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    Your Elvenar Team

Improve/fix cross tier trades

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
I agree that the ratio's are off. I agree that they could be changed to reflect the actual cost of production. But I disagree that there should be any ratios at all. The "value" of the resource is in the measure of the one valuing the resource, in life as in any game. To peg it's value to some cost structure is not pegging it to the price. In other words, price reflects market value if it's allowed to float, cost reflects production value. Since production value is stable (relatively) it is easy to dictate a ratio of trade. But it does not therefore respond well to fluctuations in the perceived value of the resource. And the perceived value is what drives trade, not the cost.

One example: when a tournament is finished there is usually a shortage of the most needed resource for that tournament. In other words, it is probable that, at that time, the value of that resource is higher than the ratio set by the system. Recovery of that resource via trade takes longer as the production rate does not change because there is no reason for a player to add more capacity and no incentive for a player holding that resource to sell it off at a profit (as there is little to no profit in doing so). Nor is there reason for any player to stockpile ahead of anticipated shortages. In my opinion the trading actions of the game are unrealistic -- i.e. do not reflect the reality of how humans trade in "real life."

There are, of course, reasons for this. Perhaps the devs don't want trading to be flexible. I suspect the wholesaler function would cease to be very useful if one could trade based upon perceived value rather than computed cost ratios. That may mean less profit and more volatility in trading -- complete with the attendant attempts to "corner" the market (unlikely to happen as the range of trading partners is too small).

So in the end since you won't see an free market adopted any time soon, I vote for a change of ratios to better reflect the actual costs. At least that can be done.

AJ
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
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Ashrem

Oh Wise One

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Please, please, Someone who has the dev's ears, get them to look at this.
Long long ago I shared similar results with @Marindor to no avail.
Perhaps @Xelenia @Fairy Dust or @Ælfwine will take an interest:)

Edit: If they ever do fix the star ratings, there should also be a range so that offers of 100 for 99 don't show up as 3 star:rolleyes:
 
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Mykan

Oh Wise One
You are all making an assumption that it is broken. The game is balanced around those ratios and it effects more than just the trader. Production and I am sure tech costs and such are all functions of the ratios. The game and its mechanics has to be set around something and they have chosen the cost value and a ratio as that mechanic. Altering to a different trading ratio would have far reaching effects some that might be highly unwanted by players not to mention huge time for devs when there are other jobs they can do (visits for browsers, broken shard limits, etc. etc.)

The altered ratios that people suggest are a different view on value and people are welcome to post those values. The biggest issue you really face is stigma from other players and a lack of decent filters making it hard to find trades you want amongst those you don't. The player base can't even come up with consensus regarding trades and their values (cause in-game they keep being offered and excepted).

So in the end since you won't see an free market adopted any time soon, I vote for a change of ratios to better reflect the actual costs. At least that can be done.
The limit on free market trade is more by the players than by Inno. Players have a stigma with 0/1 star trades and not too many people are willing to place 3 star trades for the same effect. The star ratio isn't the limiting factor the trading cap is x4 of the 2 star ratio. So moving from one tier to the next you can trade those goods as 1 plank for 1 scrolls but not for 1 elixir. Inno has left quite some room for market trading and fluctuations while placing some protection to stop values getting too far off balance.

The fight your really up against is asking players to let the value of goods float around base on perceived value at the time. Good luck with that :p:rolleyes:, comparatively Inno is practically compliant with our requests.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
You are all making an assumption that it is broken. The game is balanced around those ratios and it effects more than just the trader. Production and I am sure tech costs and such are all functions of the ratios. The game and its mechanics has to be set around something and they have chosen the cost value and a ratio as that mechanic. Altering to a different trading ratio would have far reaching effects some that might be highly unwanted by players not to mention huge time for devs when there are other jobs they can do (visits for browsers, broken shard limits, etc. etc.)

The game being "balanced around those ratios" is an assumption in itself. "Balanced" may mean you think that play is somehow balanced between various groups or types of players and thus, in some way, more "fair." My view is that it is inherently "unbalanced" if it does not reflect how players usually respond to trades. Most trades are done within a range of commonly perceive value and that value fluctuates according to market conditions. Unrestricted trade may effect more than trade, but that doesn't mean the effects will be detrimental. Nor do the "mechanics [have] to be set around something" when it comes to a free market trade scenario. The "cost value" was something the devs did set up, but why? And does it make the game more profitable than if they choose the free market approach? Did they think of it that way? I don't know. I suspect they felt it would be more profitable and/or make the game more or less fair by slowing down the "pay to win" crowd somehow. But I really don't know.

