Dew Spinner
Well-Known Member
If you were to comment on every combative post on this forum that would keep you very, very busy for a very,very long time! LOL
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Your Elvenar Team
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
That's because you are reading it with your own particular tilt.
Try this:
"You ONLY need to level it to 6 to make it awesome, it's ALREADY great at level 1, you can make it EVEN BETTER by going higher, but it isn't needed."
It's scout time dependant.
The short answer is basically always. The only exceptions are players at the extreme ends of the scouting spectrum.
- those who almost never scout because they want to stay in the same chapter for months/years
- those who have scouted 500+ provinces
Now, after all these years of beating my workshops, I need to upgrade the ToS all the way up to....7 for it to be better again.
My only regret is not putting it up to level 11 five years ago- cost me over 1,800 KP
Lava codex:
Culture= 6500
Base 2x2 =4
1625 c/s
MResidence:
pop= 13000
base= 20 squares
Road= 2
culture bonus= 170
culture = -5370*1.70 (9129/1625.5=5.6)
Footprint= 27.6 (20+2+5.6)
Output 471 p/s
Mworkshop
Supplies= 731000
Base 5x6 = 30
road= 2.5
pop = -11653 (11653/471=24.74)
culture bonus= 170
culture= -8307*1.70 (8307/1625=5.11)
Footprint= 62.35 (30+2.5++24.74+5.11)
Output= =11,724 supplies/s/d (731000/62.35)
ToS=552,000 per scout
Base= 4x4
Roads= 2
Footprint= 18 (16+2)
Output= 30,666 supplies per square per scout
Comparison:
30,666/11724*24=62 Must scout once per 62 hours for ToS to equal workshop productions.
Comparison for Level 7 ToS:
33,222/11724*24=68 Must scout once per 68 hours for ToS to equal workshop productions.
Culture= 6500
Base 2x2 =4
1625 c/s
MResidence:
pop= 13000
base= 20 squares
Road= 2
culture bonus= 170
culture = -5370*1.70 (9129/1625.5=5.6)
Footprint= 27.6 (20+2+5.6)
Output 471 p/s
Mworkshop
Supplies= 731000
Base 5x6 = 30
road= 2.5
pop = -11653 (11653/471=24.74)
culture bonus= 170
culture= -8307*1.70 (8307/1625=5.11)
Footprint= 62.35 (30+2.5++24.74+5.11)
Output= =11,724 supplies/s/d (731000/62.35)
ToS=552,000 per scout
Base= 4x4
Roads= 2
Footprint= 18 (16+2)
Output= 30,666 supplies per square per scout
Comparison:
30,666/11724*24=62 Must scout once per 62 hours for ToS to equal workshop productions.
Comparison for Level 7 ToS:
33,222/11724*24=68 Must scout once per 68 hours for ToS to equal workshop productions.
shimmerfly
Well-Known Member
@Dew Spinner
True and I aplogoze. Feeling grumpy myself today.
True and I aplogoze. Feeling grumpy myself today.
Dew Spinner
Well-Known Member
Ok, so that clears up the "only level it to level 6" comment you made. It was confusing that you would have it but advise to only level it to level 6, it made it sound like it wasn't worth the penalty past level 6 or it didn't keep pace past level 6, has nothing to do with my "tilt". I will say that I can do the same as a level 6 TOS with the combo of NH spells and Supply spells and that costs me no penalty and I have the supplies readily available instead of waiting 62+ hrs for them. You are constantly in need of supplies for training and Orc production, so you need the WS anyways, as far as pop and culture figure into it. So unless you are super cramped for space, which I am not, I don't see the excellent value in it and as far as I know the new advisable game play since the tournament changes is to keep your AWs and AW levels to a minimum, I would rather put those 6 or 7 levels into my MM or Needles.
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Dew Spinner
Well-Known Member
No worries!
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
The spike in supplies is a factor, but the vast majority of players don't have 500+ provinces scouted so the times are not 60+ hours
It's easy to mitigate the spikes anyways with strategies like
"Scout one day, use a PoP spell the other day" etc
When your scout times are under 24h it's very simple to send out your scout, collect from armories and use those ToS supplies on your armories.
