• Dear forum visitor,

    It looks as though you have not registered for a forum account, or are not signed in. In order to participate in current discussions or create new threads, you will need to register for a forum account by clicking on the link below.

    Click here to register for a forum account!

    If you already have a forum account, you can simply click on the 'Log in' button at the top right of your forum screen.

    Your Elvenar Team

The Elvenar AWs break unofficial rules

Yogi Dave

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
There are several 'rules' all AWs have had in common which the Elvenar AWs break. These aren't official rules, but all AWs have followed them. Breaking them changes the expectations about new AWs and it seems worthwhile to comment on them.
  1. The number of KP required for upgrading an AW strictly depended on its footprint. It didn't matter which chapter it became available in. Following that rule the Vortex of Storage, VoS, with a footprint of 18 squares of land would require 149 KP for its first upgrade. The Thermal Spring of Youth, TSY, with a 21 sq. footprint would require 162 KP. Instead they both require 350 KP.
  2. The KP in the chests have been very close to 20% of the KP cost of the AW. The distribution of the KP and number of rune shards in the chests was also consistent. Thus, the expected amount of KP in the chests from the first upgrade of the VoS is 70 KP. Instead it is 40 which is only 11.4% of 350. That is the only upgrade I have completely seen the values for, but looking around the world, I've seen that the first and second chests have less KP in them than an AW with the same KP requirement. (As an aside, if anyone knows where the info about chest rewards is, I'd appreciate being directed to it. I've checked Gems Of Knowledge and it isn't there yet.)
  3. From one rune upgrade to another, the benefits an AW gave increased by the amount when first placed. For the Elvenar AWs this is a mixed bag. The VoS initial value for the portal storage increase is 6.5%. With each rune upgrade it increases by 7.5%. That is nice. However, the opposite is true about the sentient production boost. The initial value is 20%. The next rune upgrade shows an increase of 12% and each thereafter is 10%. The TSY initial value for residence population increase is 5%, but only 3% for the first rune one and 2.5% for all later ones. The culture benefit starts at 22.5x and increases by that amount with each rune upgrade, so it follows the old rule.
  4. The benefit increase by a KP upgrade was 1/6 the initial amount and 1/3 for a rune upgrade. Benefits that can't be split, such as 1KP, just increase with a rune upgrade. With the Elvenar AWs the increase becomes the same regardless of it being a KP or rune upgrade. There is an exception with the first one or two KP upgrades since they adjust the benefit increase changes breaking the third rule.
Breaking the first rule doesn't bother me since it has always seemed like an AW from a later chapter should cost more to upgrade, though I've been happy it hasn't. However, more than doubling it seems a bit steep.

Breaking the second rule bothers me. It reduces the benefit others get from contributing to other peoples AWs. People will tend to contribute less to these AWs, when there is a choice and the owner of the AW will get less help from others for upgrades, which are already more expensive than previous AWs. Also, wonder programs that share the 20% saving between those in the program will not experience as large a savings when this AWs are the targets to fill.

Breaking the third rule depends on what benefit you value from the AWs, but that has always been the case. The problem is with the expectations. If you get the TSY because you like the 5% increase in pop from housing and are expecting to have that doubled with the first rune upgrade occurs, you will be disappointed when it doesn't do that.

The fourth rule being broken doesn't really matter much.
 
Yogi Dave

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
I have visited CrazyWizard's site many times and have its link in my browser. Our wonder program spreadsheet has all the AW info in it except for the two new ones. It would have been easy to add them if Inno hadn't made the changes. The VoS would be like the Timewarp and some others and the TSV would be like the Blooming Trader Guild. Thanks though, it's good to mention his site as an Elvenar resource too.
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
It really doesn't help either that (in my opinion) the Elvenar AWs are kinda bad. The Vortex of Storage not only provides a weaker and more expensive sentient production boost than the one already seen on the Timewarp (though I guess they can be combined), the portal storage capacity is almost nonsensical to place on a Wonder obtained so late in the game. Currently it's completely useless, and even after additional chapters are added to the game I'm struggling to see any benefit to having it. Increasing capacity does not help with increasing production, which is what determines progression through a guest race chapter. Additionally, portal profit spells are available in increasing abundance, which can provide guest race goods immediately in essentially whatever amount is currently necessary, making normal production and capacity in general almost completely irrelevant. The one saving grace for this bonus would be if the capacity increase DOES affect portal profit spells, which I'm unsure of myself. Still wouldn't make it a good Wonder though, since it's locked behind 15 chapters of research.