As for the "huge time for devs" when it comes to programming, I doubt it. They could make the ratios much, much wider (and thus simulate a free market) or they could re-write it so that the code doesn't look for anything and just allows whatever trade offered to be offered as is. Since the trade board usually has, at most, 100 trades listed, even sorting them might not be necessary --though perhaps desirable, I must admit.

The altered ratios that people suggest are a different view on value and people are welcome to post those values. The biggest issue you really face is stigma from other players and a lack of decent filters making it hard to find trades you want amongst those you don't. The player base can't even come up with consensus regarding trades and their values (cause in-game they keep being offered and excepted).

That the player base can't even come up with with consensus regarding trades" is not surprising since the value of anything is perceived, not absolute. They may do the math to figure out the cost of production, but when there is no marble to be found the cost is irrelevant when you are trying to finish a quest before a deadline. In the end players are not discovering the value, they are assigning value based upon their current sense of it. Ratios set by the production costs are discovering a formula to account for the cost of things, not their value. Free trade fluctuates according the age old formulation of Adam Smith: supply and demand. In this there is an opportunity for the game to become more complex as it allows for actual profit in trading.

The sorting of the current trade board for a player is already done. The amounts are pretty much secondary to the type of things offered, the star levels and if the trader has been "discovered." Star levels could be used to reveal profit perhaps but wouldn't be necessary and could be dropped. The job of figuring out what trades would offer the most profit would be the players responsibility.

The limit on free market trade is more by the players than by Inno. Players have a stigma with 0/1 star trades and not too many people are willing to place 3 star trades for the same effect. The star ratio isn't the limiting factor the trading cap is x4 of the 2 star ratio. So moving from one tier to the next you can trade those goods as 1 plank for 1 scrolls but not for 1 elixir. Inno has left quite some room for market trading and fluctuations while placing some protection to stop values getting too far off balance.

The idea that any resource could bet "too far off balance" is exactly the problem. If you mean that the game is "out of balance" because a free market system of trade will give an unfair advantage to some players but not others I'm wondering what criteria you have for making that claim. If all players can take advantage of an open trade system then all players can profit or lose according to their abilities. This is not like using diamonds which are restricted to those who have the cash to purchase them. Yes, you can effect the trade system indirectly with diamonds if you spend wildly to amass a lot of coins (to spend at the wholesaler). But other than that I see no real "imbalance" in allowing everyone to trade as they desire.

The range of market trading is limited, as you noted, and you also note that the "players have a stigma with 0/1 star trades," and I agree. But since you've admitted that it is the players who determine the actual ratio's used (meaning the range of 'acceptable' trades), why have the ratios at all? The only reason to have them is that in times of shortage some players may be desperate enough to actually pay a lot more for this or that resource and in doing so make something "imbalanced" in some way. I'm not sure what that way might be but it's not in the actual trade board. The desire of a person to sell and purchase is an opportunity to meet the needs of the players. Let's look at an example of how the ratios could restrict trade and thus the enjoyment of the game by those of us who thrive in an open trade environment.

Example: Let's suppose everybody needs marble badly. It's in short supply. You need 20,000k marble for some important project, and you need it now! I offer you 20,000 marble for 100,000 steel which you have in super abundance 1,000,000 let's say. The ratio I offer is 5:1 -- a greater than 4:1 ratio. In a free market game we would trade and both of us would be happy. We got what we wanted. But in this game we are not allowed to make the trade. Since I value my marble at a 5:1 ratio to steel I won't be offering it at below market any time soon. You might want the marble and be willing to pay the 5:1 ratio, but the game does not allow it so you won't be buying it unless somebody else has 20,000 and is willing to take 4:1 for it. Now here's the kicker. If there is nobody willing to offer it to you because nobody has the 20,000 you need, you lose. And if there is a person who is willing to offer it for the 4:1 ratio or less then you wouldn't purchase it from me anyway. Posting it at 5:1 is only effective if there is a buyer willing to pay 5:1. In this game most players are not willing to pay 0/1 star because the perceived value is not in line with that sort of trade. So even if you allow a greater ratio -- or no ratio -- it is unlikely the trade will move much out of that ratio anyway. Again, so why have it?

