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Improved ancient wonders, what do people think? The best and worst.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by edeba, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. edeba

    edeba Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2016
    The developers said that they were going to improve the AW and I wonder what people think now that we've had them for awhile.

    I think the endless excavation is the biggest miss in terms of improving wonders, but I think overall, the wonder improvements are good, but not so much for strong trading players.

    What do others think?

    --------------------------

    Tome of Secrets - increased reward per scout is great, but no warning when we scout to spend some of our tools.

    Golden Abyss - Big reduction for lower levels, very nice for higher levels, increased coin production is great.

    Endless Excavation - Total miss on this one. The increased tools is only once per day and is a piddly amount compared to workshops. Getting the extra relic(s) per completed province is also really pathetic. The tournaments totally dwarf any real value here. This AW is a total miss in terms of making it worthwhile, imho.

    Needles of the Tempest - Wonderful difference to barrack training speed.

    Martial Monastery/Sanctuary - Better health is great if you do battles, which is kind of useless for trading players. The culture alone for the people who do not do battles really isn't enough to make this one worthwhile for that reason alone.

    Crystal Lighthouse/Great Bell Squire - The increase in goods from visiting neighbors is great and the added help duration received from visitors is also a very nice benefit if you have an active map/fellowship. Players can't do much about their map, but they can seek out a more active fellowship if they want to truly benefit from this reward.

    Watchtower Ruins - This one is probably more worthwhile once you game is bigger because it does take up space and gives a percent of your culture. If you have a small map and small culture, it is not that great. The help bonus is good, but again, it may not be much compared to using the space for an actual cultural building below a certain level.

    Thrones of the High Men - Better later in the game.

    Dwarven Bulwark - This is great for improving barrack training size and getting extra military units. I got something like an extra 15-20 minutes on my queued training time building another armory, but hours from a combination of the wonders that help with training size. I kid you not, upgrading an armory at a low level was giving me an extra 15 seconds on my total training time queue and with upgrades that added 10 units, only 2.5 minutes.

    Mountain Halls - It improves goods production 24/7 and increases population. It seems a small amount, but there is no extra work to get the reward, like visiting neighbors. It is big, so probably not so worthwhile until later when population is larger.

    Prosperity Towers - This does a nice increase to the PoP spell, but does require an active player to get the real benefit of supplies every 3 hours.

    Blooming trader guild - This is great for a bit of support for the guest races, and it helps to make the wholesaler worthwhile again.

    Heroes' Forge - This is a nice passive source of orcs, but would be much better with an advance 12 hour collection time.

    Shrine of the Shrewdy Shrooms - This really helps with barrack training size and gives some military units. It really isn't useful for those who play a trading only style.

    Enar's Embassy - This gives extra mana with a scout. Some players have several days per scout so that really dwarfs the value of the mana. It would be nice if it also did something about the huge scouting times so the mana benefit could be utilized more than a couple times per week.

    Flying Academy - This one increase the speed of the mercenary grounds, again, not much use to the non-military players.

    Maze of the Dark Matter - this gives some mana and reduces the rate of decay of mana.

    Dragon Abby - helps with mana and military strength. Not sure if the mana alone is good for non-military players.

    Temple of the toads

    Elvenar Trade Center
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  2. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the Endless Excavation:
    To understand the benefit of this building you need to see the whole picture.
    As an example, a level 23 workshop is the same size, and realistic production times of 9H + 3/3/3/3/3 yields about 28K supplies + culture bonus
    Compare that to 40K supplies from the Endless excavation.
    If you have a consistent culture bonus of 150%, then the workshop seems to edge out the EE...but does it really?
    Consider that the workshop is also costing you 1500 population, which is about 17 more squares of residences. Now that EE is doing pretty great per square compared to a workshop.

    Note: I've only done comparisons for chapters 6-10. I'm not sure how the EE does vs tiny low level workshops in the earliest chapters.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
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  3. Risen Malchiah

    Risen Malchiah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2017
    Helpful list for the updated AWs. Thank you.

    Change the wording in the Dwarven Bulwark. As it is currently written, that is way too confusing.

    Edit: Much better now, thank you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
    osideglen likes this.
  4. edeba

    edeba Well-Known Member

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    Aug 13, 2016
    I think it is the lack of ability to use something like the PoP spell that mutes the endless excavation. I run a lot of PoP spells. I truly was not considering the size of the difference because of running the PoP spells.

