So What Does an Archmage do NOW?

[Darielle]

In the past, I always offered fellowship anniversary prizes, games, quizzes, and challenges to keep the fellowship fun. The prizes were always KP, since that's basically the only prize an archmage or mages can give a player without the player having to go out of their way to claim something.

Now that Inno has basically DESTROYED an AM's ability to give prizes, since so many wonders are filled and they can't upgrade, what does anyone suggest? Forget gifts entirely? Is there any other fun activity that we can do?

I've thought of offering to accept a zero star trade as a gift, but then the player has to put up the trade, and sometimes they just feel funny doing so ... they're afraid their neighbors will think they are gougers. I obviously can't put up a good three star trade for them because it's likely they won't grab it in time, even with advance warning ... their computer could hiccup or the older ones just aren't fast enough.

So is there anything we can do to keep our fellowships fun now that Inno has thrown a wet blanket on all the activities?

Let's think up some alternates, please ... I'm out of ideas.

(By the way, I've stepped down as AM, but I'm asking for the group anyway.)

 

[Myne]

I was thinking about the gifts issue the other day and became so frustrated.

In the past, I always offered fellowship anniversary prizes, games, quizzes, and challenges to keep the fellowship fun. The prizes were always KP, since that's basically the only prize an archmage or mages can give a player without the player having to go out of their way to claim something.

Now that Inno has basically DESTROYED an AM's ability to give prizes, since so many wonders are filled and they can't upgrade, what does anyone suggest? Forget gifts entirely? Is there any other fun activity that we can do?

I've thought of offering to accept a zero star trade as a gift, but then the player has to put up the trade, and sometimes they just feel funny doing so ... they're afraid their neighbors will think they are gougers. I obviously can't put up a good three star trade for them because it's likely they won't grab it in time, even with advance warning ... their computer could hiccup or the older ones just aren't fast enough.

So is there anything we can do to keep our fellowships fun now that Inno has thrown a wet blanket on all the activities?

Let's think up some alternates, please ... I'm out of ideas.

(By the way, I've stepped down as AM, but I'm asking for the group anyway.)

 

[Silver Lady]

Sorry, I’ve got nothing and in the same boat. It’s very very very frustrating. Come on Inno give us a way to pass on to FS members some things other than KPs to AWs and goods.

 

[Pheryll]

Here are four perk ideas I placed in the suggestions thread on discord, I realize that none of them give the AM a direct way to reward fellowship members, but similar ideas can be used.

Perk Idea- Spell Fragment Sharing
With this new perk every visit to fellowship member that has recently visited you gives them 1 spell fragment per level of this perk in addition to the supplies.

Perk Idea: Combined Adventuring
With this new perk every time a map is completed in fellowship adventures, the players that contributed to the map each receive 1 combining catalyst per perk level in addition to the regular map rewards.

Perk Idea: Extended Trade Routes
With this new perk each fellowship member can, in addition to trading with each other, be able to accept standard good trades from neighbors of any other fellowship member up to 1 + perk level number of hexes away from their city (the trade fee may apply).

Perk Idea: Royal Renovation
Every 15 - perk level polishes from fellowship members to an event building not at current chapter will reduce the royal restorations needed to upgrade that building to the next chapter by one.

 

[Myne]

Here are four perk ideas I placed in the suggestions thread on discord, I realize that none of them give the AM a direct way to reward fellowship members, but similar ideas can be used.

Perk Idea- Spell Fragment Sharing
With this new perk every visit to fellowship member that has recently visited you gives them 1 spell fragment per level of this perk in addition to the supplies.

Perk Idea: Combined Adventuring
With this new perk every time a map is completed in fellowship adventures, the players that contributed to the map each receive 1 combining catalyst per perk level in addition to the regular map rewards.

Perk Idea: Extended Trade Routes
With this new perk each fellowship member can, in addition to trading with each other, be able to accept standard good trades from neighbors of any other fellowship member up to 1 + perk level number of hexes away from their city (the trade fee may apply).

Perk Idea: Royal Renovation
Every 15 - perk level polishes from fellowship members to an event building not at current chapter will reduce the royal restorations needed to upgrade that building to the next chapter by one.

Excellent ideas. Thanks for posting them on the dreaded site.
I would really like to see archmages be able to gift items once a week. One way to boost morale and keep folks working hard to succeed.

