KP donation notifications

[Happii]

I have sees this published before, but I still think this is a very good feature. Then you never get mixed up who is donating how much to who, and it is easy to see if you have donated the correct amount to the correct player.
Exampel: We have a 90 KP thread, and then PlayerX donates 60 KP to me, but writes in the 90 KP thread. I cannot exactly see what happened (unless I continoulsy keep track on all donations) as several players total donations are above 90. (Of course if my wonder says "PlayerX 60 KP" then it is easy to spot). Now when I face playerX with the missing 30 KP, he will keep saying that he surely donated the 90 KP, and noone can prove different.
If the notification log both for playerX and me said "donated 60 KP to Happiis ETC" and "PlayerX donated 60KP to your ETC" - then everyone would be able to spot the error and no angry or suspicious faces in the Fellowship...
And make this option clickable so not everyone has to see these notications, please.

 

[Darielle]

It's fairly easy to see if someone donated the correct amount as long as you keep track of the time/date that you upgrade your wonders. I have a list and I know when I upgraded each wonder. That resets the clock on donations. For example:

I upgrade my wonder from level 14 to level 15 on Monday, July 1st, at 10am. If I think someone has not given me enough kp, I can easily prove it just by going through the threads and seeing how many threads they took, and the times they took them from me. If they took a 30kp thread on July 2 and a 50 kp thread on July 4, then I know they owe me 80 kp and can prove it by the message thread. If there is 80 kp in my wonder under their name, then there is no problem. If there is 60kp in my wonder under their name, I can point out that they've taken two threads from me and the dates.

This really only comes up with a few people, who tend to repeatedly undercount their donations. Those few people are all you have to keep an eye on. The vast majority are honest and will not cheat you. I often find more kp than I am owed in my wonders. People will sometimes round up in my favor.

If certain people repeatedly cheat you, make sure you let your AM know so that he/she can handle it and talk to the person. If they repeatedly do that to you, then it's very likely she knows about them and has had complaints from others, too. I know of an AM who has banned a certain person from using the AW threads and has even gone out of her way to write out all the names on the larger threads and exclude theirs from the thread (rather than pressing the fellowship button). It's an option if it becomes necessary.

 

[Katwick]

It's getting into NetZero territory, but if folks contribute MORE than the largest Reward Chest that's available, there's a negative benefit because it typically takes several days to level each AW.

The best strategy is save up enough AW Tokens (2/3rds of the amount) to level your OWN AW immediately after a group of small (1/3rd total) contributions.

The worst strategy is to gradually fill up several AWs, which is characteristic of swap threads, because there's no limit on individual contributions so the more advanced players will capture most of the reward chests.

The distinction is that you SHOULD REUSE the Rewards from the chests, several times over, and can actually use the chests to convert KPs and excess Runes into storable AW Tokens.

And there's no issue with contributions if folks simply contribute the amount for largest remaining chest. Swap threads are their own worse enemy, and clumsy to boot.

 

[Dhurrin]

If I think someone has not given me enough kp, I can easily prove it just by going through the threads and seeing how many threads they took, and the times they took them from me. If they took a 30kp thread on July 2 and a 50 kp thread on July 4, then I know they owe me 80 kp and can prove it by the message thread. If there is 80 kp in my wonder under their name, then there is no problem. If there is 60kp in my wonder under their name, I can point out that they've taken two threads from me and the dates.

Though true in itself, that does depend on how many KP threads a FS has and how intensively they are used.
We have threads for 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 60, 90, 120 KPs and one for larger swaps. Oh and a wild rune swap. And all of them have participants in our own FS and some from a sister FS, so some days the pace is really fast.
Since all are heavily used, I have to refresh all of them every 7-10 days because they get so long it causes a lag on older systems, so backtracking can be pretty timeconsuming. Especially since missing KPs can be a matter of a combination of several threads.

But generally it comes to just teaching members to take a few seconds longer and make sure they donate correctly and check the thread for possible collisions. We haven't had any issues that didn't get resolved very fast in a long time.
Best solution in my eyes is to make sure everyone just takes a bit of extra time and pay attention.

 

[Dhurrin]

It's getting into NetZero territory, but if folks contribute MORE than the largest Reward Chest that's available, there's a negative benefit because it typically takes several days to level each AW.

The best strategy is save up enough AW Tokens (2/3rds of the amount) to level your OWN AW immediately after a group of small (1/3rd total) contributions.

