How would you change the Spire formula?

[hvariidh gwendrot]

like the tournament changes that were going "to kill the game and make everyone quit" but in the game many more fellowships are reaching the 10+ chests level now, the spire though more complicated is seeing more folks dong better there as well .. the math did change, but it is a city builder game, and if you build right adding expansions and wonders is not really a factor in getting to the top of spire and scoring very well in tournaments .. no need to fear growing

 

[ajqtrz]

From reading all this it seems to me there are two issues at play.

First, that the formulas for the game seem to effect different levels of the game differently. In other words, whatever the formula for the Spire or the Tournament, it makes it harder on some players at some levels and easier (relatively) on others at other levels. Personally that seems unavoidable as the variances in player experience and style pretty much insures whatever formula is used it will only be relevant to a majority of players at any one level. Finding a formula that accounts for the variances and makes everything equally difficult for all players is probably impossible.

Second, the nature of the game itself seems to have become more and more military by necessity. The rewards for fighting (or catering, though that's too expensive to achieve the same thing as fighting in many cases), are necessary if you wish to progress at a reasonable pace. The progress of AW's is often impacted by the collection of KP in the tournament. The use of time instants is more possible when you do the Spire. Both of these, as examples, are almost required as you move up the chapters as the requirements for research continues to grow and grow. In the end the only way to play the game, I think, is to play the whole game, and that includes the military. But the military requires so much that you city slowly becomes a military city and other options/strategies are crowded out just to make progress.

So there is no answer to the "right formula" because there is no "right" or "perfect" formula. In the end there will always be people who become disillusioned by the game and it's changes as it becomes even more and more complex as features and opportunites are added, including the mistakes the Devs might make in the process.

In my opinion, for what it's worth, you not only have to be patient, but flexible in your thinking and execution, if you want to be satisfied in this game. All others will probably continue to wave good-bye.

AJ

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

makes it harder on some players at some levels and easier (relatively) on others at other levels. Personally that seems unavoidable as the variances in player experience and style pretty much insures whatever formula is used it will only be relevant to a majority of players at any one level. Finding a formula that accounts for the variances and makes everything equally difficult for all players is probably impossible.

Second, the nature of the game itself seems to have become more and more military by necessity. The rewards for fighting (or catering, though that's too expensive to achieve the same thing as fighting in many cases), are necessary if you wish to progress at a reasonable pace. The progress of AW's is often impacted by the collection of KP in the tournament. The use of time instants is more possible when you do the Spire. Both of these, as examples, are almost required as you move up the chapters as the requirements for research continues to grow and grow. In the end the only way to play the game, I think, is to play the whole game, and that includes the military. But the military requires so much that you city slowly becomes a military city and other options/strategies are crowded out just to make progress.

So there is no answer to the "right formula" because there is no "right" or "perfect" formula. In the end there will always be people who become disillusioned by the game and it's changes as it becomes even more and more complex as features and opportunites are added, including the mistakes the Devs might make in the process.

In my opinion, for what it's worth, you not only have to be patient, but flexible in your thinking and execution, if you want to be satisfied in this game. All others will probably continue to wave good-bye.

There might not be a right formula, there definitily is a wrong formula.
If a formula in a game it's best to regress and not to advance, it's a stupid and wrong formula.

A game is always about progress, regress should not be a factor.
Imagine WoW where after level 50 your character becomes worse and worse instead of better. than whats the point in playing beyond level 50?

 

[crackie]

There is also so much misunderstanding over the "formula" though. Most of the issues do not affect most players. There is also a lot of unwarranted fear mongering™.

(Trademark by @Iyapo1)

 

[hvariidh gwendrot]

yep most of the complaints are because inno wont make the game improvements based on what only the advanced players in forum want and btw that's a giant minority .. i have a city on all worlds with almost a 3 year span between my first and last so i can actually speak on how the changes effect different levels and styles and even human vs elf differences and the changes are fine and you do not need to make a city all military or even mostly military .. my advice is enjoy the game, build how you want, and then let your growth take care of any spire or tournament scores needed (because it will) vs trying to build a city designed just to do tournament and spire play and having the game play you
p.s. unless all you want to do is tournament and spire then more power to ya

 

[Killy-]

@hvariidh gwendrot
What if I want to play the game but don't want to lose power in the tournament because the formula is stupid? Maybe it is only a problem for players who care about it, but still something that could and should be fixed.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

What if I want to play the game but don't want to lose power in the tournament because the formula is stupid? Maybe it is only a problem for players who care about it, but still something that could and should be fixed.

Then don't try to get more than around 5000 points in the tournament? But seriously, when all the changes started on Beta, Inno pretty much stated that this was meant to make it harder and harder, the further past 5000 points someone tried to go.

 

[Killy-]

Then don't try to get more than around 5000 points in the tournament? But seriously, when all the changes started on Beta, Inno pretty much stated that this was meant to make it harder and harder, the further past 5000 points someone tried to go.

Harder and harder after point x in the tournament isn't the same thing as to punish progression.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Harder and harder after point x in the tournament isn't the same thing as to punish progression.

Well, the way Inno treats things, if the system works for 80 or 90% of the players, then there is no reason to adjust things to make that small minority happy and that small minority should adjust their gameplay, rather than expect to be catered to.

 

[BrinDarby]

But seriously, when all the changes started on Beta, Inno pretty much stated that this was meant to make it harder and harder, the further past 5000 points someone tried to go.

