Trading range

[DeletedUser1621]

Just curious, as I couldn't find anything specific in the Wiki. I see trades posted (or my trades accepted) for players somewhere around 10-12 rings out, but except for 2 players within my first 4 circles, these appear to be the only other active players in my Trader range.

So my questions are:
1) How far out (in rings) does your Trader's range extend?
2) Due the scouting "wall" threshold (mentioned in other threads) is it even feasible to "discover" a neighbor 12 rings out to eliminate the Trader's fees?

 

[DeletedUser61]

We've been chasing this over in the EN forums at https://en.forum.elvenar.com/index....e-and-number-of-trades.1827/page-3#post-12633

To cut to the chase, your trading zone for up to 200 undiscovered cities is a flat topped hexagon with most of 14 rings. Caveats?

• You may be on the edge of the map, which sucks
• You may have some vacant cities in your neighborhood, although the US realms are in pretty good shape
• If you join a Fellowship you'll have 24 trading partners who are FAR more reliable than random strangers

 

[Bootsie]

An out of range player and I have traded a few times, paying the penalty. She has been working toward me in the hopes to get a better deal. She has discovered me, but now can not see my trades at all. Are you aware of any reason why this might be??

 

[Bootsie]

I will count the rings and see if we hit the wall?? We could see the trades before, just not now.

 

[DeletedUser626]

Hiya Bootsie, I've also experienced being able to trade with cities I can no longer see on the trader. (even though I know they are active)

This is like Katwijk said, we have the 200 nearest cities as trading partners that we can see on our traders. When there is a purge (inactive cities removed in 30(cough)+ days, many neighboring cities are removed, we are then able to see cities on our trader that we couldn't before have access too.

 

[Bootsie]

After reading up on it a bit, I think you are right. Booo....poor neighbor spent all the time and energy working to my city

Thank you for responding

 

[DeletedUser626]

it won't be a wasted effort I hope, soon we'll have more advanced scouting options to get to those (teasers) traders. my hope is that discovered cities will allow us to see them on the trader even when they are past the 200 nearest cities

 

[DeletedUser1621]

So an interesting dynamic could end up being at play here. Being close to/at the edge of the map is not a boon from the perspective of having many near neighbors. I only have a recent addition of a single row of neighbors to my south and west, and no other players as far as the eye can see otherwise in those directions. I could conceivably reach farther to trade with neighbors to the north and east. However, after all that work of going 10-12-14 rings out, a fresh influx of new players expanding the map around me in a new spiral could turn that effort into naught because brand new cities will fill the 200 trading cities quota first. Fabulous.

 

[DeletedUser627]

So an interesting dynamic could end up being at play here. Being close to/at the edge of the map is not a boon from the perspective of having many near neighbors. I only have a recent addition of a single row of neighbors to my south and west, and no other players as far as the eye can see otherwise in those directions. I could conceivably reach farther to trade with neighbors to the north and east. However, after all that work of going 10-12-14 rings out, a fresh influx of new players expanding the map around me in a new spiral could turn that effort into naught because brand new cities will fill the 200 trading cities quota first. Fabulous.

Hi, Wicked. I have 240 provinces explored, some in rings 15. Here's my experience:

The trade value of a neighborhood (for me) has been virtually zero. I have small cities in 3 other worlds, and feel the same there. Even when plenty of trades show up from neighbors, the 50% penalty is too steep a penalty - progress is already slow enough. I started playing in July, when there were no fellowships, and really I don't know how any of us kept playing.

Exploring in order to get trade partners is a poor choice of options. Explore to get boosted relics and land expansions and NH.

At various stages, coins from NH have been invaluable. If I were spawned near the edge, I'd consider starting over and trying for a non-edge spot. Message Katwijk and ask him if the cost of encounters has been modified for players near the edge: it's possible that you can explore further into the interior at a reduced cost.

The only dependable source of Trade is within a fellowship. Your fellow players will be inclined to help you, and you will help them.

Even if you discover a large city, the results can vary widely. Let's say you were to discover me - well, it would be your lucky day. I pick up all my neighbors' trades - it's fun and I can afford it. But if you were to discover a city in XXX fellowship, you'd find nothing. Fellowships often get clicky and apply strategies to prevent neighbors from picking up their trades (posting huge trades only, only posting in direct response to a member's request, etc).

Basically, consider Neighborhood trading an incidental, accidental bonus. Applying strategy won't bring the dependable result, and could undermine your strategy to collect boosted relics.

