ajqtrz
Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Having spent a lot of time on the thread generally against cross tier trading AND that thread, having reached a point where we've understood the need, I think for logic and reasoning upon premises, I thought it best to not bury this at the end of 8 pages of that discussion. Here I'm using logic and premises to lay out what I think is the case FOR doing away with both the cross-tier trading rules AND the anti 0 star and 1 star rules. I call it Open Trading and to make it easy (I hope) I've laid out the premises and conclusions as I see them at this time. I know they could be wrong but if we keep our heads about us we should be able to sort them out and either confirm or correct my thinking. Thanks.
Premise 1: The value of a trade is determined by the ones doing the trade. " It is a judgement based upon some desired outcome made by those involved in the transactions." Lyapo1 Soggy also acknowledge this point in one of his threads.
Premise 2: "Fairness" is a measure of the value of a trade in the sense that each party believes they have received about the same overall value as the other party.
Premise 3: All trades contain pressure from intangible things, like timing, supply, demand, that must be included in the measure of value.
Thus: Since it is the individuals in the trade that determine if the trade is fair or not (since they determine the value of the trade), and since they alone are able to measure the intangibles in their individual cases, it stands to reason that they alone are the ones who can best determine if the trade is fair or not, provided they do their own evaluation of the trade.
Premise 1: Those outside the trade have little to no ability to measure the value of a trade since they are not party to many of the intangibles within the individuals situation.
Premise 2: The star system is a measure developed by those, for the most part, out side the individual trades.
Premise 3: The star system does not and cannot measure and include the intangibles in it's evaluation of the trade because it relies upon the cost of production almost entirely and does not include the intangibles mentioned above.
Conclusion: Using the star system to access the fairness of the trade is seldom accurate.
Premise 1: Using the star system to set rules about trading means some trades will be patently unfair.
Premise 2: Cross-tier trades are just like any other trades in that their value is determined by those who make the trade.
Premise 3: Those who use the star system to measure the fairness of a trade are using an outside measure that cannot reflect the specific value of the trade within the context of the needs/desires of the parties in the transaction.
Conclusion: Therefore, since the star system is not an accurate measure of the value of the trade, since using it can and will produce an inaccurate measure of the value of the trade, those who use it will, inadvertently, take trades that are unfair to them.
Premise 1: Encouraging the use of the star system to determine the fairness of the trade encourages players to inadvertently make more bad trades than they would if they considered the value of the trade and included their own personal intangibles.
Premise 2: Restricting the ability to do cross-tier trading through rules restricts the ability to take advantage of what may be valuable to the ones doing the trade, limits the opportunities to engage in fair trades. (After all, if I can't trade it, I can't do a fair trade, right?)
Premise 3: Cross-tier trading assumes the value of the trade is based upon the cost of production and thus is a faulty and inaccurate foundation.
Conclusion: Encouraging or using any restrictive system to impose, suggest or coerce a belief in the value of a trade, often trains players in the fine art of making bad trades look like good ones.
Objections:
1) If everybody stuck to the 1:1 ratio within tiers and did not cross-tier trading everything would be fair.
Response: Since fair is determined by the traders, if I know the supply of scrolls is 20% more than silk and I am forced to trade my scrolls for silk at 1:1 I will know that the trade is not equal in value and thus unfair.
In addition, if everybody had to stick to 1:1 within tier trades, the pressure of the intangibles would become discouraging. The reason people don't always trade 1:1 is the intangibles. They are important in evaluating the value of a trade and if you have no way to get more silk when you need it because you don't have crystal (or need it too) and nobody is buying scrolls (as the market has become saturated and nobody is about to give you 10000 silk for 10000 scrolls since they don't need the scrolls), you are forced to do nothing. You will not be finishing that last quest which needs the silk and you will not be getting that last prize. Experiencing enough of that, and you will, means more people quitting.
2) Cross-tier trades help/harm somebody.
Response: The measure of help/harm is in the hands of the traders, not those outside. A player who consistently harms themselves in the game by letting those outside the trade determine it's value will suffer more than one who measures the value of the trade for himself/herself.
3) The flow of goods will be harmed by cross tier trades.
Response: It may be that the flow of goods will slow in some cases, but since the opening of the trading to allow cross-tier and 0 or 1 star trades will also increase the size of the market (meaning more trading going on) the rate of transactions may go up. And since the player can now offer his or her scrolls for T1 or T3 goods, the player has more possible things they can buy with those scrolls. Overall I believe the flow of goods will increase, not decrease, though I may be wrong.