Spring of Youth is better, but still mediocre. Since the bonus only affects residences, its usefulness varies depending on how many residences the owner actually has built. Some cities have very few and get their population primarily from (more efficient) buildings obtained from events, which are unaffected by this Wonder. The Golden Abyss is so much better to the point that it's probably the only Wonder a player might need if they're looking for a population bump. It's one of the first AWs a player can obtain, the smallest and cheapest one to upgrade, and provides additional population in a way that doesn't require any specific buildings.

I think I get what they were doing here though. The Elvenar AWs much more closely resemble the design of Great Buildings in Forge of Empires. Reward payouts over there add up to roughly 10% of the level cost for each of the 'base' 10 levels, and level costs are determined by the 'age' of the GB instead of being determined by size as Elvenar has always done up till now. I'm not necessarily opposed to this being the new way of doing things, but I don't really like it being a change instead of just picking a design and sticking with it, or changing all AWs to adhere to the new design.
 
Yogi Dave

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
qaccy said:
It really doesn't help either that (in my opinion) the Elvenar AWs are kinda bad.
Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion and most of your following comments, though I know nothing of FoE. I only have 8 magic residences in my city, so the pop boost from the Spring doesn't help me. It takes around 22 houses to gain the pop of 1 house from the Spring when 1st placed. Upgraded to level 6 doesn't half that number as it would with old rule since it only gives 8% bonus instead of 10%. My Timewarp is level 21 and adds a 120% sentient boost. The Vortex at level 30 only adds an 80% boost. The upgrade to level 30 is 1750 KP whereas the Timewarp upgrade to level 22 is 930 KP. There is no comparison. I mainly built the Vortex to see how the chests work in it and am very disappointed with only an 11.4% payout.
 
Ashrem

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
qaccy said:
I'm struggling to see any benefit to having it. Increasing capacity does not help with increasing production, which is what determines progression through a guest race chapter. Additionally, portal profit spells are available in increasing abundance, which can provide guest race goods immediately in essentially whatever amount is currently necessary, making normal production and capacity in general almost completely irrelevant. The one saving grace for this bonus would be if the capacity increase DOES affect portal profit spells, which I'm unsure of myself
Click to expand...
Capacity does control the effect of portal spells, so a way to increase total capacity makes PP more valuable, and thereby restores some of the original value lost in the recent decrease of availability. Every player shouldn't want every building. An ancient wonder that makes Portal Profits more valuable has more value to someone who doesn't participate in the Spire, since they will have fewer of the PPs to use.
qaccy said:
Reward payouts over there add up to roughly 10% of the level cost for each of the 'base' 10 levels, and level costs are determined by the 'age' of the GB instead of being determined by size as Elvenar has always done up till now. I'm not necessarily opposed to this being the new way of doing things, but I don't really like it being a change instead of just picking a design and sticking with it, or changing all AWs to adhere to the new design.
Click to expand...
The rebalancing a year or two back that increased the payout of AW chests was probably (as is normal for the elvenar team) too much, too fast. If they spent longer looking at the balance of changes, and implemented them in smaller doses, they could spend less time clawing-back generosity to fix their mistakes.
 

DeletedUser2959

Guest
qaccy said:
It really doesn't help either that (in my opinion) the Elvenar AWs are kinda bad. The Vortex of Storage not only provides a weaker and more expensive sentient production boost than the one already seen on the Timewarp (though I guess they can be combined), the portal storage capacity is almost nonsensical to place on a Wonder obtained so late in the game. Currently it's completely useless, and even after additional chapters are added to the game I'm struggling to see any benefit to having it. Increasing capacity does not help with increasing production, which is what determines progression through a guest race chapter.
Click to expand...