 

[DeletedUser1621]

Thanks for the detailed response bobbipiazza! My original question had been asked, mostly out of curiosity from watching the activity in the Trader, not so much as trying to plan a strategy.

So far my game experience has been decent, in spite of the edge of map disadvantages.

Regarding Neighborhood trading as a strategy...my own opinion is this is a flawed strategy and had opted not to pursue it some time ago. Here's a handful of reasons why:
1 - Scouting costs for the provinces are determined by distance from your city. Period. No discounts for not having neighbors in the vicinity.
2 - Province encounters are rated by distance from your city. Period. The degree of difficulty in the battle, or costs for negotiation go up with every ring you expand outward. Again, no discounts for not having any neighbors.
For both 1 and 2 above, this means that if you are trying to trudge your way through provinces with a particular target or two in mind, your going to be spending massive amounts of resources to get there, and most likely well before your city (and army) is developed enough to sustain this approach. This seemed to me to be a recipe for great frustration and a ridiculously poor use of resources.
3 - Hard limit on number of provinces you can scout. As has been covered in several other threads in the forum, because of increasing costs, and maximum capacity of the Main Hall, eventually you run out provinces you have the physical capacity to to scout. I am convinced that you will reach this limit much sooner (meaning less provinces discovered and conquered) if you pursue a linear path rather than the circular one the game appears to indicate.
4 - (As you so kindly pointed out) Trading with neighbors may not be dependable. While I have a few neighbors within my current range, this may not always be the case. My experience may be different than yours, where I have been getting trades picked up by neighbors with some regularity. I am assuming it is more because they have discovered my city even though I have not yet reached theirs, but this could be an erroneous assumption. In either case, with a dynamically determined sphere of trading partners available, the game itself has added a degree of unreliability. Neighbors you're trading with today may not be available tomorrow.

Unfortunately, there is also nothing I can do about the reduction in NH available from the edge of the map. Abandoning and starting over is not an option as my city would not be recycled. However, just last week I did get a new row of neighbors (most of whom have already quit, but hey), so there is some hope for a growing neighbor pool for free coins (if you don't mind the mouse-clicks).

Pretty much the strategy I have adopted is to complete all provinces in a ring before moving on to the next ring, and I will try to target boosted provinces as well as I am able when I approach the maximum threshold. I don't see a lot of benefit to even partially linear expansions before then, as you typically need to trudge through the others to get to the boosted ones anyway.

Might not be the best approach, but it is the one I've chosen. Cheers!

 

[DeletedUser627]

I forgot to mention that there are some path concepts to maximize boosted relics. Some of the advanced Beta players have used this strategy for a long time, and the results are superior. I didn't know about this when I started - wish I had.

Province costs don't increase in direct proportion to the rings. Sometimes if we skip some provinces in a ring, the next ring is a bit lower than it otherwise would be.

Good luck!

 

[DeletedUser1621]

Yes, because the cost of scouting is also impacted by the number of provinces already scouted.

For example, the next province I scout will cost 54000 coins if I stay in ring 5. But if I scout one of the available provinces that sits in ring 6, this cost is cost is sitting at 95000 coins. Each new scout with raise the cost of the subsequent ones. But the big jump is going from ring to ring, where there is a step increase in addition to the minor jumps. So, I can agree that you can cut some of the costs out by skipping "unnecessary" provinces in *every* ring, and the step into the next ring won't have as high a total as if you had completed all the provinces in the previous ring.

However, this still doesn't address the issue of the increased costs or difficulties (and hence units lost) for each ring as well. Maybe this becomes less significant later in the game when you have unlocked and promoted all the different combat unit types, but early on, these provinces will be near impossible if you haven't developed enough along the way, unless you take a study in patience and rely on negotiating your way through - but even then I think it would be slow going.

There is likely an optimal threshold where you can afford to start "pathing" the boosted provinces. I'll have to study the map options more to see what percentage of provinces can be ignored. Eliminating even 10% of the provinces could mean the difference in getting one or two higher levels of boosts when you've maxed out.

 

[DeletedUser1621]

I forgot to mention that there are some path concepts to maximize boosted relics. Some of the advanced Beta players have used this strategy for a long time, and the results are superior. I didn't know about this when I started - wish I had.

Province costs don't increase in direct proportion to the rings. Sometimes if we skip some provinces in a ring, the next ring is a bit lower than it otherwise would be.

Good luck!

This whole concept consumed my thoughts about whether or not this was a good proposition (thanks! ). I started a new city in Khel last night just to test the theory. So today I completely got my geek on, printed out some hexagonal graphs, fully mapped out the repeating province patterns out to 16 rings, and prepared a maze-like treasure map, with a focus on boost provinces. I'll give it a go, but I have a strong feeling I'll end up deviating along the way.

