Possibilities for FA improvement

[crackie]

Prizes aside for the moment, because we know that won't change until the structure of the FA itself is changed(more than likely), if we keep the badge requirement, but change the physical layout of the game what do you think the options are?
In other words, should there be more maps for the higher level achievers? Less maps for casual players?
I am still of the opinion that sorting into leagues by score and adjusting the map accordingly would be a start.

I am even open to a different format altogether. Perhaps a storming the castle sort of something or another. I don't believe the spire qualifies as that, honestly.

Perhaps a true style quest with the process being searching for items in other cities.

You have three paths
Casual players can just work on one path per map

I am not against changes to FA btw, just confused by the problem some of the suggestions are trying to solve. I don’t think leagues and divisions change anything if the problem it’s solving is casual players suddenly want to compete. You’ll get the same results if the root of it is casual players don’t want to do more, but somehow want the game to adjust so they can rank higher. Remember, a chap 3 player can do a lot of tourney and full Spire too if manned by a capable and competitive player. So even if you sort by size, the casual player will still get crushed by competitive players! Why is nobody asking why casual players suddenly want to compete? The game allows them to play at their pace and current FA format allows them to get the key rewards (artifacts) by doing one path each map, as @mucksterme and others have said.

I think one of the appeals of the game is it does allow all sorts of playing styles to exist. The current format doesn’t penalized for minimal effort. You still get the artifacts, which is what most people are after, and all you miss out on are perks, timers, and mediocre building. If you want those extras, buckle up and get ready to 10x your effort. If they aren’t worth the effort, let it go. Tourney and Overall Rank lobs everyone together too, no matter size, age, and shape. If they aren’t your thing, you can ignore them too! Imagine if those that do 300 in tourney asks to change the format so they compete with only other 300 tourney players. Then it’s about what? Who finished the same number of provinces/checkpoints first? Or someone unwilling to spend on premium expansions and want to compete for overall ranking. It still sounds like Goldilock wants to do just the right amount of effort that suits them, but expects the game to change to put them in contention for better rankings and consolation prizes. Eh?

 

[Dew Spinner]

I am not against changes to FA btw, just confused by the problem some of the suggestions are trying to solve. I don’t think leagues and divisions change anything if the problem it’s solving is casual players suddenly want to compete. You’ll get the same results if the root of it is casual players don’t want to do more, but somehow want the game to adjust so they can rank higher. Remember, a chap 3 player can do a lot of tourney and full Spire too if manned by a capable and competitive player. So even if you sort by size, the casual player will still get crushed by competitive players! Why is nobody asking why casual players suddenly want to compete? The game allows them to play at their pace and current FA format allows them to get the key rewards (artifacts) by doing one path each map, as @mucksterme and others have said.

I think one of the appeals of the game is it does allow all sorts of playing styles to exist. The current format doesn’t penalized for minimal effort. You still get the artifacts, which is what most people are after, and all you miss out on are perks, timers, and mediocre building. If you want those extras, buckle up and get ready to 10x your effort. If they aren’t worth the effort, let it go. Tourney and Overall Rank lobs everyone together too, no matter size, age, and shape. If they aren’t your thing, you can ignore them too! Imagine if those that do 300 in tourney asks to change the format so they compete with only other 300 tourney players. Then it’s about what? Who finished the same number of provinces/checkpoints first? Or someone unwilling to spend on premium expansions and want to compete for overall ranking. It still sounds like Goldilock wants to do just the right amount of effort that suits them, but expects the game to change to put them in contention for better rankings and consolation prizes. Eh?

I think one of the problems is FSs state in their overview that FA is optional but there are always a few that want to go all out and the Player went to that FS because the overview said optional but now they are being peer pressured to do more. I think AMs know that if they don't put optional in the overview they will have a hard time recruiting but they still want to compete in FA. So, it is a case of false advertising and mismatched play styles. Casual players are called casual players for a reason, they are not into competing. A FS has to decide what they want to be and advertise in the Overview accordingly, not be misleading in order to have an easier time recruiting. I was in a FS once that when the FA discussion started the vast majority would decide to take it easy but there was this one Mage that would always, without fail, barge in and overrule everyone else and say we were going all in and all that did was breed resentment in a lot of ways And that FS said FA was optional in their Overview.