 

[Darielle]

Thanks for all the responses, everyone. I guess we're all in the same boat ... no way for an archmage to reward their members. KP used to be so loved by all of the members ... they would play my Freaky Friday challenges and lots of other things. Now, it's impossible to get most people to engage. Responses have dropped from 10 to 2, and those two are only doing it to make me feel better, not because they want the kp.

What Inno needs to learn to do is to actually ask members about all the aspects of play that they don't seem to know about or understand, and then find a way to alleviate problems before they cause them. JMHO.

 

[Dhurrin]

In the past, I always offered fellowship anniversary prizes, games, quizzes, and challenges to keep the fellowship fun. The prizes were always KP, since that's basically the only prize an archmage or mages can give a player without the player having to go out of their way to claim something.

Now that Inno has basically DESTROYED an AM's ability to give prizes, since so many wonders are filled and they can't upgrade, what does anyone suggest? Forget gifts entirely? Is there any other fun activity that we can do?

I've thought of offering to accept a zero star trade as a gift, but then the player has to put up the trade, and sometimes they just feel funny doing so ... they're afraid their neighbors will think they are gougers. I obviously can't put up a good three star trade for them because it's likely they won't grab it in time, even with advance warning ... their computer could hiccup or the older ones just aren't fast enough.

So is there anything we can do to keep our fellowships fun now that Inno has thrown a wet blanket on all the activities?

Let's think up some alternates, please ... I'm out of ideas.

(By the way, I've stepped down as AM, but I'm asking for the group anyway.)

I feel the same way.
So I am offering a choice between 250.000 goods or 50KP.

However, the whole AW upgrading-system is just screwed right now.
These new requirements should be limited to either the newest AWs, or to all AWs but only from lvl 26 (or 21 even) upwards so new / smaller players have a chance to build up AWs to a decent level where they have an actual impact.

 

[Count Rupert]

Lost in all the complaining about the recent changes is the fact you can get AWs up to a decent level at a much lower level than before. Changing the method of leveling wonders wasn't the only change but it's all you hear about. Not only did they make changes to some of the wonders like Enar's but the benefits are frontloaded to the degree you're getting 50% of the benefits a level 35 wonder is getting at level 10 and getting 75% at level 16. For a lot of players you might not need to level them past 16. We need to rethink how we choose and level wonders. It's the nature of games like this to evolve. Do I like the changing of how wonders are leveled, hell no. but given the recent changes to temper the costs and make it somewhat easier to obtain the rare materials it tells me there is no chance of it going back to the way it was. Obviously they weren't happy with wonders. Just like they weren't expecting players to get 10 Moonstone Libraries, but when it happened they made changes. Now they're not saying why they made the changes but it seems to me we were collectively too successful in placing and leveling wonders and decided to rein us in. Now that it's insanely expensive to max out wonders we need to rethink our approach. Before it was easy to just place and level most of the wonders. Now we need to think about just how much we need the wonders we place and how high do we need to level them. Which ones can sit at level 16 and which ones are worth the cost to level them higher. Players have always sought to maximize their play. All the guides available are a testament to that. Well, we've been challenged. We need guides similar to the guides for guest races that have suggestions build around playing styles. What's the minimum level wonders need to be to be worth the land they're sitting. What alternatives there may be for any particular wonder. It's a new world.

 

[Dhurrin]

Lost in all the complaining about the recent changes is the fact you can get AWs up to a decent level at a much lower level than before. Changing the method of leveling wonders wasn't the only change but it's all you hear about. Not only did they make changes to some of the wonders like Enar's but the benefits are frontloaded to the degree you're getting 50% of the benefits a level 35 wonder is getting at level 10 and getting 75% at level 16. For a lot of players you might not need to level them past 16. We need to rethink how we choose and level wonders. It's the nature of games like this to evolve. Do I like the changing of how wonders are leveled, hell no. but given the recent changes to temper the costs and make it somewhat easier to obtain the rare materials it tells me there is no chance of it going back to the way it was. Obviously they weren't happy with wonders. Just like they weren't expecting players to get 10 Moonstone Libraries, but when it happened they made changes. Now they're not saying why they made the changes but it seems to me we were collectively too successful in placing and leveling wonders and decided to rein us in. Now that it's insanely expensive to max out wonders we need to rethink our approach. Before it was easy to just place and level most of the wonders. Now we need to think about just how much we need the wonders we place and how high do we need to level them. Which ones can sit at level 16 and which ones are worth the cost to level them higher. Players have always sought to maximize their play. All the guides available are a testament to that. Well, we've been challenged. We need guides similar to the guides for guest races that have suggestions build around playing styles. What's the minimum level wonders need to be to be worth the land they're sitting. What alternatives there may be for any particular wonder. It's a new world.