Theoretical results look interesting.... on paper anyway. While obviously it is impossible to scout (and complete) *only* boost provinces, optimal paths can greatly reduce the number of non-boost provinces scouted.

Summary of first 6 rings:
Ring 1 - 6/6 provinces scouted (and taken).
Ring 2 - 4/6
Ring 3 - 5/12
Ring 4 - 14/18
Ring 5 - 11/18
Ring 6 - 15/24
-------------------
Total for first 6 Rings: 55/84

So just in the first 6 rings alone, it appears you can avoid scouting and completing 29 non-boost provinces, helping to keep your scouting costs for increasing, and reducing the collection of non-boost relics.

Comments and observations -
* Total provinces available to be scouted in each ring already removed the city hex's since they don't count for this, for anyone questioning my numbers by using a hex calculator.
* There are some user-level decisions that have to be made along the way, choosing one province path over another and so selection can vary.
* It's actually not strictly necessary to do all 6 in the first ring - at least 1 can be ignored, and possibly 2 depending on user preference - but they're so cheap and you can use the expansions early on that I still took them all.
* It is possible to completely avoid *ever* scouting one (and possibly 2) province type(s) via this method, but this is probably not recommended because of the Wonders requirements for boosted AND non-boosted relics. (Note: I have no personal data regarding Wonders requirements as I have not yet reached that level of play, but I am only surmising from second-hand information).
* This method will require sometimes advancing to a farther ring and then backtracking to a lower ring to minimize extraneous provinces.
* I opted for human for this exercise, rather than elves, because of feedback from others (namely varron) in the forums that human units have the advantage early on for clearing provinces starting at Ring 5.
* I took an old-school approach and did this manually on paper - sorry no spreadsheet available for manipulation for those so inclined (). But for those that want an idea of the methodology involved I'm including a photo

Disclaimers -
* Just because this may optimize/maximize the attainment of boosted relics and thus should result in massive production of goods, I do not, in any way, guarantee results.
* I do not specifically recommend this approach for regular game-play. I expect it to actually be an exercise in patience (expansions will be slow because fewer easier provinces will be cleared, thus fewer earned expansions) and plan to be somewhat frustrated often. Also, great care must be exercised to prevent inadvertently scouting "undesired" provinces.
* Any errors in my math (I can't tell you how many times I got all cross-eyed working on this ) are strictly the fault of the author.

 

[DeletedUser1017]

Theoretical results look interesting.... on paper anyway. While obviously it is impossible to scout (and complete) *only* boost provinces, optimal paths can greatly reduce the number of non-boost provinces scouted.

I have scouted toward my boosted goods from the beginning. The largest unbalance in boosted vs non-boosted for me is third tier: 174 Elixir relics vs. 87 Gem relics. I have purposely tried NOT to scout all the provinces in a ring, but leave 'gaps' so that when scouting costs reach the ceiling I will have 'emergency provinces' to use. Not sure if this is wise or not, but so far no complaints.

 

[DeletedUser627]

If any of you like to collect statistical data, Katwijk is compiling some information about fighting units and costs in provinces and would appreciate data input.

 

[DeletedUser61]

An umbrella pattern will probably minimize overall cost. I don't have any solid data yet, but the distant rings get expensive far faster than the interior rings, somewhere around n^6, while scouting costs are only somewhere around n^1.07. And the effect multiply.

Fighting a long ways from home is more difficult, of course, but if you CAN do it, it looks to me like you'll be able to fill the map for a 1/3 the cost by working outside in, and when you're bumping the Main Hall + Scouting Costs soft cap, you'll still have a bunch of interior sectors that are quite a bit cheaper.

I don't know how much cheaper overall, just yet, but a LOT cheaper.

 

[DeletedUser1621]

Introduction of Tournaments had a negative effect on targeting mostly boost provinces if you choose to participate in the non-boost ones. Introduction of the Orcs/Goblins parameters into the game has effectively killed this as a long term strategy unless you already happen to be at the end of the game and can acquire the necessary Orcs for negotiating when battling becomes impossible due to troop strength/unit size. It's still a good way to get your boosts going quickly early on, but you'll need to go back and fill in the ones skipped over earlier once you reach that threshold.

 

[DeletedUser3087]

If you have a Magic Academy and are building spells. Those spells are created with your non-boosted good relics. So if you don't scout some of those you won't have as many relics to make spells with.