That is YOUR opinion. I try to avoid adding KPS to my own AWs. No real need to either, I rather spend all my KPs on the AWs of other players so I get more returns.
And there is no 'negative effect' on donating more than the maximum chest. In the end the swaps are swaps, so every point I invest in someone else's AW will come back through the chains, so you always end up getting at least as much as you gave. Everything gained from chests earned is just extra. Not 'winning' 100 extra KPs does not equate a loss.

If I invest 600 KPs and get back 600, it's neither a loss nor a gain. If I invest 600 KPs and get back something from a chest it is a positive effect.
The only way to have a 'loss' is if you donate randomly without getting anything back at all. And even that is debatable; it does generate extra room for you so you won't get KP-locked as easily which for some people might be a gain in itself.

The worst strategy is to gradually fill up several AWs, which is characteristic of swap threads, because there's no limit on individual contributions so the more advanced players will capture most of the reward chests.

That I actually do agree on. It is much better to work 1 AW at a time as having several half filled AWs don't give extra benefits, but 1 finished one does as soon as it is upgraded.

The distinction is that you SHOULD REUSE the Rewards from the chests, several times over, and can actually use the chests to convert KPs and excess Runes into storable AW Tokens.

And there's no issue with contributions if folks simply contribute the amount for largest remaining chest. Swap threads are their own worse enemy, and clumsy to boot.

As for chains being clumsy; maybe that is your experience. Sadly, that means you only have had some badly organized/supervised chains. We use our chains often, intensely and at a high pace and everyone who does benefits from that. Whether they participate or not is up to them. But the ones that don't have their AWs generally at (much) lower levels than the ones that do. Which is a choice.

Right now I'm sitting on this, a bit over 19.000 KPs in instants. and that's not counting any runes I can use, or the regular KPs from collections, Wonders, Evolving buildings, events or tourney.

So I could use all that on my own AWs, but that means zero return. That actually is a loss. So instead I spend it on the chains, or on AWs on players on my map that are almost finished and have open chests up for grabs (which usually are players who invest only in their own AWs and have no others contributing).

Or I can use your suggestion; that means that without a doubt I will be the one grabbing all the top-gold chests from everyone in my FS as nobody will come even close to this. And because of that, I'd only be getting more and more and nobody would ever be able to outdo that.
With the chains, anyone can end up being the one to grab the top chest.

 

[Katwick]

If you announce your OWN AW when you've accumulated the 2/3rds AW Instants to finish off your OWN AW as soon as all the chests are finished, that recycles the contributor Instants for reuse.

REUSE is the key concept as leveling includes 1/3rd Reward instants. KPs that don't return AW Instants within a day or so will probably just sit there and rot.

 

[Iyapo]

I really like well run swap threads, and I have zero complaints with net zero. It is just a different perspective.

In netzero all of the AWKP and RuneShard KP Value belong to the owner of the wonder. Donations equal chest value so the owner of the wonder makes 100% profit off their own chests and 0% profit off teammates chests.

In the swap threads the AWKP and RuneShard KP Value belong to whoever donated to the chests and the owner of the wonder gets 0% profit off their own chests and 100% profit of teammates chests.

Both of these methods have problems and benefits.

 

[Katwick]

I apparently don't understand your point.

In both instances the AW Instants and Runes are awarded to whomever claimed the chest.

The distinction is that in NetZero the owner of the AW SELF-LEVELS 2/3rds while aii other contributors get back exactly the value that they contributed, which reduces bookkeeping, hence NetZero. NetZero also allows for multiple concurrent AWs, which speeds things up.

There's a mild benefit in that contributors can reliably convert excess Runes and KPs into storable AW Instants, but the PRIMARY benefit is that you can level your OWN AWs for 2/3rds the price, because folks give you a short-term LOAN for the remaining 1/3rd.

 

[Killy-]

Using a better system then swap threads would negate the problem but that's not really the topic here if I am not mistaken.

I wouldn't be against the idea, as long everyone could choose to deactivate the notification. The problem I see is, your 60 kps wouldn't be one notification but maybe 6 for 10 kp each or worst case 60 notification for 1 kp each unless the program it in some smart way.

 

[Darielle]

That is YOUR opinion. I try to avoid adding KPS to my own AWs. No real need to either, I rather spend all my KPs on the AWs of other players so I get more returns.
And there is no 'negative effect' on donating more than the maximum chest. In the end the swaps are swaps, so every point I invest in someone else's AW will come back through the chains, so you always end up getting at least as much as you gave. Everything gained from chests earned is just extra. Not 'winning' 100 extra KPs does not equate a loss.