Harder and harder after point x in the tournament isn't the same thing as to punish progression.

it couldn't be as simple as ......
If Tpts>5000 then switch to harder formula

naaaaa, that would be way too easy ....

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

it couldn't be as simple as ......
If Tpts>5000 then switch to harder formula

naaaaa, that would be way too easy ....

The percent difference of your troop size vs enemy troop size grows with every additional province/star, but not in a linear growth, rather in a wave. I would have to try and dig up the old Beta post about this, but if I remember right, the growth starts slow, then accelerates for several provinces, then slows again, and then takes off again after maybe province 25-30. How some people manually fight and win in province 40 or 50 or 60, I do not understand. And this growth in squad difference is set in stone and not part of the formula at all. This is why we say the formula only makes the fights more expensive, but not harder.

 

[Myne]

Funny how anytime we discuss the spire formula, it tends to veer off into tourney territory. IMHO, if we want to know what everyone thinks of the spire formula, we would need a post dedicated to only that, with each player listing their beef, along with their chapter #, and whether they cater or fight, and if the Wonders are part of the formula, you would need that stated as well.
We could only get a representational figure anyway because only approximately 2% of players are represented here. It MAY give you an idea of what to try to change, but it MAY mess with even more peoples heads. Possibly causing explosions.

The same goes for the tourneys, with the same items listed by each contributor.

That's just the way I see it.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Funny how anytime we discuss the spire formula, it tends to veer off into tourney territory. IMHO, if we want to know what everyone thinks of the spire formula, we would need a post dedicated to only that, with each player listing their beef, along with their chapter #, and whether they cater or fight, and if the Wonders are part of the formula, you would need that stated as well.
We could only get a representational figure anyway because only approximately 2% of players are represented here. It MAY give you an idea of what to try to change, but it MAY mess with even more peoples heads. Possibly causing explosions.

The same goes for the tourneys, with the same items listed by each contributor.

That's just the way I see it.

Spire and tournament formulas are almost the same and both determine your squad size and neither has anything to do with actual difficulty.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

There is also so much misunderstanding over the "formula" though. Most of the issues do not affect most players. There is also a lot of unwarranted fear mongering™.

(Trademark by @Iyapo1)

It does affect all players, it's just that not all players care.
As long as the units they produce outweight there limited use any increase in costs will not be felt. but that doesnt mean the cost increase ain't there.

If you only do 10 provinces you are affected but for you not in a meaningfull way. the formula on the other hand is set up that evetually even 10 provicies will be difficult for the average user. but it will take a while before it wil snowball that badly out of control

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Spire and tournament formulas are almost the same and both determine your squad size and neither has anything to do with actual difficulty.

Yes and no

Yes the difficulty of the battle doesn't chance, but the difficulty fo recource management (read building / maintaining supply of units) does increase Especially the tournaments are a recource management game. how far you can go mainly depends on how many units you can sacrifice as there are an "unlimited" number of provincies to battle.
So an increase in unit costs does increase the difficulty of the tournament itself

 

[Myne]

Spire and tournament formulas are almost the same and both determine your squad size and neither has anything to do with actual difficulty.

I was speaking to how the formula affects each player. To get a true picture all would need to give input so you would know how the formula affects each player, with their own set of circumstances.

 

[Iyapo1]

@Myne I think I am confused. Minmax's spreadsheet does exactly this? So?

 

[edeba]

Wait a minute... Is the difficulty really the same as @crackie described and the only the change is the cost? I've read Minmax's formula differently and generally thought the difficulty increased with AW levels and expansions.

@crackie has opened my eyes, thank you! Great explanation.

About changes, I've never played the "old" version so don't really have anything to compare too. I've been able to top the Spire every week for the last 10 months (ever since they offered the Fire chicken) and never looked back. Yes, I need to use 5day boost buildings, sometimes as few as 2, rarely as many as 5, but I don't see a problem with that. I consider that the cost of doing business and timed properly, has helped advance my tournament scores and all the added benefits there.

I may be the odd man out, but I personally don't see a problem with the current formula. I'm happy the game continues to be challenging as my city grows and I advance through the chapters.

The difficult ratio for every province/level is the same, but increasing as you go through the provinces. But the increase in troop size from expansions and AW has a seriously huge range for what the starting troop size could be. 700:3500 is a more accurate representation of what the range for that starting troop size could be for a chapter 18 player who doesn't have premium expansions or AW levels to maxed premium expansions and AW levels.

And then they had 38 or 39 technology that increased troop size in chapter 18 and most other chapters had 28 or 29, so there was a significant greater troop size increase going from chapter 17 to 18 from the tech tree and the techs that gave benefits didn't come close to making up for the increased costs. I don't remember if it was one or two chapters that I calculated troop increase compared to ability to produce troops, but it was 35% troop increase and only 17% increased production.

 

[edeba]

hi, with the new 4 star units, staying in chapter 16 is still the most profitable for tournaments? did someone do the math?

I think chapter 15 is the most profitable, but 16 is better than 17, which is better than 18. But not the beginning of 15, you need the military tech from chapter 15 to be strong.

 

[edeba]

I guess that depends on your definition of profitable. Even with the expansions and AW levels added and research done, I can just as easily get 5000 tournament points at the end of chapter 18 as I did at the end of chapter 15.

But there's a huge difference in getting 12,000 points.