Military Fixes

[The Unbeliever]

One of the biggest issues I have with the game currently is how god-awful the overall balancing of the military side of the game...
And especially with the upcoming,

Spoiler

Spire of Eternal Misery

, that's soon to be released, I feel that we could really do with another major overhaul & rebalancing of the game's god-awful fighting mechanics.

1. Human Barracks units generally suck royal gak...
Overall, Humans are well, complete crap at fighting. They are plagued by too many of their units being 'specialists' vs. the needed 'generalists' against the enemy units they're meant to counter. (ie: why are Paladins so woeful vs. light infantry?)
On that note, some needed fixes for Human units;
a) Either give Barbarians a second 'Strike Back' attack, OR, let their -def% last for 2 rounds (which is what Elves get)
b) Boost Paladins atk% bonus vs. Light Infantry, OR, give them a sizable def% boost vs. Light Infantry.
ATM these guys are basically just 'worse V.Guards', which leaves Human players massively disadvantaged vs. encounters with lots of enemy Light Infantry. (ie: Humans are forced to wait until half way through fething Orks & Gobbos to get an actual counter unit?! WTF Inno?!)
c) Decrease the damage spread on Mortars.
These guys are the single most useless units in the entire game! Why? Because while they have a huge range, they hit with all the power of a wet noodle.
It is actually a common occurrence to have these guys get wiped out by the units they're supposed to actually be a hard-counter towards!! They can't move, are among the slowest to act, and can't even tickle the enemy before getting their faces beaten in.
Again, this means that Human players are literally *FORCED* to use Orc Strategists (a Ch.8 unit) in order to gain a usable heavy ranged unit...

2. Give the Merc Camp & Training Grounds their own training slots.

Spoiler

In the upcoming Spire of Eternal Misery, we will be fighting with (currently on beta) 3x our basic squad sizes!
However, we are still stuck with just the same 5 slots to train ALL our troops? This is rank BS...
If we are suddenly going to go from using 100's-1000's of troops per week from the tournament to tens of thousands for tournament + spire, then we need to have our troop training capabilities increase as well!

Give the Training Grounds & Merc Camp their own training slots, but for balance sake, perhaps cap it at 3 slots per vs. the standard 5...
At least this way the new upcoming feature will be semi-playable by everyone, instead of just those select dozen or so players who have all Lv25-30 AW's + 2-3 Fire Phoenix.

3. The Sanctuary/Martial Monastary need a massive boost in power!
From iirc, Sorcs & Dragons on, the tech tree forces 3x Squad Size techs per chapter.
However, the overall boost from our military AW's has simply continued to stagnate meaning that our troops overall are getting left in the dirt by the enemy. (in tournament & soon spire especially)
30% max health boost is just cosmetic at this point due to the massive increases in squad sizes. (which hugely effects overall tournament difficulty, while spire is introducing 2 + 3 wave fights!)
As the currently only source of permanent defensive boost in the game, and that it requires months and months worth of kps to achieve, it feels a little bit cheap to get such a paltry bonus.

4. NO MORE TERRAIN SCREWING PLEASE!!
Seriously Inno, your terrain generator is the single worst aspect of the whole fighting system... it should *never* end up that one side gets hosed by terrain so badly that a fight is 1000% 'unplayable'.
It's going to be especially galling once the new feature is released, and instead of losing only a small number of troops to this hellish RNG, we end up losing 1000's of troops at a time. (or 10k-15+ for you end-game players!)

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I still do not get the issues with the Mortar. Sure, it is not great, but I generally do not have the same problems others talk about. I almost never lose an auto-battle fight where I am using 5 Mortar squads. And if I do not like the looks of the enemy, I use 4 Mortar and 1 Cerberus to run interference. Of course, I am only talking about the first 4 stars of a province, since real life almost never gives me the time to try for more, so if the Mortar becomes as bad as people say at that point, I have not experienced it yet. Oh, and when I do lose a fight with them, it is because of the stupid terrain layouts, like you talk about, plus the heavy ranged units cannot attack the square next to them, so if the enemy can corner any heavy ranged squad, they are dead.

I will not say anything about the Spire yet, because they have not even started the Beta testing of the negotiation part of the encounters. So who knows how it will be once that can be done.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Yeah, I wouldn't jump to conclusions and make some radical changes based on a feature that is clearly in (very early) beta.

You complained a lot about Mortars who are indeed not the best unit in the game - perhaps even the worst one (debatable). But you conveniently omitted even mentioning of human Priests, who are definitely one of the best units in the game - perhaps even the best one (also debatable). So it kind of balances out. And yeah, some units are better and some are worse against their dedicated targets. And some better counters are only available later on. We do want to have some incentives to progress, yes?