     
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  5. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    While it is possible, I doubt you run PoP spells all the time on all of your workshops, unless you have a level 5 MA pumping out nothing but PoP spells 24/7, so if you had one less workshop to buff, you could just buff another one more often.

    It's not like you can replace all of your workshops with Endless Excavations. Replacing one is a pretty good idea when you consider the space you save and the buttloads of supplies, coins, and time you will use upgrading a workshop throughout it's lifespan. Missing out on a single building to use a PoP spell on won't hurt.

    Also when you run into chapters like orcs, not having your production completely tied to culture is very nice.;)
     
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  6. edeba

    edeba Well-Known Member

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    I have 4 magic workshops and I run 2 to 4 PoP spells pretty much daily on the magic ones. 1 hour production from one magic shop gives close to 25k of supplies, so if I run 4 with spells I get about 100k every hour. I get all of the PoP I need from the tournaments.

     
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  7. Risen Malchiah

    Risen Malchiah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2017
    I never make PoP spells except during holiday events that ask for it (and now that they're available in tournaments, sometimes not at all) and I have over 140 of them backed up. I never used them until I started the guest races and now I use them regularly, but I still seem to collect more than I can use. :)
     
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  8. Pheryll

    Pheryll Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2017
    I think one of the biggest changes was making Ancient Wonders no longer subject to the culture bonus. Endless Excavation and Prosperity Towers may each replace one workshop if adequately leveled, but the crystal lighthouse and watchtower ruins combo is so much more effective in boosting workshop production and this combo does not help Endless Excavation or Prosperity Towers.

    I think the big winner as far as Ancient Wonders goes would be the golden abyss. Leaving this wonder at level 1 as you go through the chapters will eventually cause it to pay for the space it takes up, while other ancient wonders really need to be leveled to around level 6 for their bonuses to be worth their space.
     
  9. edeba

    edeba Well-Known Member

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    Aug 13, 2016
    I never really thought about the crystal lighthouse and watchtower ruins and on the workshop. The prosperity tower's bonus on the PoP spell also makes the workshops more powerful.

     
  10. Reiq

    Reiq Well-Known Member

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    Tome of Secrets - one of the best AWs right now - tons of supplies plus extra KP for a building 4x4 building that doesn't require population or culture, uhm, yes please. Might stop working at some point (when Orcs stop you from negotiating) but that's minor issue.

    Golden Abyss - technically it's a building that reduces pop requirement for all buildings (if you think about it)...nuff said, just great for 3x3. Shines during mid-to-end game, basically meaning that it's a nice AW to have when you hit dwarves, and is must-have AW when you hit Woodelves.

    Endless Excavation - worse than Tome of Secrets (even when scouting time becomes longer than 24h, just personal opinion). It's bigger than ToS and relics amount is negligible. Still better than a Workshop in most cases, just because it doesn't require population and culture.

    Needles of the Tempest - any AW that increases training speed of "X" building and/or strenght of "X" unit belongs to "meh" category. Usage is just too narrow. Great in a Steel tournament though, lol. Build only if you have extra space, otherwise - skip and build something better.

    Martial Monastery/Sanctuary - my most hated AW for a long time...but after rework it's good, really good. Extra HP helps more than you think, because of the dumb AI value of this AW varies from saving none of your units to 1-2 squads. Culture is great and will surpass regalar culture buildings unless you're planning to keep it lvl 1 forever.

    Crystal Lighthouse/Great Bell Spire - can be one of the most amazing AW ever and at the same time one of the worst AW. It's big and it's value is based on your playstyle. If you're not visiting a lot and/or asking for culture Neighborly Help it's a total waste of space, get rid of it asap. On the other hand, if you're a good person you visit a lot and/or care about culture NH, then it's a must-have AW for you. Doesn't actually need leveling as much as other AWs do, meaning that it's good even at lvl 1.

    Watchtower Ruins - would be absolutely amazing AW if only it's primary effect would simply increase culture amount your culture buildings are providing, but... it's not like that. It's situational. Just like previous AW on the list. Other than that, it's just a culture building that's smaller than Monastery/Sanctuary...and that actually makes it really good on it's own.

