Referral System

[OIM20]

Yes, I understand what the thread is about. I also was trying to contribute to the conversation.

You said you wanted a structure to categorize the fellowships. I'm saying not all FS fit within the structure you devised. You respond by telling me basically, "Shut up." Maybe I'm reading what you said wrong, but that's how it's come across to me.

What I'm trying to express to you - while you're insisting that we're hung up on "where we are" is that the categories you're establishing aren't one-size-fits-all. And if we're supposed to categorize our fellowships into these four tiers, then how can we not focus on where we are and what we're doing?

Basically, you seem to want a thread that allows for two things:

• where an FS says, "Hey, I've got this person who sounds right for your group..."
• where fellowship recruiters post and say, "Hey, here's what my FS does, and what we're looking for in new members"

You can't have the 2nd one without "getting hung up" on where your FS is.

So if you don't want everyone focusing on where they are as an FS, don't establish tiers in your thread. If you want a basic tier system, you need to allow for the discussion of where different fellowships are and how they do or don't fit in to your categories. Otherwise, people will use their own definitions of "active" and "top tier". If you're going to use the tier description system, you need to have established parameters. Without discussion about where people are, you're never going to get parameters that will work adequately for what you're trying to establish, and you could end up with a lot of FS that are nearly exactly the same seeking nearly the exact same characteristics among their players/members.

I'm offering you feedback so you can "tweak" your idea, and you're shutting me down, basically telling me to butt out. Cool. Consider me done with this conversation.

 

[Myne]

You said you wanted a structure to categorize the fellowships. I'm saying not all FS fit within the structure you devised. You respond by telling me basically, "Shut up." Maybe I'm reading what you said wrong, but that's how it's come across to me.

Nope never said that.

What I'm trying to express to you - while you're insisting that we're hung up on "where we are" is that the categories you're establishing aren't one-size-fits-all. And if we're supposed to categorize our fellowships into these four tiers, then how can we not focus on where we are and what we're doing?

I agree they are not one size fits all. What is being asked for is input. The only input you gave is that you could not use the system because you didn't fit perfectly into it. So suggest some changes. So suggest something else, and not just the sticking with the same thing we have now that the vast majority of us agree is woefully inadequate.

If you want a basic tier system, you need to allow for the discussion of where different fellowships are and how they do or don't fit in to your categories. Otherwise, people will use their own definitions of "active" and "top tier". If you're going to use the tier description system, you need to have established parameters.

THAT is exactly what we are asking for and trying to establish. Talk about perceptions....you came in and just arbitrarily shut it down like it wasn't even worth a discussion....come on.

I'm offering you feedback so you can "tweak" your idea, and you're shutting me down, basically telling me to butt out. Cool. Consider me done with this conversation.

You offered feedback but nothing positive or anything to add to the suggestion box. Grumpy much? I never said for you to butt out. I asked for ideas.

 

[Myne]

One fellowship I’m in is a combo of casual (plays less than 3x/day), active (chapter 5+), competitive (silver+ in Spire), and top level (14+ chests).
TBH, it’s a top 10 fellowship and I’m pretty sure we have people who play 1x/day, maybe 2x/day. How would you categorize that?

possibly combo active and combo casual??

 

[Myne]

Maybe we would be better served by asking AMs what they look at when a player applies for their fellowship?

 

[Darielle]

Maybe we would be better served by asking AMs what they look at when a player applies for their fellowship?

Good idea.

Any AMs or recruitment mages around to answer that question? What do you do when someone applies? Do you go to Elven stats to look them up? Do you rely on messaging with the player? Do you take anyone without vetting, in order to build your fellowship numbers? Maybe this would help to formulate the plan forward on this.

 

[Kadhrin]

possibly combo active and combo casual??

What I was really trying to get at here was the 3x/day being an implied minimum for anything except the lowest tier means that many, many players will think they are being excluded from all but that lowest tier.
I'd be quite happy to get people who check in twice a day.

When someone applies:
Their city is my first stop. I take a look around, see what chapter they're in, look at their city layout.
Elvenstats is my second stop. I look for a point graph that shows an active city. I look at their individual tourney participation, too.
If there aren't any red flags, I take the next step and send a message.

