Where are all the players disappearing to?

[Darielle]

Just yesterday I was bragging on our Fellowship - we are up to 18 active members and only 5 inactive.
I get up this morning and discover we've "lost" one member. They've simply disappeared.
I gather they have gotten caught up in the Monday morning sweeps.
But I wish I had known more about this before I had to read the Forum.

And before someone tells me that we should have removed them before they were deleted because they had been inactive for so long let me say that our Fellowship is not run like many. We do not remove cities just because they are inactive for several months unless we need the space (and we've never needed the space until recently) Several of our members have taken time off for family or health reasons. We keep them until they have been gone 9-12 months. We try to run a no drama, no stress Fellowship and part of that includes being able to take a break and return to a place you know.
Most of us in the Fellowship are here to just enjoy the game and play at our own speed. We do have players that outgrow us, we know this is going to happen. We wish them well and let them know that if they are unhappy with what they find to check back.

As I reread this I realize that it sounds defensive and it is, though I meant it to be informative.
Those active in the Forums are generally those who play the game with more dedication than most. That's great and in fact the forums would not be worth a whole lot without your/their input. But some posts imply that there is a best or one way to play. There are many ways to play and none are the best, the worst, or the only.

I think I am done venting for awhile.
Thank you for listening!

I can understand why you might feel that way, but you should know the consequences of your choice. Not saying you can't have that choice ... it's yours to make. But without knowing the problems generated by keeping inactive members, you will wind up surprised when your best players leave you ... even the ones you think are really loyal.

Loyalty goes both ways. When an AM won't remove inactives and really work to fill those slots with active members, they are doing their best players a disservice. Their best players don't get the blueprints, the spire prizes, etc, that they deserve. When those players realize that, they may be up for a change even if they don't let you know it.

Recruiters look for fellowships with 5 or more inactives where you don't get a blueprint weekly. It makes you a target, especially if you have one or two players that SHOULD be getting a blueprint, based on their tourney scores. When someone comes along and tells them, "If you wish to earn a blueprint weekly and diamonds in the spire, please consider us," they may make the switch ... to your shock and dismay. You may regret not doing the job that you could have done in the first place ... remove members and find good ones for those slots, in order to keep those top players.

If you're just in this for fun and don't want to do the kind of work that other archmages and recruiters do to build a great fellowship, then that's fine (and I'm not being sarcastic ... I mean it.) If people just want a bit of casual play, they will join your group and they can be fun for a while. But a good player will never stay in them for very long unless they their real life is so busy they just don't care about getting the perks to which they could aspire. But most dedicated players want that pot at the end of the rainbow. If you don't choose to do the work that many archmages do in order to earn that title, then those best players absolutely will eventually leave, whether they seem happy to you or not.

I hope I don't sound like I'm picking on you because I'm not. I just want you to see what choices you have and the consequences of all choices. You may tell me to mind my own business, but the choices and consequences are the same no matter what.

Case in point: I happened to notice a neighbor who consistently got 4K in the tourney and his fellowship did only 5 chests weekly. It had 6 or 7 inactive players (yes, more than you, but not much more ... and his had 24 members, not 18). The other players were new or "so so" ... he was the best player. I mentioned to him that I have a spot open if he'd like to get weekly blueprints. He switched ... his archmage sent me a stunned letter asking me why I "stole" her best player and good friend. I didn't steal him ... he was not a slave that "belonged" to the owner, especially one who wasn't even trying to make the fellowship thrive, get new members ... you know, archmage work. The same people were inactive for months. I didn't steal him ... I rescued him. A few weeks later, the player I rescued told me, "I just want to thank you for inviting me to the fellowship. I was seriously thinking of just quitting without telling anyone, since I didn't think other fellowships could be much better. Boy was I wrong! This is a whole new game; now I'll never quit!" I was thrilled that he felt that way.

