Subtraction from restoration spells

[ZeNSiErT]

Hello

Today there was an update for the Tome of Secrets.

It was possible after the previous update to set up the tome at level 1 for 100 fragments + 1 combo trigger. You could then tear it down again for 2 combinations and 1 restoration spell. This made it possible to earn the restoration spells for fragments.

Now it is called a bug and in the German forum there are threats to punish players for the mistakes the programmers made after the updates went online without testing in beta.

What is the opinion here? Can players hope for the support of the moderators?

To be honest, I don't see any bugs. If so, then the beta was not used to test the update.

I wish you a nice week

 

[TimeMachine]

What is the opinion here?

This is definetley not an easy topic.

To me it seems like a bug by design, that one was able to use. I've already heard of it but didn't want to use it for the same reason I still haven't bought any diamonds - I wanna know how it feels to be really playing.

In @InnoGames General Terms and Conditions is clearly said that if you recognize any bugs that could represent an advantage for you and others, you have to report it to support immediately.
Quote: "Intentionally exploiting bugs or fault, or publishing such exploits on the Internet or though mobile applications, can lead to an immediate cancellation of the Licensing Agreement without notice and a deletion of the Account."

Spoiler: General Terms and Coditions Art. 11 cheating

So, if I would be the Judge of Bugusing, I would either congratulate the devs for fast bugfixing and don't talk about it any more or I would have to check every account in order to find those who for example built and sold their Tome for about 300 times.
From those I would maybe take away the RRs produced by bugusing, if would be a gracious judge, because as you can read above:

"Intentionally exploiting bugs or fault, or publishing such exploits on the Internet or though mobile applications, can lead to an immediate cancellation of the Licensing Agreement without notice and a deletion of the Account."

From this perspective, any buguser can be very happy having her or his Account not deleted.

On the one hand the reason for overacting in forum on DE is that the community over there is pretty quarreled I guess.
Back in the days when I was still allowed to write posts there I often appealed to both "sides", to the team and to the players, to be more friendly with each other because we're all just playing the same game.
I think it is very sad that I have to speak from those "two sides" because they are all part of the same game and the same community.

Since they banned me forever things in german Forum seem to get more and more like an endless fight between playerbase and Team DE.
I had tried my best to change this but I was hit by the crossfire.
One thing that I' was very happy to recognize over here is definetley missing over there - it is neutrality like every moderation should have.

Not to argue that much with the playerbase and to finally throw away their "enemy images" of whoever would be my advise to Team DE.

Of course this is/was a bug but I guess a moderation team should be neutral enough to handle that in forum without insulting players by calling them dump or assume players for "playing dump". By this all they succeed to achieve is bad mood in the community I guess.
If I would be a responsible body @InnoGames I would see a need to talk to the team about their external impact that can be red by the whole world.

On the other hand I can understand german players that see no need to support Team DE by reporting bugs or in any other way any more.
"You reap what you sow!"

 

[Lelanya]

Now the reason to close the Forums makes so much sense. Thank you both. x

 

[ZeNSiErT]

"Intentionally exploiting bugs or fault, or publishing such exploits on the Internet or though mobile applications, can lead to an immediate cancellation of the Licensing Agreement without notice and a deletion of the Account."

Of course you are right when it comes to real bugs. But I think the Elvenar community has been very committed to fair play for 9 years. We are not known for cheating.

I reported 2 bugs myself. 1 bug in the adventure. Another bug in the Magic Academy with the Mystical Object. When you open a treasure chest with the app, the current production is automatically completed. I don't know if the bug still works after so many years? I have never used it. But for both reports I only received ridicule and scorn in the forum.

Being insulted as a bug user and being threatened with penalties doesn't feel right.

The moderators knew since Friday that it was not an "improvement" but another mistake by the programmers. They didn't inform us and didn't warn us. Only now are they threatening the players.

I'm really sad about all this.

I haven't read anything about bugusing in 9 years. I hope Innogames will act prudently. Maybe we can find open ears here.

Now the reason to close the Forums makes so much sense. Thank you both. x

Unfortunately, I can't tell whether it's irony or not. But if the opinion is that we Germans screwed up, you're probably right. Sorry

 

[Pheryll]

There have been posts on discord asking if this was intentional. The moderators there have not weighed in negatively from what I have seen. Since it was clearly announced that the sell value of wonders included RR, then any change to the sell value should also be announced.

 

[Lelanya]

Nope I am serious. The decision to abandon such a great resource as the Forums has never made any sense. I use the Announcement area a couple of times per year to create resources or information. All our guest race feedback threads are gold mines.
To know that this decision came, because the company's own Forum is so toxic, puts this all into perspective.

 

[BrinDarby]

This is definetley not an easy topic.