 

[crackie]

I think one of the problems is FSs state in their overview that FA is optional but there are always a few that want to go all out and the Player went to that FS because the overview said optional but now they are being peer pressured to do more. I think AMs know that if they don't put optional in the overview they will have a hard time recruiting but they still want to compete in FA. So, it is a case of false advertising and mismatched play styles. Casual players are called casual players for a reason, they are not into competing. A FS has to decide what they want to be and advertise in the Overview accordingly, not be misleading in order to have an easier time recruiting. I was in a FS once that when the FA discussion started the vast majority would decide to take it easy but there was this one Mage that would always, without fail, barge in and overrule everyone else and say we were going all in and all that did was breed resentment in a lot of ways And that FS said FA was optional in their Overview.

These can all be true, but then it's a management/leadership issue and not a game issue. It's for the FS to sort out.

 

[Sodbury]

The effort vs. reward curve is broken. It is reasonably easy to complete the three maps and acquire the three chests. The effort required for further reward, be it prizes or prestige, is Herculean. Doubling or tripling the minimum effort required to get those chests might advance a fellowship from 160th place to 105th. If you're dedicated, you might break into the ranks which grant paltry prizes. If you have a fellowship that is not die hard but you'd like to see how far you can get, you quickly learn that there is no point to doing more than the minimum. There is no mid-range inducement to try and try again, improving a bit more with each adventure, as there is no middle ground between acquiring the three chests and placing in the top rankings.

Besides that, the narrative is disastrous. Produce all you can and then chuck it in a hole. Elvenar is escapism. The Pit is one of two aspects that shatter the enjoyable illusion and reveal a discouraging truth.

 

[mucksterme]

Produce all you can and then chuck it in a hole.

No
You produce goods and get badges. You play the tourny and spire and get badges. You craft items and get badges. etc
You chuck the badges in a hole but you still have the goods and other benefits you received while producing badges.

And has been said 11,384 times in various forms here.
If you hate the pit, don't play it.

 

[Dew Spinner]

These can all be true, but then it's a management/leadership issue and not a game issue. It's for the FS to sort out.

Yes, I agree but there are too many AMs that lack any leadership skills which causes the recruitment issue to begin with. Everyone wants the title of AM but many don't want to do the actual work involved in being an AM and that is where the problems start. A lot of players want to be the boss of a FS but then the time to recruit doesn't seem worth it to them, so they start to sweeten the FS Overview to draw more applicants. So, the Overview becomes misleading and useless as a guide for Players to find a FS that suits their play style.

 

[Genefer]

Contrast that with a player in chapter 15 who cannot produce Statues and Necklaces without building a shanty town.

By shanty town you are referring to teleporting to make room for level 1 factories and/or workshops? Opposed to alter accounts used to mass produce badges to supplement the small or low adventure participant Fellowships?


I squeeze in the levels 1s I can fit, because there is no way I would ever set my daily factories for a 1- or 2-day production (if it were an option) or Workshops for 3-, 9-, or 24-hour productions. To do so would negatively impact my ability to participate in the Spire & Tournaments, which is my priority, and it would also decrease the number of bracelets, witch hat, marbles, tiaras, wonder, staffs, vapor, and ghost badges I could acquire for the adventure.


I think crackie has it correct - Fellowships composed of members that love the Tournaments & Spire have the resources available to achieve a high rank in the Adventures.


Yes, members store buildings to add the level 1s, but beyond that all the badges are a part of regular game play - for these players.


I think Adventure participation is low for most Fellowships, because most fellowships are not composed of 25 intense active members. I have observed in the Fellowships I have been a member - those that expect 10 chests & a gold trophies attract intensely active players that play well with others, while Fellowships with "optional" participation in the spire & Tournaments attract members who play casually. A casual player cannot acquire the resources needed to churn out badges.


A Fellowship composed of casual players will not be able to compete with Fellowships with highly active members - even if they wanted to give it a go. Even if they teleport half their city to build level 1 buildings, they will not have the resources to acquire the other badges.


A Casual Player does not put much effort in the Spire or Tournament - if any. The Tournament & Spire provide resources that increase opportunity to those that mine them weekly. These resources accumulate as the weeks pass, and by the time an Adventure begins the player/s have a stockpile of Coin & Supply Rain Falls, Time Boost Spells, Enchantments, Catalysts, Spell Fragments, Runes, kp, diamonds....


Casual players approach events casually also, so are less likely to have Fully Evolved Chapter Level Pets, Evolving Buildings, Building Sets.... all of these contribute to badge production.


A Casual Play is unlikely to have a fully upgraded Magic Academy - severely limiting the number of Enchantments, Catalysts, & Vapor.


Casual players are exactly that - and I do not think there is anything that will change the way they play - even if the effort will earn a prize of comparable value.