All true to a point, but it a completely insane way of reasoning, which only widens the gap between players.

Longtime active players already will have (or at least could have if they so desired) a crapload of AWs at high levels, or even maxed. So their need for CC's, spellfrags and RRs to level the rest is nowhere near as high as for smaller players, while at the same time these players will have a far easier time to gain more of them.
Smaller/newer players now have a gap they will basically never be able to close due to the increased cost.
Yes, maybe one can say you don't need to get AWs to a high level, however that will mean one needs to place more of them. Space is the ultimate resource, so now those players will have to dedicate more space to AWs if they are being encouraged to have lower level AWs.
Not to mention I can see on my map (well, where it isn't goldmines, which now is about 60% of my map, probably at least in part because so many players are quitting) is the fact there are many AWs sitting and waiting to be leveled, indicating a great shortage of the ability to level them.

Saying "oh, it is what it is, Inno just made some changes and the players have to deal with it" is absolutely not completely true; players are not bound to Inno, they can just as easily say "screw Inno, I'm taking my time and money elsewhere". And you can see that happening on all servers.

Screwing over your playerbase NEVER is good business.
Not listening to your playerbase, in fact completely ignoring all the feedback from your beta group, same thing, NOT a good way to do business.
Many players agreed something needed to be changed, but then absolutely disregarding all suggestions from those players is again NOT a good way to do business.

 

[Count Rupert]

All true to a point, but it a completely insane way of reasoning, which only widens the gap between players.

Longtime active players already will have (or at least could have if they so desired) a crapload of AWs at high levels, or even maxed. So their need for CC's, spellfrags and RRs to level the rest is nowhere near as high as for smaller players, while at the same time these players will have a far easier time to gain more of them.
Smaller/newer players now have a gap they will basically never be able to close due to the increased cost.
Yes, maybe one can say you don't need to get AWs to a high level, however that will mean one needs to place more of them. Space is the ultimate resource, so now those players will have to dedicate more space to AWs if they are being encouraged to have lower level AWs.
Not to mention I can see on my map (well, where it isn't goldmines, which now is about 60% of my map, probably at least in part because so many players are quitting) is the fact there are many AWs sitting and waiting to be leveled, indicating a great shortage of the ability to level them.

Saying "oh, it is what it is, Inno just made some changes and the players have to deal with it" is absolutely not completely true; players are not bound to Inno, they can just as easily say "screw Inno, I'm taking my time and money elsewhere". And you can see that happening on all servers.

Screwing over your playerbase NEVER is good business.
Not listening to your playerbase, in fact completely ignoring all the feedback from your beta group, same thing, NOT a good way to do business.
Many players agreed something needed to be changed, but then absolutely disregarding all suggestions from those players is again NOT a good way to do business.

Your points are also true to a point. This isn't the first time they've made changes extremely unpopular with the player base that players left and it won't be the last. Whatever vision they are working from apparently doesn't involve our input. Whether that's good for business only they and their accountant know for sure. We're using a poor metric to decide it's bad for business without knowing whether those leaving the game represent a significant portion of their income from the player base or not. They have the advantage of being able to see the actual numbers. If it did represent a significant portion of their income it would be bad for business to continue on that path unless there is some other motion than making money. The fact they're just making adjustments to make it somewhat easier to obtain the rare resources it'll take to level wonders and not rolling back changes suggests the player flight isn't affecting the bottom line as much we believe based on the number of missing players we see. We're not going to have much success convincing them using arguments based on numbers they know whether they are hurting them as much we argue that they are or not.

The smaller/newer players have always had a grand canyon sized gap that you can never quite close even before this change. Even if you throw money at the problem. I started playing around the time they decided to nerf the Moonstone Library and limit how many you could have of certain buildings going forward. I didn't have any of the pieces of the set. The older players are always going to be ahead. Time in the game is something you really can't make up. You get locked out of things you had to be there to get like multiple Moonstone sets. You just do the best you can with what you can get. The Moonstone sets gave two big advantages, the spell fragments they game and the CCs. Wasn't much I could do about the spell fragments once I finally did get the Moonstone set, so I worked on obtaining buildings that could yield CCs. After a fashion I'm probably close to what the older players get but I'm sure there is still a gap and certainly a gap based on those in storage. Point is this change to wonders didn't create a gap. There was a gap and is one now and will still be one in the future. Every time there is a change or a new building the gap gets wider. This isn't new. Question is always how close can one get? Is it possible to get close enough to continue to draw new players?