If I invest 600 KPs and get back 600, it's neither a loss nor a gain. If I invest 600 KPs and get back something from a chest it is a positive effect.
The only way to have a 'loss' is if you donate randomly without getting anything back at all. And even that is debatable; it does generate extra room for you so you won't get KP-locked as easily which for some people might be a gain in itself.


That I actually do agree on. It is much better to work 1 AW at a time as having several half filled AWs don't give extra benefits, but 1 finished one does as soon as it is upgraded.


As for chains being clumsy; maybe that is your experience. Sadly, that means you only have had some badly organized/supervised chains. We use our chains often, intensely and at a high pace and everyone who does benefits from that. Whether they participate or not is up to them. But the ones that don't have their AWs generally at (much) lower levels than the ones that do. Which is a choice.

Right now I'm sitting on this, a bit over 19.000 KPs in instants. and that's not counting any runes I can use, or the regular KPs from collections, Wonders, Evolving buildings, events or tourney.

So I could use all that on my own AWs, but that means zero return. That actually is a loss. So instead I spend it on the chains, or on AWs on players on my map that are almost finished and have open chests up for grabs (which usually are players who invest only in their own AWs and have no others contributing).

Or I can use your suggestion; that means that without a doubt I will be the one grabbing all the top-gold chests from everyone in my FS as nobody will come even close to this. And because of that, I'd only be getting more and more and nobody would ever be able to outdo that.
With the chains, anyone can end up being the one to grab the top chest.

I agree with you on all points, Dhurrin. I love the swaps and they work perfectly for me ... and I've tried all the methods. It's just more rewarding in the end and so much simpler than trying to herd cats and making sure that people only donate what the chest is worth.

I'm not sure who said that swaps are only advantageous to big players, but whoever did, I disagree. My little ID is getting great help from the AW swaps. No problems there either.

In the end, however, we all have our favorite methods ... live and let live. No one is right or wrong. If a fellowship has a method some members don't like, then they can find another that suits better. There's plenty out there.

 

[Katwick]

I'm not sure who said that swaps are only advantageous to big players, but whoever did, I disagree. My little ID is getting great help from the AW swaps. No problems there.

In a swap thread the advanced players end up with the larger chests, simply because they contribute the indicated amount more frequently, so the lower level players seldom get the Runes that they need, while the more advanced players can't get rid of their excess.

In NetZero the smaller players can jump on the Runes that they need by claiming a large chest. In fact it's common practice to allow the smaller players to jump the gun for the Runes that they need. As subsequent contribution are limited to the value of the largest available chest, the smaller players won't be bumped.

 

[Dhurrin]

In a swap thread the advanced players end up with the larger chests, simply because they contribute the indicated amount more frequently, so the lower level players seldom get the Runes that they need, while the more advanced players can't get rid of their excess.

In NetZero the smaller players can jump on the Runes that they need by claiming a large chest. In fact it's common practice to allow the smaller players to jump the gun for the Runes that they need. As subsequent contribution are limited to the value of the largest available chest, the smaller players won't be bumped.

Sorry to hear that, but that only reinforces my view that you've not been in a place where the chains are being run properly.
I COULD easily grab all the best chests on every AW in my FS, but that's not happening.

 

[Katwick]

Sorry to hear that, but that only reinforces my view that you've not been in a place where the chains are being run properly.
I COULD easily grab all the best chests on every AW in my FS, but that's not happening.

You may be using a Wonder Society rather than a simple Swap Thread.

I'd agree that a well managed Wonder Society works pretty well, because everybody is encouraged to jump on sequential AWs, and level them immediately.

 

[Dhurrin]

If you announce your OWN AW when you've accumulated the 2/3rds AW Instants to finish off your OWN AW as soon as all the chests are finished, that recycles the contributor Instants for reuse.

REUSE is the key concept as leveling includes 1/3rd Reward instants. KPs that don't return AW Instants within a day or so will probably just sit there and rot.

WHY would I want to put 1.500 KPs into my own AW and only 500 or so by other players?
That is 1.500 KP lost with no return. If instead I put 500 in 3 different AWs of other players and they return them, my own AW still has those 1.500 Kps in them, but I am very likely getting some extra return in the form of runes and KP instants, so I'm better off. Even if each of those would only net me the smallest chest (unlikely, but ok) it means I would have received 1.500 KPs back AND gotten 3 5KP instants, so even then I come out ahead. And even if I wouldn't get any chests at all, I wouldn't lose anything as the KPs are returned 1:1.

Except that donating to other players helps increasing the room I have before getting techlocked, so if for whatever reason someone wanted to dump a crapload of KPs they could do that. Unlike with quite some players on my map who are techlocked all the time.