Overall conclusion: Since the two main restriction in trading: the 0 star and 1 star rule and the no cross tier rule (with exceptions of course) cause players to inadvertently make less than optimal (and thus "unfair") trades, the rules should be dropped and players trained to ignore the star system and measure the value of the trade including the intangibles.
AJ
Premise 1: The value of a trade is determined by the ones doing the trade. " It is a judgement based upon some desired outcome made by those involved in the transactions." Lyapo1 Soggy also acknowledge this point in one of his threads.
Premise 2: "Fairness" is a measure of the value of a trade in the sense that each party believes they have received about the same overall value as the other party.
Premise 3: All trades contain pressure from intangible things, like timing, supply, demand, that must be included in the measure of value.
Thus: Since it is the individuals in the trade that determine if the trade is fair or not (since they determine the value of the trade), and since they alone are able to measure the intangibles in their individual cases, it stands to reason that they alone are the ones who can best determine if the trade is fair or not, provided they do their own evaluation of the trade.
Premise 1: Those outside the trade have little to no ability to measure the value of a trade since they are not party to many of the intangibles within the individuals situation.
Premise 2: The star system is a measure developed by those, for the most part, out side the individual trades.
Premise 3: The star system does not and cannot measure and include the intangibles in it's evaluation of the trade because it relies upon the cost of production almost entirely and does not include the intangibles mentioned above.
Conclusion: Using the star system to access the fairness of the trade is seldom accurate.
Premise 1: Using the star system to set rules about trading means some trades will be patently unfair.
Premise 2: Cross-tier trades are just like any other trades in that their value is determined by those who make the trade.
Premise 3: Those who use the star system to measure the fairness of a trade are using an outside measure that cannot reflect the specific value of the trade within the context of the needs/desires of the parties in the transaction.
Conclusion: Therefore, since the star system is not an accurate measure of the value of the trade, since using it can and will produce an inaccurate measure of the value of the trade, those who use it will, inadvertently, take trades that are unfair to them.
Premise 1: Encouraging the use of the star system to determine the fairness of the trade encourages players to inadvertently make more bad trades than they would if they considered the value of the trade and included their own personal intangibles.
Premise 2: Restricting the ability to do cross-tier trading through rules restricts the ability to take advantage of what may be valuable to the ones doing the trade, limits the opportunities to engage in fair trades. (After all, if I can't trade it, I can't do a fair trade, right?)
Premise 3: Cross-tier trading assumes the value of the trade is based upon the cost of production and thus is a faulty and inaccurate foundation.
Conclusion: Encouraging or using any restrictive system to impose, suggest or coerce a belief in the value of a trade, often trains players in the fine art of making bad trades look like good ones.
Objections:
1) If everybody stuck to the 1:1 ratio within tiers and did not cross-tier trading everything would be fair.
Response: Since fair is determined by the traders, if I know the supply of scrolls is 20% more than silk and I am forced to trade my scrolls for silk at 1:1 I will know that the trade is not equal in value and thus unfair.
In addition, if everybody had to stick to 1:1 within tier trades, the pressure of the intangibles would become discouraging. The reason people don't always trade 1:1 is the intangibles. They are important in evaluating the value of a trade and if you have no way to get more silk when you need it because you don't have crystal (or need it too) and nobody is buying scrolls (as the market has become saturated and nobody is about to give you 10000 silk for 10000 scrolls since they don't need the scrolls), you are forced to do nothing. You will not be finishing that last quest which needs the silk and you will not be getting that last prize. Experiencing enough of that, and you will, means more people quitting.
2) Cross-tier trades help/harm somebody.
Response: The measure of help/harm is in the hands of the traders, not those outside. A player who consistently harms themselves in the game by letting those outside the trade determine it's value will suffer more than one who measures the value of the trade for himself/herself.
3) The flow of goods will be harmed by cross tier trades.
Response: It may be that the flow of goods will slow in some cases, but since the opening of the trading to allow cross-tier and 0 or 1 star trades will also increase the size of the market (meaning more trading going on) the rate of transactions may go up. And since the player can now offer his or her scrolls for T1 or T3 goods, the player has more possible things they can buy with those scrolls. Overall I believe the flow of goods will increase, not decrease, though I may be wrong.
Overall conclusion: Since the two main restriction in trading: the 0 star and 1 star rule and the no cross tier rule (with exceptions of course) cause players to inadvertently make less than optimal (and thus "unfair") trades, the rules should be dropped and players trained to ignore the star system and measure the value of the trade including the intangibles.
AJ