What good would he have done that other archmage if he had just quit without telling anyone why? Would that have helped her? Or was it better that she got a wake up call to know that she was going to lose her best players if she didn't change? I may have actually done her a favor, rather than him just quitting. But it's possible she just hates me without ever realizing that the buck stops with her. I don't know. It's not my problem. My job is to keep my fellowship members happy and fill slots with players who will contribute to the overall success of the team. That's all.

On the other hand, there are things I won't do. If I see a great player in a fairly new fellowship with few members and the AM is trying hard, heck no, I won't ask that one great player. I sit back and cheer them on, hoping they succeed. Likewise, if I see a fellowship that just had a tragedy or is in turmoil ... the AM just died, the mages are struggling to keep everyone together, etc, I'll say a silent prayer for their troubles and move on. There are absolutely fantastic players out there that I have never asked to join our fellowship, not because I can't sway them (I might) but because I'm not going to stab an archmage in the back who is really trying. But if I saw a fellowship where the same players are inactive for months, where one player is being cheated of their rightful blueprints, then yeah, I have no qualms whatsoever.

That's just the view from the other side of the fellowship pond.

 

[Ariel Greensleeves]

Beautifully said, by both of you. I'm curious as to how you judge when an AM is "really trying hard". From the little information available on Elvenstats, I would say its very hard to figure out the real story behind the black triangles.

I find myself in the position of de-facto AM in my FS (we have a committee with 2 mages who do most of the heavy lifting). I have received many recruiting messages and always find it flattering. In two cases I told the gold spire AM's that if they had players who couldn't quite succeed at that level to recommend them to our silver spire FS, and they have (although in both cases we missed catching them). Its a lot of work to find new members nowadays, and people seem to be very sensitive about invitations (its NOT poaching! content players are free to turn it down). We have had many members simply disappear, even after messages like "are you getting tired of playing? do you need help bc you are stuck? what can we do to make this more fun?" Most taper off participation and then just quit logging in one day. Once a good member simply stopped one day with no warning and I still worry about what happened to them in RL. Only 1 member has ever told us ahead of time that they wanted to quit and did it very gracefully (actually didn't quit, just moved to a different FS).

 

[Mrietha]

I can understand why you might feel that way, but you should know the consequences of your choice. Not saying you can't have that choice ... it's yours to make. But without knowing the problems generated by keeping inactive members, you will wind up surprised when your best players leave you ... even the ones you think are really loyal.

Loyalty goes both ways. When an AM won't remove inactives and really work to fill those slots with active members, they are doing their best players a disservice. Their best players don't get the blueprints, the spire prizes, etc, that they deserve. When those players realize that, they may be up for a change even if they don't let you know it.

Recruiters look for fellowships with 5 or more inactives where you don't get a blueprint weekly. It makes you a target, especially if you have one or two players that SHOULD be getting a blueprint, based on their tourney scores. When someone comes along and tells them, "If you wish to earn a blueprint weekly and diamonds in the spire, please consider us," they may make the switch ... to your shock and dismay. You may regret not doing the job that you could have done in the first place ... remove members and find good ones for those slots, in order to keep those top players.

If you're just in this for fun and don't want to do the kind of work that other archmages and recruiters do to build a great fellowship, then that's fine (and I'm not being sarcastic ... I mean it.) If people just want a bit of casual play, they will join your group and they can be fun for a while. But a good player will never stay in them for very long unless they their real life is so busy they just don't care about getting the perks to which they could aspire. But most dedicated players want that pot at the end of the rainbow. If you don't choose to do the work that many archmages do in order to earn that title, then those best players absolutely will eventually leave, whether they seem happy to you or not.

I hope I don't sound like I'm picking on you because I'm not. I just want you to see what choices you have and the consequences of all choices. You may tell me to mind my own business, but the choices and consequences are the same no matter what.