All I'm saying for those still interested in continuing to play, this is now the game we have to play. And we would be better off seeking to adjust our playing styles to the new realities. I wonder if the current AW changes were in place when wonders we added to the game whether we'd be having this discussion or whether we would have tested and created guides on the best ways of maximizing our wonder use?

 

[Dhurrin]

Your points are also true to a point. This isn't the first time they've made changes extremely unpopular with the player base that players left and it won't be the last. Whatever vision they are working from apparently doesn't involve our input. Whether that's good for business only they and their accountant know for sure. We're using a poor metric to decide it's bad for business without knowing whether those leaving the game represent a significant portion of their income from the player base or not. They have the advantage of being able to see the actual numbers. If it did represent a significant portion of their income it would be bad for business to continue on that path unless there is some other motion than making money. The fact they're just making adjustments to make it somewhat easier to obtain the rare resources it'll take to level wonders and not rolling back changes suggests the player flight isn't affecting the bottom line as much we believe based on the number of missing players we see. We're not going to have much success convincing them using arguments based on numbers they know whether they are hurting them as much we argue that they are or not.

The smaller/newer players have always had a grand canyon sized gap that you can never quite close even before this change. Even if you throw money at the problem. I started playing around the time they decided to nerf the Moonstone Library and limit how many you could have of certain buildings going forward. I didn't have any of the pieces of the set. The older players are always going to be ahead. Time in the game is something you really can't make up. You get locked out of things you had to be there to get like multiple Moonstone sets. You just do the best you can with what you can get. The Moonstone sets gave two big advantages, the spell fragments they game and the CCs. Wasn't much I could do about the spell fragments once I finally did get the Moonstone set, so I worked on obtaining buildings that could yield CCs. After a fashion I'm probably close to what the older players get but I'm sure there is still a gap and certainly a gap based on those in storage. Point is this change to wonders didn't create a gap. There was a gap and is one now and will still be one in the future. Every time there is a change or a new building the gap gets wider. This isn't new. Question is always how close can one get? Is it possible to get close enough to continue to draw new players?

All I'm saying for those still interested in continuing to play, this is now the game we have to play. And we would be better off seeking to adjust our playing styles to the new realities. I wonder if the current AW changes were in place when wonders we added to the game whether we'd be having this discussion or whether we would have tested and created guides on the best ways of maximizing our wonder use?

I feel I'm not using too poor a metric; the amount of large, long-time players I know has substantially dropped.
I personally know several large players who have quit and even deleted their account over this last change; in fact more than I personally knew over all the other issues combined.
You can see it in the shuffling in the FSs too, it's getting harder to recruit as there just are fewer fish in the pond.

And yes, there always has been a gap between new players and long-term players. I never denied that. But this new game mechanic has widened the gulf in a way that is all but impossible to close. I know, I have tried setting up new cities and in no time all 3 of them got stuck on their AWs and I'm not exactly a newbe player, so I know my way around the game.

Your last argument about what if if it had always been this way makes no sense whatsoever considering the way the game has evolved. What-if games are nonsensical anyway, not to mention the AWs have been around way longer than the crafting.

And yes, there is a HUGE problem with a gap that cannot be closed that wasn't there before. Even with only a few rounds of tourney for a few provinces a new player can gain quite some extra KPs to help grow an AW. But not so much for spellfrags, CCs and certainly not RRs.
So even if one wanted to up the GA, the best space-saving AW in the game, only to lvl 15, which certainly was not too hard, one now needs
a crapload of CCs and Spellfrags as well as an amount of very precious RR spells, which especially for newer cities are really hard to get.

 

[Darielle]

On my chapter 6 city, I've only got one AW and right now I'm not adding kp to it because I want to save it for those "use kp" quests. I never had to worry about that before. If you are tech locked and you can't add kp anywhere but wonders, you'll be totally locked out of events and not be able to play them, if you don't save the few open AWs you have. As my two-year-old, way back when, used to love to say to any problem, "ALLES KAPUT!!!.