On 1 hand is the player who just knows there were
changes, doesn't frequent the forums/discord and
just assumes its part of the changes. Since you aren't
getting something for free, just as other things you
are exchanging 1 thing for another. They see a good
deal and take it.

On the other hand is the player hook'd into the "know"
about all things, and takes full advantage of the situation.

"intent" is the key here.
I would think Inno would have to prove intent to
circumvent the system for a violation , but.......
remember many things we players find "workarounds"
for all the time, and none of that is bugsy'ing.

If there was no Beta server, I might be more sympathetic
to Inno on this 1, but as it is..... it was beta tested then went
live, its not the players's fault to think its just a feature
and use it. Bad testing on Inno's part =/= player's fault.

 

[ZeNSiErT]

"intent" is the key here.

I always thought a bug was when something didn't work properly. For example, if there had been 5 restorations instead of 1 as stated.

But everything worked correctly.

We were promised an improvement and yes, we found an improvement.

To know that this decision came, because the company's own Forum is so toxic, puts this all into perspective.

Unfortunately, it is exactly as TimeMachine described it. There has been no peace for 9 years. Without good survival training you have no chance in the DE forum.

TimeMachine was a top presenter. He invested a lot of time. I never understood what his mistake was and why he was banished.

 

[Astram]

FYI there will be a hotfix within the next hour, reportedly, to address this exploit.

 

[Pheryll]

FYI there will be a hotfix within the next hour, reportedly, to address this exploit.

Would love to see an announcement somewhere (including discord) of the new sell values for these two wonders.

 

[Dhurrin]

FYI there will be a hotfix within the next hour, reportedly, to address this exploit.

Question is whether this is to be considered a bug or not. Maybe it was not what they intended, but it was working as the text stated. Which would make it a mistake, which is different from a bug.

Besides, giving some players a loophole to deal with the crappy upgrading system is not exactly unbalancing.
And anyone who already has the Tome up over lvl 5 would hardly be tempted to tear it down for this. As for the GA, it is arguably the best AW in the game. I seriously doubt there are a lot of players who will be building that to lvl 1 and then tear it down for that bit of benefit.

It would be really nice if the devs were as bloody quick to listen and work on something when there really is a major problem; like this AW-upgrade system. The concession that was done still doesn't make it right, nor balanced, nor is it stopping the big players from maxing their AWs, yet still is hampering the smaller cities.
This, whether classified as a bug or as a mistake, was hardly something that warranted a 'hotfix within the hour'.

 

[Astram]

This, whether classified as a bug or as a mistake, was hardly something that warranted a 'hotfix within the hour'.

Well either way Bug or Exploit was being used, it was enough of a concern to do a Hotfix, I was just notified and then passed the "Within an Hour", so as to keep everyone in the loop and not be a surprise when it happened. So for that, I will take the heat ...

 

[Dhurrin]

Well either way Bug or Exploit was being used, it was enough of a concern to do a Hotfix, I was just notified and then passed the "Within an Hour", so as to keep everyone in the loop and not be a surprise when it happened. So for that, I will take the heat ...

Fair enough. Still, I feel 'exploit' is a bit of an exaggeration. Used, by a relatively small number of people, sure. For a relatively small gain too.

 

[TimeMachine]

For a relatively small gain too.

I've just heard that the record in using this bug is at about 1,7K of RR which had of course been taken away again.

All one, who wanted to use the bug, had to do was just starting and selling the construction of the Tome of Secrets again and again - small input of spell fragments no loss of runes and a nice income of RR.

On the one hand I think it is good that it could be fixed this fast.

On the other hand, to me, it shows that changes that were maybe implemented a little too fast can can have their pitfalls.

 

[BrinDarby]

I think it is good that it could be fixed this fast.

I agree, TM ... but doesn't that mean that Inno
doesn't have plausable deniability to say most
"mistakes" can't also be fix'd this quickly ??

The other hand to me says..... Us non beta testers,
deal with what goes live. If a new set of chgs are
to go live, many ppl just assume its part of the chgs.
is it a "Feature" or a "Bug" , srry to say it depends
on knowing the correct outcome. Unless Inno
publishes all the data on the chgs, the playerbase
won't know which it is.

The players did what players always do, and in this
case it was brought on by the poor AW chgs. They
sifted thru the chgs for any upsides, when they found
one they used it. Not any different than tweak'n your
city for a FA, or any other of the workarounds that
we players figure out.

I think Inno over-reacted and didn't just do thier
"hot-fix" asap, and call it a done deal. Why wasn't
this caught in beta ?? Did that many ppl really
exploit this ??

 

[TimeMachine]

Unless Inno
publishes all the data on the chgs, the playerbase
won't know which it is.

I agree! But I guess the fact alone that one was able to "produce" 1RR per 1K spell fragments couldn't have been wanted by design, who would ever buy RR again or produce them with blueprints?