    Thrones of the High Men - just don't build this, unless for the looks (because it's glorious) and/or if you plan to make it your go to AW, meaning that you plan to level it and other AWs like crazy. It's huge, it gives small amount of culture and a minor increase in ranking points. True enough, eventually it will become great AW....eventually.

    Dwarven Bulwark - must have AW for any player who values his/hers army. I have it at lvl 3 and at some point of the game I was thinking about ditching my armories. Yeah, it's that good.

    Mountain Halls - think of this AW like worse version of Golden Abyss. It's huge, but it's effect population wise is the same. Goods production boost is negligible, feel free to disregard it completely. Don't build it unless you have extra space and you have nothing to with it.

    Prosperity Towers - it's better than a regular workshop plus it makes your Power of Provision spell better. If you struggle with supplies - a good AW to have.

    Blooming trader guild - a must-have AW in Sorcerers&Dragons chapter. Before that or past that it's okay.

    Heroes' Forge - big, situational.... in my opinion worst AW as of right now.

    Shrine of the Shrewdy Shrooms - value scales with amount of armories you have. Might be better than Bulwark, might be worse. Just check the numbers before you build it.

    Enar's Embassy - if only it wouldn't be so huge... build only if you don't have better options to gain mana (you do, though).

    Flying Academy - see "Needles of the Tempest".

    Maze of the Dark Matter - looks good on paper, not so much in practice. Needs heavy leveling to be good.

    Dragon Abby - I love this AW. Dragon Abbey is love, Dragon Abbey is life. It's situational though. If you participate in tournaments and/or have maxed Academy, it's absolutely great. It can give you more mana than a premium culture buildings at level 1, and it's the only building that can bypass decay aspect (because you can gain mana instantly and spend it right away, so there won't be anyting left to decay).
     
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  11. CrazyWizard

    CrazyWizard Well-Known Member

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    Dec 24, 2016
    I have a few levels in all wonders which makes them really shine, while some wonders might have value at level 1, they really start to do wonders once there around lvl 10 or higher.
    I look at this from an end game prospective.



    I love this wonder now, the knowledge points are a nice thing just to get, but the supplies are absolutly awesome.
    even with 2 day scouts there awesome replenishments. I always had masses of factories and a barracks running 24/7, but since the new "supply" wonders including this one, I can run 30 factories and dont even need to quest anymore, even when expanding into a new race and upgrading buildings.
    While before running 20 factories required constant quest cycling.

    This wonder start do do it's job once your entering the guest races, at higher levels this wonder is amazing. at full power at the end of the halfling with a fully explored map I expect this wonder can give you almost 20k extra population.

    The supplies are pretty good expecially at higher game levels when having culture bonusses is no longer guaranteed. the main problem I have with this wonder is it's timer of 24 hours. this shifts the harvest back bit by bit untill your at a time you're unable to harvest.
    23 hours like neighbourly help would be much better. I find the relic gimmick totally useless.

    If your a combateer / tournament player a must have, not just the barrack training speed increase which is awesome, also the power it gives to your archers, it makes the archers really good.

    it's not that much worse than the watchtower if thats your concern.
    while it surely aint the first wonder as a non combateer you like to build. when you have the KP to spare to level this wonder, it can award you with 40k culture. thats over twice the best culture building in-game.

    I love it, but this wonder only shines of you are really active. for many players they can increase there goods output by 50-100%
    from an end game prospective this wonder allows you to aquire a 125% culture bonus again. (with watchtower sometimes 150%)

    This wonder surely needs some levels to shine. dont underestimate the power of the neighbourly help potency increase of your culture buildings.

    end game wonder, cant make it better, the thig I love about it it that it now does more than ranking points, the culure gain from it is a really nice addition.
    but without quite a bit of wonder levels this wonder is kinda pointless.

    Gives the weakest unit of all the unit givers, but anything free i'll take it.
    My 5 armouries by ~lvl 10 bulwark and my ~lvl 10 shady schroom give me a 18 hours worth of barracks training time (with 20 lvl of needles speed increase).
    In short I never have to worry about a barracks not producing.

    The building is large but if you add the numbers in added good production calculating the gross room needed for factories and there chain of supply it's a bargain. on top of it it gives population which like the golden abbyss can go really crazy at late game.

    once you gain some levels here even if you harvest it only a few times a day there is no workshop who can get up to par with it.
    I think atm it gives me 52k supplies now every 3 hours. compare that to the 3 hour supply of a normal workshop (4800 pre 3 hours no culture bonus) or magical workshop (8400 pre 3 hours no culture again) even if I would harvest it once a day it still goves me more than the workshop.
     