 

[BrinDarby]

If you are tech locked and you can't add kp anywhere but wonders, you'll be totally locked out of events and not be able to play them, if you don't save the few open AWs you have.

Fire up your browser, and you can add KP to any AW
from anyone on the world map. It will take time for
everyone to fill up every AW, to block this dongle.
( not just your discovered neighbors, everyone on map )

 

[Lelanya]

Please don't.

 

[Meadowlark]

Fire up your browser, and you can add KP to any AW
from anyone on the world map. It will take time for
everyone to fill up every AW, to block this dongle.
( not just your discovered neighbors, everyone on map )

I am now imagining a future in which there are cities with nothing but ancient wonders from chapter 4-5 waiting to have KP added to them. The cities would probably have to tournament at some level to get the required runes, then just keep building them and knocking them down.

 

[TimeMachine]

It will take time for
everyone to fill up every AW, to block this dongle.
( not just your discovered neighbors, everyone on map )

Please don't.

I am always happy when anybody donates to any of my Ancient Wonders, but I know that lots of players don't like that although it is not forbidden and possible by design.

In my long forgotten past on DE, I was reported to support several times because of adding KP to other players Ancient Wonders.
Some of them even wrote very long PMs that I shouldn't do that.
I didn't really understand why anyone doesn't want KP in her or his Ancient Wonders and why it should be so wrong to donate KP to players out of the fellowship, especially when it is possible by game-design.

That's why I encouraged Team DE to start a thread in forum dealing with this topic back in the days.
They opend a thread called "Dissatisfaction with Ancient Wonder Pirates"

I was a little shocked how seriously some players were taking this topic and how "hard" the discussion was, especially because this thread was long before the Ancient-Wonder-Changes.
If anyone is interested:

Wichtig! - Unmut über Wunder-Piraten

Liebe Menschen und Elfen, aufgrund eines derzeit sehr hohen Aufkommens an Beschwerden zum Thema "Fremdeinzahlung in Wunder", "Piraterie" und "Störung von QuickFill/Ketten", möchten wir hier und heute die Situation dieses Elementes im Spiel und die Stellung des Elvenar-Teams dazu deutlich...

de.forum.elvenar.com

All you got to do to read it in english is to let google translate to english page by page.

To me this thread was very educational. It helped me learn about all the different views players got and how different Elvenar can be played.

After that thread was unfortunately closed by CM, I didn't donate to players out of my fellowships for a long time because I didn't want to "annoy" anybody.
Nowadays I do this a little from time to time and mysteriously noone is blaming me for doing it any more.

 

[Lelanya]

So you are taking some words out of context. I don't mind the odd donation; however some players are taking the suggested strategy to heart, too much so.

I manage my resources, always have, just a little more carefully now.

 

[TimeMachine]

So you are taking some words out of context. I don't mind the odd donation

OK, Sorry - understood!

however some players are taking the suggested strategy to heart, too much

I guess you are right! This is what, among other things, that old thread is about.

 

[Darielle]

When I was brand new and didn't have much territory, people would gift me and I couldn't gift them back, so instead I put a kp or two into their wonders as a "thank you" until I was able to gift them. I received a couple of nasty messages and almost quit the game because I was so shocked. How was I to know? Whenever I see that behavior now, I look to see if they are a newbie. If so, I thank them for their efforts and tell that some people prefer not to get 1 or 2 kp from strangers, so they shouldn't feel guilty about not being able to gift back. I also tell them that if they ever have a problem getting someone to take their 2 star trades, just let me know and I'll scoop them up. I wind up with some friends that way, and they are glad for the heads up on the kp.

If they experienced and just throwing a kp everywhere, then I'll put 1 kp on each of their wonders. I had one guy stop doing it to me after I started that, lol.

 

[BrinDarby]

A: on login, there's the msg to give to others'
AWs and get some back.

B: if the net zero theme is used, then who cares.

C: any FS that cannot "bump" someone giving
1-2 KP, then they deserve it.

D: Not much ya can do to someone who doesnt
have any AWs to mess with

E: Its not against TOS or Game rules, so... 100% legal.

F: What is a Solo player to do with so many different
tasks that ask for KP/AW donations ??? quit ??
Personal Tasks / Event Tasks / Seasons' Tasks.... players
cannot really get away from donating... to someone.