Plus i think it is very funny that with all that back and forth changes about the wonders and just a few days on beta before rolling out on live @InnoGames, the Beta-Community and the Life-Communities as well were caught up midst some kind of general chaos, that for a while nobody really recognized what was possible now.
Since I am definetly not interested in bugusing in general, it was not in my intrest but since a fellow told me how easy it was to "farm" RRs that way, I was pretty sure that this couldn't have been intended that way by @InnoGames.

Normally I would have been obligated to report it especially since I knew about the "usable power" of this bug but since I've heard that official bug reports are Discord only and I am lifetime-banned from Elvenar-Discord-Server just because of a ban from DE, I must admit that I didn't felt very motivated to report a bug via support-ticket, especially because I cannot see if it already had been reported.

Back in the days I was really happy to gain some diamonds if I could succeeded in writing a complete bug report as the first in Beta-Forum, like for example the Tinlug-display-error on beta - my "proudest earned Diamonds" ever!

Meanwhile I am not even able to do so. To me another good example for the bad effects of splitting the community into pieces and ban people that always liked to help forever, but that is definetly offtopic here.

didn't just do thier
"hot-fix" asap, and call it a done deal. Why wasn't
this caught in beta ?

As far as i red about it it has been "talked" about in forum and was reported to Team DE shortly before last weekend.
When the wonder changes were fresh implemented on beta - there were so many new things and problems to master - Culture for example or fellows quitting the game - that nobody had enough time to check everything new out in peace.

I assume that this short beta-phase was intended by @InnoGames in order to prevent Live-Players from "panic upgrading" their wonders.

but doesn't that mean that Inno
doesn't have plausable deniability to say most
"mistakes" can't also be fix'd this quickly ??

I don't think so, this mustn't mean that @InnoGames lied about how fast anything can or could be fixed.
How fast and if something can be changed or implemented depends on the kind of bug or issue and, of course I don't know about it, but I am pretty sure that the devs have some kind of priority list that they have to follow.

Of course, not impossible to think of the possibility that in some cases it was maybe told that something could not be fixed or not be fixed that fast, because they didnt't want to fix it or want/have to fix it "later".

Did that many ppl really
exploit this ??

German Community Managment said that on DE alone there were over 1,5K of cases, in which players were excessivly using the bug, what means they didnt just collect a few but for example a few hundrets of RR.

 

[BrinDarby]

But I guess the fact alone that one was able to "produce" 1RR per 1K spell fragments couldn't have been wanted by design,

Plenty of things didn't make sense over the years,
they weren't all bugs....

I didn't felt very motivated to report a bug via support-ticket, especially because I cannot see if it already had been reported.

I'd say prolly more than a few just didn't report it, but
the fact the DE discord knew about it BEFORE it went
live, means Inno is responsible for this problem and
any loss due to explotation.

I assume that this short beta-phase was intended by @InnoGames in order to prevent Live-Players from "panic upgrading" their wonders.

Thats prolly right, and it backfired on Inno in
more ways than one.....

means they didnt just collect a few but for example a few hundrets of RR.

Well, the price of just 1 AW to lvl 31 is like 140 RRs now,
no wonder players tried to recoup some of that loss. (but)
I do find that somewhat halarious.

 

[Astram]

I don't think so, this mustn't mean that @InnoGames lied about how fast anything can or could be fixed.
How fast and if something can be changed or implemented depends on the kind of bug or issue

From my prior experiences working with Devs, I do know some "fixes" are relatively easy to "hotfix" as only a small word change is needed so in this case maybe only adding the exception that canceling the build does not equate to selling and thereby avoiding the refund of CC and RR. Or even simpler is possible since I dont know the game code

 

[Pheryll]

From my prior experiences working with Devs, I do know some "fixes" are relatively easy to "hotfix" as only a small word change is needed so in this case maybe only adding the exception that canceling the build does not equate to selling and thereby avoiding the refund of CC and RR. Or even simpler is possible since I dont know the game code

What was suggested by Karvest on Discord was, instead of changing the sell refund for SF, CC, and RR, to cause selling to not refund the rune wheel (thus limiting the use of the place and sell to require a full rune wheel investment each time). The exploit was primarily selling before the building was complete and thus selling at that early stage refunded the entire rune wheel allowing immediate repetition.

 

[Astram]

What was suggested by Karvest on Discord was, instead of changing the sell refund for SF, CC, and RR, to cause selling to not refund the rune wheel (thus limiting the use of the place and sell to require a full rune wheel investment each time). The exploit was primarily selling before the building was complete and thus selling at that early stage refunded the entire rune wheel allowing immediate repetition.

I am aware of how the exploit worked and of Karvest's idea, but my point was that some fixes are very easy to do, and therefore can be done quickly and safely.