On the other hand, there are times, I believe, where players would pay the 5:1 or greater ratios. And those are the times where a smart trader can "make a killing" thus enhancing the fun for that player. Remember, no player is forced to pay those higher rates and if they do so it's because they value the resource that much. Free markets are just as free to walk away from a sale as to make it.


The fight your really up against is asking players to let the value of goods float around base on perceived value at the time. Good luck with that :p:rolleyes:, comparatively Inno is practically compliant with our requests.

Well, I've never been one to avoid expressing my opinion. I suspect the whole "don't let the value of goods float around" fear is a tempest in a teapot just as my "let free markets rule!" view would probably not have that big an impact on the game if adopted. But still, I do like to make more profitable trades.....

AJ
 

DeletedUser19914

Guest
As a new player, this is my take on it. I am a marble / crystal producer in Chapter 3 with no place to put a gem mine. My two crystal manufactories outproduce my four marble ones. If I look for a trade offering planks or steel (never mind the level) I don't see anything. Period.
My FS (Go ValHalla!) mates, especially the high level ones, pick up my requests for planks and steel that I post for trade for the elixir that my sled carousel is producing. Sometimes they are picked up by other players in my area. In a little while I will have enough production of crystals so that I can offer a T2 for T1 trade.
I put my trades up at levels where I am asking for slightly less than the amount recommended by the game, just to sweeten the pot a little. If I put them up at the ratios that some people are suggesting here, I would soon have no materials at all as I attempt to clear provinces by bribing because my fighters only win on occasion and building *_them_* up takes even longer than producing T1 materials.

What I would like to see is a true "stock exchange" in addition to the current system. I put up 100 elixir and say that I want planks. Other people can offer what number of planks they are willing to trade. I can take the best offer, or the one that is offered by a friend. After 24 (or 30) hours, my offer will be taken down if I have not accepted any trades. Then I can either offer fixed trades or go to the stock exchange and try that.

Just an idea. Not quite free market, but not totally constrained either.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
The game being "balanced around those ratios" is an assumption in itself. "Balanced" may mean you think that play is somehow balanced between various groups or types of players and thus, in some way, more "fair." My view is that it is inherently "unbalanced" if it does not reflect how players usually respond to trades.

By balanced go and look at the game mechanics and the maths. Its been too long since I did it, but what I refer to is not a feeling or a view but pure and simple maths in the game. The guessing part of what I said relates to how tech costs would be balanced compared to production, which Inno in previous communication have hinted at. Someone like @SoggyShorts who reads and watches everything :p may recall the sort of thing I refer to.

Nor do the "mechanics [have] to be set around something" when it comes to a free market trade scenario.

The point at the end of the day was players have a fair amount of scope for free trade now and they don't. One of the big reasons is the negative attitude of many players/fellowships to trades that are not 2/3 star. I know of several players when I played on EN servers who would have posted trades to take advantage of market demands had the player base not been so negative about it.

Since the trade board usually has, at most, 100 trades listed, even sorting them might not be necessary --though perhaps desirable, I must admit.

Umm try 500+. Granted 70 plus pages is not all the time but 50+ pages is not uncommon in my experience once you have sentient goods. Trying to find 10 trades amongst that many is painful to say the least. It will only get worse as more players reach each sentient good chapter and we have one more of those chapters to add more goods to the mix.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
Just going off my personal experiences of over two years of playing and trading, I have never had a problem with the 4 to 1 trades, whether up one tier or down one tier. I have never felt hurt or shorted by those trades, thought I do prefer 3 to 1 in general. I do not like the 16 to 1 trades, whether up or down the 2 tiers. Again, just going from my experiences, I think trades up or down 2 tiers should not be more than 10 to 1 to feel fair. I will generally not take them when they are 11 to 1 or worse unless I am desperate for the good being offered. I would be perfectly fine if they adjusted it to make the value for two stars to be 3 to 1 for one tier and 9 to 1 for two tiers for cross tier trades. This 2 to 1 and 5 to 1 that I see other people talking about feels way too generous.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Its been too long since I did it, but what I refer to is not a feeling or a view but pure and simple maths in the game. The guessing part of what I said relates to how tech costs would be balanced compared to production, which Inno in previous communication have hinted at. Someone like @SoggyShorts who reads and watches everything :p may recall the sort of thing I refer to.
There is certainly some fluctuation based on chapter because
1. Factory upgrades and efficiency per square does not go up for every tier in the same chapter.
2. Some chapters require a specific tier of goods for guest race productions
There is however never a point where 16:1 trades are sustainable.
You are all making an assumption that it is broken. The game is balanced around those ratios and it effects more than just the trader. Production and I am sure tech costs and such are all functions of the ratios.
This is probably the only part of this whole game where you and I completely disagree. When we asked the CMs about it they said that it was completely based off of supplies cost to produce and they admitted that time/space to produce those goods(and supplies) was not accounted for.
I firmly believe that this was simply an oversight and does not have any deeper implications for tech costs or any other aspect of the game.