I am not sure that Sanctuary needs a boost. This AW is so expensive for those small health boosts because these are so powerful. Do you want 100% health boost? So you can walk over 6* provinces with minimal losses? What is it going to accomplish, except devaluing tournament achievements?

And last, but not least - terrain. Yes, terrain can massively screw you over - or it can help you. Terrain impact is not specific to the player, it works just as well for the enemy. And making some fights "unwinnable" - quite possible. Just like in real life, the environment has a dramatic impact on combat situations. Remember the story of 300 Spartans? I bet Persians wanted to complain that it was unfair that terrain screwed them over. And in Elvenar you always have a catering option (unlike in real life).

Now, I am not suggesting that Elvenar's battle system is perfect - it is not. But let's not get a knee-jerk reaction and assume that it needs dramatic changes because it is irreparably broken.

 

[Gath Of Baal]

I would love for INNO to make the battle map bigger so that there is more room to maneuver your units. I would also like for them to add structures that could block line of site and used as a tactical advantage or disadvantage...

More space would make the Mortars a much better unit with their unlimited range.. More space would also make it harder for enemy units to get to you on the first turn, making units like the dogs unable to get to your back line turn 1 or archers being able to move forward a few spaces and unload on you

It would make the fights a little longer, but in my opinion more enjoyable..

The structures do not have to be huge but anything is better then a hill you cant walk over but enemies can still see you and hit you through it

My 2 cents worth

 

[Fayeanne]

It's funny how different people can have such radically different opinions on the units.

I love the Human barracks units. I made my Elven city the negotiation city and my Human city the fighting city for specifically that reason.

Paladin: They don't really need boosts against Light Melee because they have an attack range of 2. This is huge. Take full advantage of it. Paladins never need to suffer reprisals from Light Melee. They can attack over terrain. They can attack over each other. When I'm fighting with my Elven city, my Treants plod slowly chasing after all the enemies that are running rings around them, meanwhile my Paladins just walk up and *whack*.

Priest: The Sorceress is a horrible unit. Their only saving grace is their debuff. The Priest debuff is kind of meh but their attack range is superior. Don't let them get into range of the enemy (well, except Mortar-style enemies, they can't really avoid those).

Mortar: Okay, so Mortars suck. They aren't horribly bad (that attack range is situationally useful) but they do piddling damage and are sitting ducks once the enemies approach. Terrain is a big factor here, and remember you can use other units (such as Paladins) as barriers to help prevent the enemies from approaching the Mortars. But I agree: Orc Strategists are much better. You don't have to wait for Chapter 8 though. Just craft a building from your Magic Academy and let them pile up. I have a city that's been doing that since around Chapter 3 or so.

Terrain: Use it to your advantage. Yes, sometimes it makes victory more or less impossible, but just negotiate/cater in those cases. I find such situations to be relatively rare, and a lot of times the terrain works in your favor.

Granted, I have not reached the later chapters yet so I do not know whether Human barracks units fall off in scale over time. Early chapters though, they're great.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Granted, I have not reached the later chapters yet so I do not know whether Human barracks units fall off in scale over time. Early chapters though, they're great.

Just strictly looking at their stats, and not factoring in anything else, other units do become better at three stars than the barracks troops, mainly because each of the other 10 units is more specialized against one troop type than the barracks units are. For example, the barracks light melee at three stars has a four rating against both types of troops it is good against, while the training grounds version at three stars has a five rating against one of them and the mercenary camp version has a five rating against the other one. And the same for the other four unit types. So in some situations, the non-barracks troops will be better. Of course, several different non-barracks units have other things about them that make them more useful more often than that, such as the high speed and range of the Cerberus. That alone can sometimes make them at one-star as good as the other melee units at two or three-star. I almost never use my Barbarians if I can use my Cerberus.

 

[Risen Malchiah]

3. The Sanctuary/Martial Monastary need a massive boost in power!

As the currently only source of permanent defensive boost in the game, and that it requires months and months worth of kps to achieve, it feels a little bit cheap to get such a paltry bonus.

I agree with this the most. Sanctuary/Monastery is a must-have building for those who prefer to fight, but it takes forever to upgrade for tiny increases. Almost all Wonders' power is determined by a combination of its level + something else (like number of armories, main hall level, provinces explored, etc) while this wonder's health boost is fixed.

The Monastery/Sanctuary's health boost could be based on AW Level + a percentage of Squad Size. This would boost the building's effectiveness while adding an interesting dilemma for players: Increase your squad size to make your troops *MORE* powerful at the expense of increased catering costs, or keep your troops slightly weaker and enjoy reduced catering and easier tourney fights. If the math was to my favor, I'd go back and fill in all my missing squad size upgrades if this actually helped me in some way.