 

[MichaelMichael]

The most common situation I run into is a low-level player applying to my own high-level fellowship (mostly silver in the Spire, but aspiring to more). I instituted a really minimal minimum score requirement 10,000 points with a hard 1,000 point per week Tourney minimum. It allows me to deny a new-be without working too hard. That said I would accept a player below 10,000 if they demonstrated that 1,000 per week is something they can demonstrate and commit to do.

That said, it is hard to direct a new-be to an appropriate low-level active fellowship so I try to research for an appropriate opportunity. That takes time, but I hope it build the community. Frankly if there was a list of just such fellowships, that would help me more than anything else. For my own fellowship, I find it might take a few weeks but I can almost always fill a slot over time. I had a period recently when I had 4 openings, which took 4 weeks but 2 is more common. Middle level growing fellowships are far harder to build. I did it for mine with a couple small mergers than raised performance from 4 chests to 7. Seven to ten chest is also hard but not nearly as difficult. It just takes time. Frankly when I don't have the shingle out by posting "Recruiting" in the title, I get very few requests so I am not sure that this thread has a compelling reason for being.

 

[Darielle]

What I was really trying to get at here was the 3x/day being an implied minimum for anything except the lowest tier means that many, many players will think they are being excluded from all but that lowest tier.
I'd be quite happy to get people who check in twice a day.

When someone applies:
Their city is my first stop. I take a look around, see what chapter they're in, look at their city layout.
Elvenstats is my second stop. I look for a point graph that shows an active city. I look at their individual tourney participation, too.
If there aren't any red flags, I take the next step and send a message.

I do see your point. Yes, there are many high level players that can't get in more than once or twice a day.

 

[Myne]

That said, it is hard to direct a new-be to an appropriate low-level active fellowship so I try to research for an appropriate opportunity. That takes time, but I hope it build the community. Frankly if there was a list of just such fellowships, that would help me more than anything else. For my own fellowship, I find it might take a few weeks but I can almost always fill a slot over time. I had a period recently when I had 4 openings, which took 4 weeks but 2 is more common. Middle level growing fellowships are far harder to build. I did it for mine with a couple small mergers than raised performance from 4 chests to 7. Seven to ten chest is also hard but not nearly as difficult. It just takes time. Frankly when I don't have the shingle out by posting "Recruiting" in the title, I get very few requests so I am not sure that this thread has a compelling reason for being.

I guess that's another idea..a listing of fellowships only. But that leaves a hole in knowledge for trying to refer people.
Newbies have a tendency to search (perhaps their reach exceeds their grasp) for middling or higher level FS. When first starting a game who isn't upbeat and optimistic? Realizing what the game entails (patience) can be a buzzkill for some so they abandon their efforts.
Thank you for the info.

 

[crackie]

I enjoy a good Rube Goldberg device as much as the next person, but are we over-thinking and over-complicating this? If you have an extra person, why not ask their permission to find them a new home if they want, and then post in the Game Worlds subforum for them to find them a new home? That infrastructure is already in place and heavens knows it needs more new blood of players looking for a FS than fellowships looking for players. I've found new homes for 3 players this way and I wasn't even particularly good at it. Got their boosts and chapter deets all wrong and people still took them in! Heck, I even got @Henroo a player for his FS and we don't even see eye-to-eye on the polarizing figure that is Buddy.

 

[MichaelMichael]

It would be helpful if fellowships list showed, not just the number of players, but the number of ACTIVE Players. Active would mean played (e.g signed into) Elvenar; recent meaning 7 days but 14 or 30 days also would work. Also a radio button/game setting to EXCLUDE inactive fellowships (and players) from listings would also be helpful.

 

[Blue-Iris]

SUGGESTION: Perhaps a new folder could be set up under the forum Game World section where AM's could do exactly that. A general folder title for mages and archmages where they could also share other information in addition to posting for referrals.

 

[Myne]

It would be helpful if fellowships list showed, not just the number of players, but the number of ACTIVE Players. Active would mean played (e.g signed into) Elvenar; recent meaning 7 days but 14 or 30 days also would work. Also a radio button/game setting to EXCLUDE inactive fellowships (and players) from listings would also be helpful.

Elvenstats is the go-to website for all of that information. Archmages would need to be far more proactive in their fellowships to keep their fellowships current in Elvenstats. They would also need to figure out how to use it for info on other players out of their fellowship for recruiting. Casual fellowships are poor at this because they only want to play and many times don't even know 75% of their fellowships aren't playing. Even worse, you wouldn't believe how many ARCHMAGES have stopped playing and left their fellowships hanging. (Can you say recruit?)