As for rotting; no the instants are good indefinitely, so can be used when it is convenient. Yes, my stock of them is increasing week by week, despite the fact that week by week I donate more.

 

[Dhurrin]

You may be using a Wonder Society rather than a simple Swap Thread.

I'd agree that a well managed Wonder Society works pretty well, because everybody is encouraged to jump on sequential AWs, and level them immediately.

Our FS uses threads for 5, 10, 15, 30, 60, 90 and 120 KPs in set amounts. Plus one for making arrangements for larger amounts. And one Wild Rune Swap.
All threads are sent to our own FS and a load of players from a sister FS and some others so refreshing is a bit of a pain. And they need to be refreshed every 7-10 days because by then they all will have had at least 150 uses and are getting long and draggy.
Some players use them a lot, some only rarely and some of our members have opted out of being listed. But all in all I have about 40 people on the list.
Sometimes we have a collision due to the high speed, those usually get solved right away, sometimes it takes a bit longer. Very rarely I will have to step in and really fix things, but that hasn't happened a lot lately.

But we are by no means a Wonder Society. We are a top 5 FS in our world, very active, but not focused on just AWs

 

[Katwick]

Do you have any data regarding the average time that it takes to level an AW, once the Owner posts it? And would I be correct to assume that a level can be listed in multiple chains?

It's not yet clear to me how the smaller players ever get any Runes. How do you avoid bumping them? Is the Owner expected/allowed to contribute to their own AW? Otherwise it would seem that you'd need to keep on contributing to maintain your claim for any of the larger chests.

 

[Iyapo]

Small player here, if I need runes I just ask my fellowship for them. This works in every fellowship swap threads, netzero, wonder society or self fill with shoutouts. I don't have enough kp to take a top chest in wonder society or on swap threads without a little grace from the team. As for netzero and shout outs, if you ask for specific runes team mates will often give you a heads up before they post the wonder. A good team can make any system work for littles.

 

[Silly Bubbles]

I'm not really sure whether Inno would invest even more into KP threads. They've already had to fix a number of problems that were caused by message system overload due to high traffic. I do understand that KP threads are great for FSs that like to distribute KP chests to the ones that have the most KPs and use the swaps the most. It does reward the fellows with high tournament score, parked cities etc the most.

I personally think KP swaps are too much work and I do like to help smaller players to upgrade their AWs faster and get runes as they need it the most.

 

[Dhurrin]

Do you have any data regarding the average time that it takes to level an AW, once the Owner posts it? And would I be correct to assume that a level can be listed in multiple chains?

It's not yet clear to me how the smaller players ever get any Runes. How do you avoid bumping them? Is the Owner expected/allowed to contribute to their own AW? Otherwise it would seem that you'd need to keep on contributing to maintain your claim for any of the larger chests.

Well, we are a FS, so we work together. If smaller players want some runes they can let us know. And our 'smaller players' are already pretty far ahead.
But runes aren't really an issue. As our main FS is a top-tier FS (ranked in the top-5 of Elcysandir) we have just about the strictest requirements for members, amongst which is a 2.000 point minimum in the tourneys, so people gain runes there.

Our 2 sister FSs takes it a bit easier and have more smaller players, so we work with them to gain what they need. It's all about working together.

And it also helps to teach smaller players how to make the most of their investments;
Focus on 1 AW or maybe 2 AWs at a time, alternating between upping them. Most benefits are only kicking in with several levels, so it's probably better to have a few mid-lvl ones than 10 low lvl ones.
Try to avoid investing small amounts in a lot of other AWs, but focus on just a few to gain the runes you really want now.
Message someone, or work with others and invest only in the ones you really want runes for, communicate so we can make it happen.
Focus on the GA! It is small, needs fewer KPs and is THE best space-saving AW there is in the game. But you'd never know it from the poor effects on the lower lvls. However, at high lvls is will outperform multiple magical residences at a footprint of only 3x3.
If you have time, look around on your map; you will find a lot of players with AWs that are almost finished but have open chests, so donate some KPs there.
Work on the tourney as it is a great source of runes (and KPs) if they need help we have several large players who can help by donating goods to do more there and gain more from the tourneys and we have several players who can help them finetune their fighting if they want

 

[Killy-]

That is 1.500 KP lost with no return.

Well, you always have garantued return in net0. But I think there are already threads where one can find all the differences between the systems. They all have the same bonus chests, it is just a matter of how you distribute them between your members and how much work you want to have with your system (even so I don't understand how anyone would end up at swap threads with those 2 criteries).