 

[ajqtrz]

How about this: A preview of the terrain before you need to pick your troops? How many times have I picked one type and found the terrain just traps all or most of my troops where they can't be bought to bear. What general ever picked his troops without knowing the battle ground? Yes, you can pick your troops, start the battle, maybe surrender before getting hurt, and do it over, but that's just a waste of time. By letting the player see the battlefield in a small map, perhaps, before choosing the troops, you would do a lot to encourage people to actually fight. OR, maybe the map could come up and you place your troops where you want them to begin (in the last row) and the order you want to move them. You could even "fog" the locations of the ones they face so that you only know the terrain.

Just some ideas to help, I hope.

AJ

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Sanctuary/Monastery is a must-have building for those who prefer to fight, but it takes forever to upgrade for tiny increases. Almost all Wonders' power is determined by a combination of its level + something else (like number of armories, main hall level, provinces explored, etc) while this wonder's health boost is fixed.

Sanctuary/Monastery health boost applies to all types of units and all units in your squad - no matter how big is your SS. And unlike faster production speed, or even increased damage it allows you to win some fights that otherwise won't be possible to win. I'd say that's pretty good. And I didn't even mention the massive culture attached to military benefits.

And you said that it's a must-have building for those who fight, and it's true. This also means that value is there as it is. I am yet to see anyone who fights who doesn't build this AW because it's poor value. As I said before, it is so expensive because it is so valuable. Things like that don't need a boost - it's like saying diamonds are very useful, we should get more of them.

Things that need a boost are those that no one uses because they're such poor value. E.g. things like Crystal Lighthouse or Enar's Embassy, even though even these might be debatable.

 

[Risen Malchiah]

How about this: A preview of the terrain before you need to pick your troops?

Something like this?

Sanctuary/Monastery health boost applies to all types of units and all units in your squad - no matter how big is your SS. And unlike faster production speed, or even increased damage it allows you to win some fights that otherwise won't be possible to win. I'd say that's pretty good. And I didn't even mention the massive culture attached to military benefits.

And you said that it's a must-have building for those who fight, and it's true. This also means that value is there as it is. I am yet to see anyone who fights who doesn't build this AW because it's poor value. As I said before, it is so expensive because it is so valuable. Things like that don't need a boost - it's like saying diamonds are very useful, we should get more of them.

Things that need a boost are those that no one uses because they're such poor value. E.g. things like Crystal Lighthouse or Enar's Embassy, even though even these might be debatable.

I already do consider it great, but I was merely pointing out that the the health boost is one feature that doesn't benefit from any other advances in your city, unlike most other AW powers. Improved health is very difficult to come by these days. Sure, we have the Unleashed Unit troop buff but it is sooo rare now that it's been crowded out by all the other crafting recipes. Having the option to boost the AW at the expense of investing in greater squad upgrades would be an interesting trade-off while also somewhat mitigating the problem of increased squad upgrades.

I completely agree about Enar's. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't been fixed after all this time.

 

[The Unbeliever]

Sanctuary/Monastery health boost applies to all types of units and all units in your squad - no matter how big is your SS. And unlike faster production speed, or even increased damage it allows you to win some fights that otherwise won't be possible to win. I'd say that's pretty good. And I didn't even mention the massive culture attached to military benefits.

And you said that it's a must-have building for those who fight, and it's true. This also means that value is there as it is. I am yet to see anyone who fights who doesn't build this AW because it's poor value. As I said before, it is so expensive because it is so valuable. Things like that don't need a boost - it's like saying diamonds are very useful, we should get more of them.

Things that need a boost are those that no one uses because they're such poor value. E.g. things like Crystal Lighthouse or Enar's Embassy, even though even these might be debatable.

Sanctuary/Monastery is lackluster and needs a sizable boost for the later chapters. (ie: Sorcs and on)
The problem is, from S&D's and on, we're *forced* to research 3 out of the 4 squad size techs in each chapter, yet our AW has only gained 10 total levels between those same 5 chapters.
So it's been badly left in the dust vs. what we're now expected to face.

Now, if it was say, 1 of 2 or even 3 total AW's that would give out a def boost to our troops, then fine, it can stay at mostly stagnant growth.
But it's our one and only permanent source of def boost!
Thus, it should either gain a sizable boost to it's max stats, OR, Inno needs to unlock another 10-15+ levels so that we can at least keep pace with the enemy.

 

[ajqtrz]

@Risen Malchiah Yeah, that would really help. Then if you added the ability to place troops -- wow, what a game changer. I might even become a warrior at that point!