Case in point: I happened to notice a neighbor who consistently got 4K in the tourney and his fellowship did only 5 chests weekly. It had 6 or 7 inactive players (yes, more than you, but not much more ... and his had 24 members, not 18). The other players were new or "so so" ... he was the best player. I mentioned to him that I have a spot open if he'd like to get weekly blueprints. He switched ... his archmage sent me a stunned letter asking me why I "stole" her best player and good friend. I didn't steal him ... he was not a slave that "belonged" to the owner, especially one who wasn't even trying to make the fellowship thrive, get new members ... you know, archmage work. The same people were inactive for months. I didn't steal him ... I rescued him. A few weeks later, the player I rescued told me, "I just want to thank you for inviting me to the fellowship. I was seriously thinking of just quitting without telling anyone, since I didn't think other fellowships could be much better. Boy was I wrong! This is a whole new game; now I'll never quit!" I was thrilled that he felt that way.

What good would he have done that other archmage if he had just quit without telling anyone why? Would that have helped her? Or was it better that she got a wake up call to know that she was going to lose her best players if she didn't change? I may have actually done her a favor, rather than him just quitting. But it's possible she just hates me without ever realizing that the buck stops with her. I don't know. It's not my problem. My job is to keep my fellowship members happy and fill slots with players who will contribute to the overall success of the team. That's all.

On the other hand, there are things I won't do. If I see a great player in a fairly new fellowship with few members and the AM is trying hard, heck no, I won't ask that one great player. I sit back and cheer them on, hoping they succeed. Likewise, if I see a fellowship that just had a tragedy or is in turmoil ... the AM just died, the mages are struggling to keep everyone together, etc, I'll say a silent prayer for their troubles and move on. There are absolutely fantastic players out there that I have never asked to join our fellowship, not because I can't sway them (I might) but because I'm not going to stab an archmage in the back who is really trying. But if I saw a fellowship where the same players are inactive for months, where one player is being cheated of their rightful blueprints, then yeah, I have no qualms whatsoever.

That's just the view from the other side of the fellowship pond.

Darielle
You are absolutely right.
I fully understand the consequences, And have experienced them.
But we understand if someone leaves, we regret losing them but that's ok! No hard feelings toward them or the the Fellowship that offered them a home better suited to their playing style.

I've seen the issue from both sides.
My Fellowship in Beta was dying, the Archmage was no longer playing and no one, including me wanted to step-up. A conversation on the Beta Forum led me to a Fellowship that suits me. No real requirements, no recriminations, and yet it is very successful. I now have Bluprints, every week. And I get to just play!
Here its different. I've been with this Fellowship for a long time and until recently its been stagnate. Our Archmage had been gone along time. There is a core group of us that have been together a while, and we've just been happy to play at our own pace. I recently took on the Archmage position. Do I really want it - No. But then neither does anyone else. None of us, currently, are looking to push ourselves a whole lot. Will that change? Possibly, but right now if you ask, and I have, we're all pretty content. If a Fellowship were to come along like I belong to in Beta, would we lose some members? I wouldn't be surprised. This is the kind of Fellowship I'd like to see us grow into.

Some of us just want to play Elvenar simply. We're not in a hurry to finish a chapter, and we may not fully understand how to use an Ancient Wonder or the most recent Event building. While we love diamonds, blueprints, and other goodies we just don't want to put in the effort necessary to play the game at a level that guarantees these. We know this about ourselves. And it is good for us!


Just a side note on trying to grow a Fellwoship:
I have had terrible luck trying to recruit experienced players. I do invite the new cities, and cities without Fellowships that are my neighbors. This has been a great way for us to grow.

 

[Kadhrin]

I would love to see stats on what chapters people are in when they quit. (Yes, I know Inno is never going to talk about stats like that.)
I am betting there's a bump at orcs, and another one at traders. And another at whatever chapter the first tech block happens in, and players are suddenly "Wait, what do I do with all of these KPs?" and the game starts pivoting to having more focus on AWs.

