I remember that as I wasn't into that chapter yet at the time and suddenly my scouting was forcefully stopped because I couldn't breed orcs yet but was way beyond the ring where orcs were suddenly needed.

That being said, define 'overscouting'. Suddenly one is not supposed to scout beyond the number of provinces needed to unlock a chapter? That is one way to look at it, but I see that as dead time for my scout. Before the Tavern became available my scout took about a week. At that point I'm not going to say: "gee, let's not start a new scout because it takes so long". In fact, the longer the scouting takes, the more likely it is to start a scout again asa exactly because it takes so long. Plus there are AWs where part of it's powers depend on the amount of finished provinces.
As of right now I have 765 finished provinces and another 60-70 that I have scouted but haven't done all or any encounters yet.
So according to you I overscouted, though I just played the game as it was meant at first. And now being so far beyond the demand for the new chapter there is just no reason to stop scouting. Not to mention that with such scouting times, I need to have several provinces at the ready for event-quests that push someone to do x-encounters, or finish a province. Or to gain x relics when the tourney is not active.

But even if both points I mentioned are taken away I still would not ever classify Enar as 'mana on demand' as for me the timeinstants are way too useful elsewhere and anything that I have to basically wait more than a day for is not 'on demand'.
As I said in an earlier answer in this chain; Enar seems to be ok-good for midgame, but it's value drops sharply as one progresses through the game to later chapters and longer scouting times,

 

[Iyapo]

@Pheryll
I have a coldfire phoenix. I already use speed ups on my scouts. It is not out of the way for me.

@Dhurrin
I ask what you disagreed with and your answer is. . . You have better uses for speedups so you don't consider Enar's mana on demand? Okay, that is valid. I do not have better uses for my speedups.

 

[Pheryll]

@Pheryll
I have a coldfire phoenix. I already use speed ups on my scouts. It is not out of the way for me.

And my scouts' tavern improves the KP feeding effect of my moon bear. When you use the scouts' tavern for extra scouting you will run into long scouting taking several days. That is not a trivial investment of time instants. Without the scout's tavern at the start of chapter 21 with minimum scouting, you are again taking several days to scout. So it is only with the scouts' tavern but no extra scouting that you find a niche case for benefiting Enar's Embassy.

 

[Mykan]

Without the scout's tavern at the start of chapter 21 with minimum scouting, you are again taking several days to scout.

Approx. 4 days, enars was designed when the devs expected a typical scout time to not exceed 24hrs. The change in that plan along with not been able to deliver on the cap of broken shards have meant enars never lived up to its original design.

Suddenly one is not supposed to scout beyond the number of provinces needed to unlock a chapter?

Not according to the devs/CM's the clear communication was we were not expected to do the minimum scout. But their plans have clearly changed and no further information about it to us.

@Rythel Interesting idea but I don't think the devs will move away from the scout mechanism. It provides a point of difference for the wonders that use this and allows players choice that will impact on the wonder. In some ways upping the base amount makes sense so as it scales better for the longer scout times (4days, I am sure the devs won't accommodate 7day+ scout times). Only issue is would such a thing make it too powerful earlier in the game where current examples show the mana supply is good. Probably part of why it is (or appears to be) in the too hard basket.