Expansions hurt you in the tournament/spire far far more than 6 AW levels so if the ToS saves space (which it absolutely does) then it helps you in the formula
Dew Spinner
Well-Known Member
If your game plan is to keep your expansions low to begin with and as advised use premium expansions as much as possible, then this is somewhat negligible, I understand that a lot of players aren't into the premium expansions, so of course this is a case by case thing. I personally have a lot of WS and factories but I could easily get rid of some, when space becomes an issue. I am just keeping them around until I need the space. I have 8 Magic WS now, I could easily go down to 4 when the space need arises. I will have a certain number of expansions anyways (121 to 125), so what I fill them with at this point comes down to penalty/no penalty. I would rather fill them with only the AWs that I will be taking through the whole game and leveling up to 26 to 31 levels. I did build the Dwarven Bulwark and Endless Excavations as starter wonders but will be getting rid of both soon, recently got my Prosperity Towers and soon will get my Shrooms and then it is bye bye to those 2.I believe if you do the tournament as hard as you can and all 3 floors of the spire, supplies and land/pop/culture for those supplies will never be an issue between the NH spells, supply spells, supply instants and Magic WS (unless the RNG doesn't give you many MWSs). So, therefore, in my book, the TOS is not worth it's penalty, I know this is a personal opinion but both sides of the story need to be out there so newer players can decide for themselves if it is worth it to them or not.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
Why will you "have 121 to 125 expansions "anyways"?
Just because you unlock them from provinces & techs doesn't mean you have to place them. The formula is only affected by placed expansions.
So if your choice is
120 expansions using a ToS to save workshops space (and 2 unplaced expansions because you don't need them thanks to the ToS)
vs
122 expansions using more workshops to make up for lack of ToS plus a tiny increase from 1-6 AW levels
Then the ToS could be better. You have to actually do the math before deciding that one is simply better.
Yes, as stated previously in this thread: If you can sustain 24/7 PoP spells on Magic Workshops, then the ToS is inferior.
Dew Spinner
Well-Known Member
That is the amount that I feel will give me the least amount of penalty,a decent amount of them will be premium which will lessen my penalty further. I think it would be pretty hard to run a city with less than that, So, the question is what to fill those 121 to 125 expansions with, which by the way is a pretty meager space area. I have whittled down the AWs to 11 to 13, I will have all Magic WS and Magic Residences, huge space saver, I have the Pilgram's, another huge space saver, 5 Goblin gift shops, another space saver. I will probably, in the near future, go down to 4 Magic WS, with supply spells and NH spells that should be more than enough supplies and easily spelled consistently and I will save the space and penalty of the TOS for another vastly more useful AW. I would much rather perfer 6 more levels to my MM than to a low level TOS and take less penalty for the total AW levels, 30 levels on MM instead of 30 levels on MM and 6 levels on TOS. It doesn't sound like much but when all those little savings add up they become a much more significant factor because of the exponetial nature of the penalty formula. I understand that older players are somewhat strapped with extra AWs and AW levels because they don't want to sell what they have invested time and KP into but newer players are not in that position and it behooves them to keep the AWs and AW levels to a minimum and only build and level the "best" ones for their playstyle. I can see the TOS being more beneficial to a cater only city but you have said yourself that most cater only cities are eventually forced to go to a hybrid model.
Dew Spinner
Well-Known Member
Just to clarify the 121 to 125 expansions is my end goal, I don't have that many now.
TalimSwift
Active Member
When you first get your ToS, raise it to 11 ASAP. The sooner you do it the better. Ignore the Golden Abyss until ToS is 11. At your level, those extra supplies will come very handy. Also, the sooner you raise it to 11 means that the faster you will recoup all those KP invested.
Since it gives you research KP instead of Wonders KP, thats a tiny added benefit. You can somewhat trade in those KP instants for future regular KP.
Those who argue against the ToS just dont get it. Not that many buildings give 3 KP per day, so go for it!