On the other hand, a Fellowship of basically casual players can complete a single path of all 3 stages - they won't rank in the top 25 .... but they will not miss out on anything of value. Honestly, if my Fellowship ranked high enough to acquire a building - I would disenchant it for a few hundred Spell Fragments, because the value would be a net loss to my city.


Really, I don't understand why anyone cares about Rank for any aspect of the game. It's fun to rank high in the Tournament, but the rank does not drive my tournament play. I don't add buildings simply to increase my score for better rank among players.


I know there are people that live for the Rank score..... and that love the Adventures...

 

[Myne]

There is no mid-range inducement to try and try again, improving a bit more with each adventure, as there is no middle ground between acquiring the three chests and placing in the top rankings.

I suppose this is the group that need the changes. The casual fellowships are fine, they do as well as they wish and are satisfied. The ones who consistently place in the top 20 seem to never complain. Do we ignore this frustration? I think that this is the group that we hear from all the time. They struggle to do better, like their fellowships and are truly doing the best they can. Might there be a tweak that can be applied to allow those folks to have a sense of accomplishment?

 

[Myne]

By shanty town you are referring to teleporting to make room for level 1 factories and/or workshops? Opposed to alter accounts used to mass produce badges to supplement the small or low adventure participant Fellowships?

yes

 

[Myne]

Really, I don't understand why anyone cares about Rank for any aspect of the game.

There is a good section of players who enjoy the competitive aspect for it's own sake. They may not judge themselves against the whole, but against themselves to prove to themselves that they can show improvement as they go.

 

[Genefer]

The Pit is one of two aspects that shatter the enjoyable illusion and reveal a discouraging truth.

The Pit is the only part of the Adventure I like, and it surprises me so many players don't like the pit, yet it is during the Pit that a Fellowship Adventure becomes interactive - all the sudden members that have been silent for days are in the heat of the pit.

 

[Myne]

The Pit is the only part of the Adventure I like, and it surprises me so many players don't like the pit, yet it is during the Pit that a Fellowship Adventure becomes interactive - all the sudden members that have been silent for days are in the heat of the pit.

I am slowly becoming more appreciative of it.

 

[Genefer]

There is a good section of players who enjoy the competitive aspect for it's own sake. They may not judge themselves against the whole, but against themselves to prove to themselves that they can show improvement as they go.

Yes, I like to set personal goals and exceed them too

 

[Dew Spinner]

I suppose this is the group that need the changes. The casual fellowships are fine, they do as well as they wish and are satisfied. The ones who consistently place in the top 20 seem to never complain. Do we ignore this frustration? I think that this is the group that we hear from all the time. They struggle to do better, like their fellowships and are truly doing the best they can. Might there be a tweak that can be applied to allow those folks to have a sense of accomplishment?

Yes, they can have their AM recruit for FA players instead of using the term "FA Optional" as a recruiting tool when that isn't their mindset. Take a stroll through a bunch of FS Overviews and count how many don't say "FA Optional". I would bet a lot of the top 20 FA FSs on your World have "FA optional" in their FS Overview. FSs can't find like minded players when their Overview is an attempt at easy recruiting but they want higher performance. I have also been in FSs where FA was a requirement but the AM didn't want to have to spend time recruiting, so slackers were't dealt with, while others were wrecking their cities and inventories, Another case of a bunch of resentment all the way around. Inno likes to say the FA is a "team building" experience but for most it is the exact opposite and because there are sooooo many AMs that just want the title and not the work this will never change.

 

[Genefer]

Might there be a tweak that can be applied to allow those folks to have a sense of accomplishment?

Yes, the Adventure requirements could scale to Fellowship size, because no one will ever be excited to participate in an activity that feels unattainable. The sense of accomplishment comes from completing the stages.

I don't know how Rank would be calculated though

 

[Sodbury]

The Pit is the only part of the Adventure I like, and it surprises me so many players don't like the pit, yet it is during the Pit that a Fellowship Adventure becomes interactive - all the sudden members that have been silent for days are in the heat of the pit.

It's excellent that you enjoy it. I don't have a problem with the competitive or open-ended aspects of it. If it we fulfilled similar requirements to build a temporary edifice, or support an army, or supply an expedition, that would be great. Dumping the results of your efforts into a hole is too strong a metaphor for me.

If you hate the pit, don't play it.

Quips such as this could be used to dismiss any frustration or criticism ever expressed here. The thread is about possibly improving an aspect of Elvenar. If we're not free to describe the things we'd like to see changed, it may not be very productive.

edit:
Expanding a bit on my response to Genefer: If the badges earned became armies in a single boss battle fought by the archmage, or became materials that she could use to convince her way past a similar event, I would be super enthusiastic about producing them. Even if we weren't successful, it would be thrilling. I'd make badges for my archmage all day, mostly because the giving aspect would make each of us happy. It's the thin "toss stuff into a hole" story that I find discouraging. Producing together is enjoyable.