I like the idea of a button for exclusion, BUT the thing about that is it would require (I think) two way linking of Elvenstats with OR some other form of sorting code to be added. That may be a hard sell to developers.

@Blue-Iris If you go back and read the whole thread, that was Darielle's Idea, that we have a specific place for archmages to post the specifics of their needs with a requirement to remove the posts as their positions are filled. Helya even said it could be done. I think where we are stuck is in defining of the types of players so the archmages can better target who they are looking for.

 

[Darielle]

SUGGESTION: Perhaps a new folder could be set up under the forum Game World section where AM's could do exactly that. A general folder title for mages and archmages where they could also share other information in addition to posting for referrals.

I like that idea. A recruitment folder, or some such.

 

[Blue-Iris]

Any AMs or recruitment mages around to answer that question? What do you do when someone applies? Do you go to Elven stats to look them up? Do you rely on messaging with the player? Do you take anyone without vetting, in order to build your fellowship numbers? Maybe this would help to formulate the plan forward on this.

Absolutely check them out on Elvenstats. I'm a recruitment mage in one of my cities, and I look for players in higher chapters with good tourney averages.

 

[MichaelMichael]

Elvenstats is the go-to website for all of that information.

Absolutely, I and most effective ArchMages use that site, but it is very time consuming to lookup one fellowship at a time.

I like the idea of a button for exclusion, BUT the thing about that is it would require (I think) two way linking of Elvenstats with OR some other form of sorting code to be added. That may be a hard sell to developers.

It should not be although there should never be a link from a third-party program to Elvenar. Your business and game should not be dependent on a third party. If it is worth having within Elvenar, Inno will need to develop the capability. A capability that is simply a one-week-old database for comparison - that is a truly trivial amount of work.

One very important business goal is to increase retention of players, particularly newbees. A good way to do that is to make the game easy for players to join into active fellowships. This will increase gameplay, retention and ultimately income. I find that new players, myself included, are far more likely to buy diamonds in the first 6 months or so of beginning play. Keeping more newbees should be at the top of a good business plan. However, I defer to your greater experience with the behavior of Inno system architects. Developers are the hands of Inno. I am more interested in getting architects, the heads, as their goal setting requires business savvy. I have ZERO experience with either of these two stakeholders, so I will defer to others with such experience.

 

[Myne]

Absolutely, I and most effective ArchMages use that site, but it is very time consuming to lookup one fellowship at a time.

It should not be although there should never be a link from a third-party program to Elvenar. Your business and game should not be dependent on a third party. If it is worth having within Elvenar, Inno will need to develop the capability. A capability that is simply a one-week-old database for comparison - that is a truly trivial amount of work.

One very important business goal is to increase retention of players, particularly newbees. A good way to do that is to make the game easy for players to join into active fellowships. This will increase gameplay, retention and ultimately income. I find that new players, myself included, are far more likely to buy diamonds in the first 6 months or so of beginning play. Keeping more newbees should be at the top of a good business plan. However, I defer to your greater experience with the behavior of Inno system architects. Developers are the hands of Inno. I am more interested in getting architects, the heads, as their goal setting requires business savvy. I have ZERO experience with either of these two stakeholders, so I will defer to others with such experience.

Elvenstats IS very time intense when using it as a recruiting tool. BUT that info is nowhere else at present. I totally agree with you that it would VASTLY help newbies to be able to find a GOOD fellowship that will fit their needs.

 

[Myne]

Absolutely check them out on Elvenstats. I'm a recruitment mage in one of my cities, and I look for players in higher chapters with good tourney averages.

Chapter level isn't super important to me. What's more important to me and my fellowship is that they are ACTIVE and willing to ask for help and be guided, AND willing to interact with people to learn the game.

 

[Myne]

I am going to circle back around and ask that we nail down the definitions of a casual player, active player, and perhaps a player we call ambitious?
Here is my definition:
Casual--logs in 2 to 3 times a week and possibly participates in tourney and spire.
Active--logs in at least once a day and participates in tourney and possibly spire.
Ambitious--logs in throughout the day and participates in tourney and spire every week to the best of their ability. (which can be judged by Elvenstats data).

These are broad definitions that imho are the best way to sort players. I welcome opinions on them. They do not name chapters as that may be too narrowing for most fellowships. If a fellowship has chapter limitations, they would need to state them.
Input and opinions welcome.