Take a look at the Travelling merchant that you can now make in crafting.
When they were first released they had the same price. Only after I mockingly called them out on their 16:4:1 ratio regarding them did they tweak it, and still the TM3 costs 1.4x the TM1 . If the devs really think the ratio is right, shouldn't the TM3 cost 16x as much?
I mean should players craft 16 TM1's for 12,000 spell fragments and feel they got the same value as buying 1 TM3 for 1050?
Forget about the extra 90 squares needed...

Most importantly I don't need to be right about this.
The vast majority of players refuse 16:1 trades already, so it doesn't matter if the devs did, in fact, balance anything around such trades occurring because they aren't happening in any meaningful volume.
So while there are clear upsides to adjusting the ratios there really isn't a compelling argument for keeping them as is.

There is certainly some room for debate on what the fair ratio should be since 5:2:1 does not fit perfectly for every single chapter(but it is always much closer than 16:1)

I'd even be happy with @CrazyWizard 's suggestion to simply remove stars and order trades by % gain.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
This 2 to 1 and 5 to 1 that I see other people talking about feels way too generous.
Try out the links below. In the planks one which is making 16:1 start deleting plank factories and the residences etc that support them until the size of the plank farm is close enough to the elixir farm for you to feel it's fair- then check the report and see how many planks it is making. It's pretty nuts.
This city is making 1,550 Elixir
https://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/1293128b7ef74f329d492d38f46b2e16/
550 squares used

1,550 x 16 = 24,800

This city is making 24,864 planks
https://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/828d21a8474f419ca0d8b7171fb7d89d/
2440 squares used
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Mabey Soggy, but when they "fix" something, it is never a good thing in my experience!!! lol.
Okay okay, that counts as a good reason not to change it lol
If you are in a good FS you should be able to get the goods you need anyway!
It's not for me, I'm fine getting 99% of my trades from the FS, but having to explain it multiple times a year to new (potential)recruits is getting old. You'd think I could just copy&paste all of the old explanations, but I've found when it comes to math people need a little special guidance:oops:
 

Sir Squirrel

Artist EXTRAORDINAIRE and Buddy Fan Club member
I will agree with you there, a lot of players don't like math. lol. What I do instead of explaining math is explain how too many cross-tier trades ( tier 3 for tier 1) can mess up the balance of goods in the FS. I give an explanation like this : As the arch mage I try to recruit members to balance the goods boosts so everyone's trades through all tiers will be needed. Because of this if to many cross-tier trades are posted (tier 3 for tier1) it will throw the balance off and will eventually cause a shortage of certain goods. For example, a player that has marble for a boosted tier 1 good should trade that marble for steel and planks. If said player takes too many trades for tier 3 goods, they will be short marble for trading for steel and planks. They will then have to use cross-tier trades to get them goods and before long there is shortages of tier 1 goods throughout the FS. So cross-tier trades are fine in moderation if you are really short on goods, but are not sustainable if posted all the time. If you are low on certain goods, just ask and we will help you out.
Thanks for your understanding in this matter.
 
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DeletedUser19521

Guest
As a relatively new player, I didn't realize I was posting unfair 3 star trades until someone in the FS called them out. I too was looking at the gold and time commitments and not including space/pop in the equation. Inno should fix this as most new players don't come to the forums, don't realize all the limitations and never sit down to do the maths to realize until someone tells them that a three star trade really isn't a fair trade.
 
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