AJ

 

[NightshadeCS]

I suppose load times may be an issue with folks who strictly auto-fight or cater, but a change could be made to simply go straight to the battlefield when you click on the province/tent. You could then see the terrain and the enemies, then choose troops, or click a "cater/negotiate" button. After troop selection, you could have an auto-finish with or without animations.

The load time could be a hard-line non-starter, though.

 

[Gath Of Baal]

Another thing I would like to see added to the combat system is more variety of troops to take into battle... This is fantasy game, why not some monstrous creatures like Giants, Ogres, Dragons, Hydras etc. For balance sake you could make 1 monstrous selection lock out 1 extra selection so they would take up 2 selections.
Also I would like more guest race troop types that reflect guest races, prime example are the Dwarves, squads of Dwarven Warriors, Dwarven Gunners (arquebus) etc.

More flavor to make manual combats more fun.. Combined with bigger maps, structures that block lines of sight, the ability to place your troops on the map in their starting zone, in my opinion would make Manual combats a blast

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Another thing I would like to see added to the combat system is more variety of troops to take into battle... This is fantasy game, why not some monstrous creatures like Giants, Ogres, Dragons, Hydras etc. For balance sake you could make 1 monstrous selection lock out 1 extra selection so they would take up 2 selections.
Also I would like more guest race troop types that reflect guest races, prime example are the Dwarves, squads of Dwarven Warriors, Dwarven Gunners (arquebus) etc.

More flavor to make manual combats more fun.. Combined with bigger maps, structures that block lines of sight, the ability to place your troops on the map in their starting zone, in my opinion would make Manual combats a blast

Considering they need to make things work for both mobile and browser, and mobile is only auto-fight, any upgrades or adjustments to fighting will most likely not be anything purely for the benefit of manual fighting.

 

[Gath Of Baal]

Considering they need to make things work for both mobile and browser, and mobile is only auto-fight, any upgrades or adjustments to fighting will most likely not be anything purely for the benefit of manual fighting.

Oh common you know better then that, those problems will still be here same time next year Inno is all about adding new things not fixing the things that really matter, might as well get something nice added to try and draw our attention away from other things that are not so nice

 

[Risen Malchiah]

Another thing I would like to see added to the combat system is more variety of troops to take into battle... This is fantasy game, why not some monstrous creatures like Giants, Ogres, Dragons, Hydras etc. For balance sake you could make 1 monstrous selection lock out 1 extra selection so they would take up 2 selections.
Also I would like more guest race troop types that reflect guest races, prime example are the Dwarves, squads of Dwarven Warriors, Dwarven Gunners (arquebus) etc.

More flavor to make manual combats more fun.. Combined with bigger maps, structures that block lines of sight, the ability to place your troops on the map in their starting zone, in my opinion would make Manual combats a blast

When I first started this game over 2 years ago, it was fresh on the heels of playing a lot of Heroes of Might & Magic. The fights in that game are very similar to this but waaaay more complex, kind of like what you're describing. So while this was much simpler, I really liked the combat mechanics, just wish there was more to it along the way.

When S&D was announced, I really thought we'd get a dragon-type unit for fighting, and while we got Vallorian Valor, it just wasn't what I was hoping for.

Nowadays, I'm more about going deep into a tournament and that's just not possible with manual fighting without investing a huge amount of time, so I could take it or leave it, but I would certainly enjoy doing more manual fighting if more variety was added.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

I really liked the combat mechanics, just wish there was more to it along the way.

Ii won't be surprised if vast majority of users couldn't care less about manual combat. Sure, there are some enthusiasts (and some are vocal on the forums), but considering they don't have manual combat on mobile at all, this was the case for quite a while and I don't see a lot of pressure coming Inno's way to fix it, I can imagine that Inno may not see manual combat as critical part of Elvenar. As such, I wouldn't expect beefing up that part of the game.

The Spire may change that, or it may not.

 

[Risen Malchiah]

I won't be surprised if vast majority of users couldn't care less about manual combat. Sure, there are some enthusiasts...

Yes, I consider myself an enthusiast for manual combat and indeed this combat style was one of the draws for me when I started playing Elvenar. I suspect I'm in the minority in that regard. But, my priorities have shifted over time and I tend to autofight the vast majority of the time now simply due to time constraints and sheer boredom when attempting to do 20 or more provinces for 5-6 rounds in 3 cities. Though I still occasionally fight manually when I have extra free time (particularly on the world map where losses can really add up), so having something new to play with would be nice.

 

[DeletedUser20951]

Heroes of Might & Magic

Oh yes, the many years I have spent playing the various titles in this series (until Ubisoft took over and ruined it, that is) made me, at first, excited about the exact same battle system being present in Elvenar, and then utterly frustrated by its limitations in comparison.