 

[Iyapo]

The ones who consistently place in the top 20 seem to never complain.

The last two FAs the most strident complaints(on the forum) came from players in fellowships that placed in the top ten(tens of thousands of points below #1).


How do you fix that?

 

[ThunderingRaymy]

The last two FAs the most strident complaints(on the forum) came from players in fellowships that placed in the top ten(tens of thousands of points below #1).

Oh? That's interesting. I guess someone did a little checking (which shouldn't be hard to do if you're so inclined).

I was about to suggest that casual players probably don't complain so there's no sense in catering to them or talking about motivating them. But the middling ranked FS might complain because they can't make any real progress even though they feel they're trying. That is most likely because of the aforementioned mix of casuals and aggressive players in the same FS which balances out to be middling rank.

Having a system akin to sports leagues might give an opportunity for those who try hard but don't have the best FS mix to still get some kind of recognition if that is desired. Since the current set up doesn't really give much in the way of game rewards for ranking, that's not the carrot they're seeking.

I think leagues can be implemented in parallel to the current system just as they were in Events but use a different measurement system to allow for other ways of attaining the top spot. That way it's not just another arena for top points to get top rewards or rank. There must be something of value other than who can amass and spend the most badges but I don't have any tricks up my sleeve. I'm clueless.

Even if leagues could help middling FS's feel they had a fair playing field, it doesn't address the issue Iyapo pointed out. If it really is players from the top ten who are frustrated at not having any avenue to challenge the top 1 or 2 FS's because the top players are out of everyone's league, I can actually see the point in that complaint. Ideally, the top 10 or 20 FS's should be of similar capability so the competition is closer and the intensity of the fight to the top is more enjoyable for those types. I happen to be that type, so not judging.

Sports leagues have historically put brakes on extraordinary play to allow more competitive play. We are talking about play, not work. Fun, not drudgery. For those who excel, it's not more fun to trounce the competition every time, any more than it is to never win. Also, psychologically, the weaker won't play against the strong if they can't win around 20% of the time. I think the chronic winners still want others to play to give meaning to their win and would happily throttle back (under new rules so everyone must comply) just to prove they can still win. But at least the runners up can try for that 1 in 5 wins.

In that light, I advocate for some kind of limits on total individual badge amounts (or something like that) so the super-players have to compete in the same point range as the runners up. I think it would make the pit a crazy melee fight until the end of the FA. Maybe reducing the time frame might be advisable so we don't all have heart attacks.

Ultimately, I hope to prevent the degeneration of the spirit of game play so please pick apart my ideas... at your peril.

P.S. - The FS cooperation and individual attendance to the game would be a larger factor in getting top spot, not just making loads of badges.

 

[mucksterme]

Quips such as this could be used to dismiss any frustration or criticism ever expressed here.

That wasn't a quip and I find it offensive that you try to discount my comment that way.
It is no different than telling casual players to just do one path and ignore the other two. But maybe you find that hilarious.

On the subject of FS objectives
This is how ours is worded

"Fellowship Adventures: we are competitive and we love it! Participation is voluntary, but enthusiasm for playing FA is considered a big plus When participating, following the FA-plan is required. When not participating, please inform the mage team so we know not to hold out for you to add a badge."

We don't force anyone to participate. We don't criticize people for not doing enough.
But obviously we look for people who like the FA.

 

[Genefer]

Expanding a bit on my response to Genefer: If the badges earned became armies in a single boss battle fought by the archmage, or became materials that she could use to convince her way past a similar event, I would be super enthusiastic about producing them. Even if we weren't successful, it would be thrilling. I'd make badges for my archmage all day, mostly because the giving aspect would make each of us happy. It's the thin "toss stuff into a hole" story that I find discouraging. Producing together is enjoyable.

That would be great!

Let me clarify myself - being a part of the Fellowship requires I participate in the FA, simply because that is what the team wants to do. Personally, I find the adventures to be a lot of effort for very little and wish I wasn't such a team player and could just ignore them. However, I view the entire map as a hole to toss badges in for next to nothing, but the pit seems to excite players, even those that do not like the pit.

Maybe because the pit signals the adventure is nearing the end and the race is on ..... so the level of group interaction increases. or because it is extremely boring to wait for 60+ BS, 70+ coins and brews.... to be filled - but the pit moves so fast you have to communicate constantly.

In other words, the pit is more conducive to Fellowship interaction than the stages, but I could do without both.