Coupla things, first we can use a teleport spell to hold it in inventory until we need it and second the increased capacity makes Portal Profits worth more since they give a % of your total cap.
 
NightshadeCS

NightshadeCS

Well-Known Member
RandomNo. said:
clearly, portal goods will continue to feature for future chapters and Vortex main use is for the future
Click to expand...
Yes, as much as it pains us, those of us near or at the end of the game must consider newer players and hope that there are many more chapters to come in which it will be useful.

I had never thought much about the "rules" that AWs tend to follow, so thanks for pointing those out, @Yogi Dave

Also, here is the link to the Gems AW Rewards Charts:
 
Mykan

Mykan

Oh Wise One
Yogi Dave said:
The KP in the chests have been very close to 20% of the KP cost of the AW. The distribution of the KP and number of rune shards in the chests was also consistent. Thus, the expected amount of KP in the chests from the first upgrade of the VoS is 70 KP. Instead it is 40 which is only 11.4% of 350. That is the only upgrade I have completely seen the values for, but looking around the world, I've seen that the first and second chests have less KP in them than an AW with the same KP requirement. (As an aside, if anyone knows where the info about chest rewards is, I'd appreciate being directed to it. I've checked Gems Of Knowledge and it isn't there yet.)
Click to expand...

I looked up the gems of knowledge wonder society template. It has the majority of the reward information there, levels 1-20
docs.google.com

ElvenGems Wonder Society - Template

Wonder Society Wonder Details,KP Contributions Stat,Person,Wonder,Date,Lv,Progress,Size,Remain,Chests,remain,Week,PileOn,Balance,Goal,Total,Piccard,Janeway,Riker,Jordy,Trip A,Riker,Timewarp,11/22/2020,11,0,610,610,7,7,48,-655,-45,610,0 A,Jordy,Dragon Abbey,11/22/2020,16,0,830,830,7,7,48,-1195,-3...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

It would appear after the first 5 levels that the return starts to go back towards the 20% mark.

Like you I had noticed the change in the rules for these wonders. Will be interesting to see if they are the new rules, I hope not.

Yogi Dave said:
From one rune upgrade to another, the benefits an AW gave increased by the amount when first placed. For the Elvenar AWs this is a mixed bag. The VoS initial value for the portal storage increase is 6.5%. With each rune upgrade it increases by 7.5%. That is nice. However, the opposite is true about the sentient production boost. The initial value is 20%. The next rune upgrade shows an increase of 12% and each thereafter is 10%. The TSY initial value for residence population increase is 5%, but only 3% for the first rune one and 2.5% for all later ones. The culture benefit starts at 22.5x and increases by that amount with each rune upgrade, so it follows the old rule.
Click to expand...

This I had not noticed. What I was aware of is the rune stage doubled the bonus for each level. In the case of the elvenar wonders that doubling at rune stage is not there and it is a standard increase the same as other levels. An exception been the Thermal spring does gives the doubling for its culture benefit.
 
Pheryll

Pheryll

Set Designer
The new leveling for the Elvenar wonders is smoothed out in that it does not do a double bonus at level 6 and every 5 levels thereafter. Two progressions can be seen in the new wonders- one that is more front loaded in level 1 benefits and one that is less front loaded. Also level 2 and 3 are sometimes used as part of the front loading to keep a clean number for the final. Given that most players will level these buildings to at least level 3, it may be more helpful to move all the front-loading benefit to the first level so that all levels have a smooth increase.

There is another wonder that breaks the leveling scheme (according to the wiki). The last five levels of victory springs produce much less than the anticipated increase.
 
Yogi Dave

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
Pheryll said:
The last five levels of victory springs produce much less than the anticipated increase.
Click to expand...

Interesting about the Victory Springs, VS. Unlike the Needles of the Tempest and the Flying Academy for their training building's speedup to 100% at level 30, VS's is at 92%. However, VS's other benefit, increase in Light Melee damage, follows the old rule.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top