But if you wait too long, it will become increasingly less appealing to work on it
And all that BS about spire/tourneys becoming "harder", ignore that too. If you build your town right, it shouldnt matter, you will be able to fight whatever size they throw at you. One advice i would give is, try building your town to allow you to fight, In other words, dont make a catering town, that is a very losing strategy in the long term, and that is why those who complain about spire costs going up scratch their heads. To keep afloat, they must constantly increase the number and or size of their factories. A fighter town has only 3 buildings to grow. And the wonders are mostly designed to help your fighting, not your goods output
Since it gives you research KP instead of Wonders KP, thats a tiny added benefit. You can somewhat trade in those KP instants for future regular KP.
Those who argue against the ToS just dont get it. Not that many buildings give 3 KP per day, so go for it!
But if you wait too long, it will become increasingly less appealing to work on it
And all that BS about spire/tourneys becoming "harder", ignore that too. If you build your town right, it shouldnt matter, you will be able to fight whatever size they throw at you. One advice i would give is, try building your town to allow you to fight, In other words, dont make a catering town, that is a very losing strategy in the long term, and that is why those who complain about spire costs going up scratch their heads. To keep afloat, they must constantly increase the number and or size of their factories. A fighter town has only 3 buildings to grow. And the wonders are mostly designed to help your fighting, not your goods output
Dew Spinner
Well-Known Member
It would take a very long time to recoup the KP invested into a level 11 TOS. I'm sure @SoggyShorts has the exact number of KP needed for a level 11 TOS.
Henroo
Oh Wise One
It will take 888 knowledge points to level ToS to level 6. To go from level 6 to level 11 will require an additional 1800 knowledge points. So a total of 2688 to get to level 11. I would add that in addition to the supplies it provides (which is the main reason to build it) you could hope to regain the cost of upgrading it to level 6. It will be giving you 2 KPs a day, so in 444 days it would pay back the KP cost of every upgrade to that point. You are not likely to get the cost back to upgrade it to level 11 (would take roughly 5 years) so supplies are the only reason to upgrade it that far.
TalimSwift
Active Member
But if you use a decent KP=sharing system, you will get aboout 18-20% back. so it will cost you about 2100.
365 days x 3 = 1095.
So in 2 years you recoup it. (Henroo, you forgot to multiply by 3 instead of 2, since at 11 you now get 3 per day)
It seems like a long time, but, if you dont plan on playing this game for 2 years, QUIT RIGHT NOW
365 days x 3 = 1095.
So in 2 years you recoup it. (Henroo, you forgot to multiply by 3 instead of 2, since at 11 you now get 3 per day)
It seems like a long time, but, if you dont plan on playing this game for 2 years, QUIT RIGHT NOW
Dew Spinner
Well-Known Member
So, you are not gaining any KP benefit from it for 2 years, only recouping what you spent. That's not a benefit!
Henroo
Oh Wise One
At level 6 it give 2 KPs a day. At level 11 it will give 3 KPs a day. It costs 1800 KPs to go from level 6 to level 11. When I said "roughly 5 years" I was referring to how long it would take for the increased KP output to pay for the cost of the upgrades from level 6 to level 11. Sorry if I was unclear originally.
Henroo
Oh Wise One
The primary purpose of it is providing supplies. The KP is very much a secondary consideration.
mikeledo
Well-Known Member
At one time the ToS was worth it. Now KP is cheap. I deleted my level 6 ToS and kept my level 11. If I had to do all over I would not build ToS Endless Ex, Enar Embassy, and Vortex Storage. I deleted my Enar at levels 6 and 11. I kept my EE and Vortex because they were at 11.
TalimSwift
Active Member
That's one way to look at it. But another is, its the only wonder (aside from the library 15 or 16 chapters later) that you CAN recoup all the KP invested...
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
121 is far from meager IMO.
I have 121 in chapter 16 and my latest layout has 30 expansions for FA turds/settlement (LINK)
Like you said, the question is what to fill it with, and if you want to be a hardcore tournament player the answer might be
"The best per square buildings so that I can place the lowest number of expansions"
If you're interested you can use use minmax's calc + my calcs above to see if ToS at level 6 has a greater impact than the expansions that it saves.
I've done the rough math in my head and it pans out, but I can't be bothered to put pen to paper.