 

[Porcinus]

I didnt know there were Fellowship sweep stakes. What do we win?
If your members are disappearing, they may have gone to 25 Characters for the free donuts

[MOD EDIT] Link removed

 

[Silly Bubbles]

And before someone tells me that we should have removed them before they were deleted because they had been inactive for so long let me say that our Fellowship is not run like many. We do not remove cities just because they are inactive for several months unless we need the space (and we've never needed the space until recently) Several of our members have taken time off for family or health reasons. We keep them until they have been gone 9-12 months. We try to run a no drama, no stress Fellowship and part of that includes being able to take a break and return to a place you know.
Most of us in the Fellowship are here to just enjoy the game and play at our own speed. We do have players that outgrow us, we know this is going to happen. We wish them well and let them know that if they are unhappy with what they find to check back.

The most important thing is that it works for you, that's all that matters.

 

[SimplyNoble]

I have a seccond baby city that is parked in a "dead" fellowship. I used to have 2 small ones and the other one was in a quiet slow playing FS but still had some active people. It got deleted because I failed to keep it up. Felt bad for vanishing on them but as it turns out I am not cut out to play three cities, maybe not even two. They were the sort to keep inactive cities for a year or more. I try to remember to log into the baby once a week jsut to collect some things reset them and cary on. That will hopefully keep it alive until I decide to either develop it more or eventually let it go. Maybe let your players know that if they are on a long break they need to log in at least once a week (not actually sure what the minimum is) in order to not vanish on you.

 

[Darielle]

Beautifully said, by both of you. I'm curious as to how you judge when an AM is "really trying hard". From the little information available on Elvenstats, I would say its very hard to figure out the real story behind the black triangles.

I know it's a pain, but I keep a list of all the problem fellowships below my level that might have good recruits. I do it every 2 months, whether or not I have an empty slot. I click on a lot of fellowships quickly in elvenstats (usually below my fellowship's level) ... most just get a quick glance and I pass on them. I cull maybe 25-30 problem fellowships with good players to put on my list. In every problem fellowship, I click on the archmage and find out their average tourney score and rank, and write that on my list. I have lists dated every two months for the past year at least. It takes me a little over an hour every 2 months. But it's one way to insure that I have zero problems recruiting.

When I have an open slot, I just look at my two most recent lists. I zero in on the fellowships that are on both lists (usually it's the same ones that are problematic from one list to the next, so that includes maybe 20-25 fellowships. I go back to Elvenstats and check out both the fellowship and the archmage currently. If the fellowship still has problems, I check the archmage. If the archmage has done diddly squat in that time, they aren't trying to raise their score and help their team. If the same people who were awol last time are still awol, they aren't trying to recruit either. If the AM's 4-week tourney average is still dismal and hasn't improved, and their deserving players are not getting a blueprint, then that tells me they aren't trying.

From this, I pick my 2 or 3 fellowships to target and ask one player from each, normally. (I have taken 2 from a fellowship, but that's not the norm because I'm not trying to hollow out anyone.) I've never gone more than a week with an empty slot except when I was on vacation or had an emergency and couldn't recruit. My fellowship has zero problems and no current black triangles. But yeah, it's a pain and it takes work, but less work than you think for a top 30 fellowship.

 

[Henroo]

Beautifully said, by both of you. I'm curious as to how you judge when an AM is "really trying hard". From the little information available on Elvenstats, I would say its very hard to figure out the real story behind the black triangles.

The black triangles are fairly easy to figure out. Elvenstats has 2 criteria to put a black triangle beside a player's name: 1. there has been no change to their player score for 2 consecutive weeks and 2. they have had no tournament score for 2 consecutive weeks. Both must happen to get the black triangle.
Now as far as the "real story behind the black triangles" that might be more complicated. I don't think a 2 week absence means a player has quit the game. There are numerous real life reasons a player might be absent for a few weeks. And it is also very possible that a player has communicated they have real life issues going on to their fellowship and that their FS is holding their spot even though they are temporarily inactive.