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  12. CrazyWizard

    CrazyWizard Well-Known Member

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    nice for guest races pointless otherwise. by the time you get this wonder the trader fee reduction already does no longer exist or is ever used.

    23 hours for the same reason as the excavation, again you ignore the massive power boost treants and paladins get from it.
    For a tournament player a must have wonder.

    this wonder grants for free the very stong archer, as an elf player this is the unit I use the most of all units, if not as main attacker than as splash to deal with the pesky mages who try to kill my golems and treants.
    If your a tournament player and an elf, BUILD IT!

    I find this wonder useless, the mana gain could have been nice if not a single chapter later 2 much better wonders join the game.
    I rather would sit out that chapter and get the really good ones and invest my precious KP in those.

    And once again you forget the second power, while for the elves the gain in sorcs aint that great, the priest humans get is there stronges unit, for humans a must have for tournament players.

    It makes it a lot easier to atain those high levels of mana, the biggest thing holding you back advancing trough the chapters is the lack of mana. dont underestimate the power of reduced decay. also the mana gain if you can unload this often enough is quite a lot per square compared to regular mana buildings

    This wonder NEEDS LEVELS!!!! (and as many finished provinces as possible) at start the power is not more than a gimmick, with enough levels this wonder when correctly played can eliminate the need for ANY mana building on your town. this thing was build to be abused!.
    Combine this wonder with a lvl 5 magic workshop and/or tournaments and you'll never need any mana building ever again.

    The secondaty power will help a lot during the mages tournaments.

    Must have for tournament players, especially for elves with there awesome golems becomming even more awesome, oh and you get them for free as well.
    For humans they need to combine this with orc strategist, canonneers simply don't make the cut, just like sorceres doesnt make the cut for elves compared to the priest.
    Must have for elvish tournament players, nice have for humans.

    I really are split in 2 about this wonder, the seeds are pointless, I already have trillions to many of those leaving the increase of the MM spell. if properly used especially with a lvl 5 magical academy this might be very well worth it as it doubles your goods production for up to a day. and with a large enough magical adademy you "might" be able to really make the cut in the tournaments with just trading. I do not have a lvl 5 magical academy so I havent delved into the numbers.
     
  13. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    Actually both of these wonders beat out a workshop in supplies per square when they are level 1. Even if you have 150% culture bonus. (remember to factor in all of the pop/culture that you save)
    The math on this is proven for chapters 6-10 (haven't checked rest). But does assume that you collect from PT 4 times a day.
    This is indeed an excellent combo, and even was before the changes. unfortunately it starts to slide in chapters 8 and 9.
    In chapter 8 many players end up reducing their culture to 100% in order to make extra farms and rally points to avoid being techlocked, and by doing so even asking for all culture buffs from you FS might not get you to that 125%. Chapter 9 is worse because the recommended 12-16 Weeping Willows that you need in order to have enough mana can easily put you at 170% culture with zero visits, making the CLH/WT totally useless.
     
  14. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    This is irrelevant to the discussion. The question is "Should a player replace one normal workshop with the EE?"
    Do you ONLY have 4 magical workshops? Zero normal ones?
     
  15. Pheryll

    Pheryll Active Member

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    I was talking about replacing the total productivity of one workshop rather than square for square ratio with population and culture considered, as the thrust of the message was comparing one set of AW to another.
     
  16. kayleegrrl

    kayleegrrl Well-Known Member

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    ^^So much this!

    I have never had a need for a high level armory because of the Bulwark. My highest armories are 2 level 16 Dwarven ones, with those combined with the Bulwark, I still produce enough troops to fight in provinces and tournaments in chapter 9.
     
  17. Pheryll

    Pheryll Active Member

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    Huh? Chapter 9 is Wood Elves; where is your Orc Production? Perhaps you stocked up on Orc nests during the Easter event.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  18. kayleegrrl

    kayleegrrl Well-Known Member

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    Yes! I never had an Orc level armory and now I have 36,000 Orcs that I have never had to pay for because of my 6 Orc Nests ;) Those 6 Orc nests took me through the entire Orc chapter :D

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  19. Reiq

    Reiq Well-Known Member

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    Sick culture bonus.
     
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