Improve/fix cross tier trades

[edeba]

It is well known that the trades for cross tier trades are set up to be "fair" only as far as coin and supply costs are considered.

There are various estimates of land costs, 5:1, 16:1...

An entirely land cost trade may not also be fair. I propose people vote for what they think would be the most fair ratio for programing into the cross tier trades.

What currently exists as "fair" is:

16 T1 : 1 T3
4 T1 : 1 T2
4 T2 : 1 T3

T1- tier1
T2- tier2
T3 - tier3

 

[Ashrem]

I'm not advanced enough to see what the mid-game is like, but it would be nice to have a table comparing each output-per-square for a max-level, boosted, manufacturer at the top of it's tech-zone (basic/advanced/superior) It's possible that info is already cataloged somewhere?

 

[SoggyShorts]

There is an entire thread floating around somewhere dedicated to the math on this.
As an example
If you factor in all of the space required to produce 10,000 Tier 1 goods at 16:4:1 including population workshops and culture you would need
920 squares for Level 15 steel/WS/res/central place
409 squares for Level 15 silk/WS/res/central place
211 squares for Level 15 gems/WS/res/central place

This gives us the ratio of 9:4:2 Which can be simplified to 5:2:1 or 4:2:1 and still be a huge improvement.

This was also shown to be accurate with other buildings, and levels (all level 6, all level 19 etc)

Spoiler: math

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xmfiF2bVSktPSyKdWcWYNkUvDDRp1C4OBPIEK_pZDOw/edit?usp=sharing

With the endless looping quests giving a greater benefit to T3 production I'd opt for a 4:2:1, but there's room for debate on that since there's still hope that they will fix those quests.

 

[WolfSinger]

When I post a cross-tier trade myself - I ignore what the computer says is fair and generally try to post the lowest ratio it will allow me to post - typically I post 1-1 or 1.5 to 1 for T1-T2 trades. 1000 scrolls for either 1000 or 1500 marble for example.

I think the lowest ratio I've gotten out of T3 for T1 is 4 to 1 - 1000 Dust for 1000 Marble for example. - I typically will NOT post T3 for T1 trades - I try to keep my cross tier trades to only one tier of difference.

This is because I dislike the ratio the system uses and don't pick up cross tier that the system considers fair - unless I'm really overstocked on what's being asked for.

 

[edeba]

Not enough votes to do much with...

 

[DeletedUser6083]

I voted for the first option, think that one is more fair because of the costs to get to tier 3 compared to tier 1 (kp, time, resources, space etc).

But this is not really relevant, the ingame trade gives you an indication but you can put lower, better offers np. When i started producing tier 3 it saved me by seling 100=1600 and people were still accepting my trades, so i manage to up my resources a bit for tournament, snow flurry event. Now i produce a lot more so lowered my offers offering 100 T3 for 1000 T1 or 350 T2 or 300 T2. Probably will end up with 100 T3 to 800 T1, that seems fairer.
Some people take my current offers and reposted at higher so they are trying to like make a profit, i am fine with it lol. I produce like 1500 T3/3h wile with almost triple the T1 manufacturers produce lower T1... So yea probably the correct answer is 100 T3=400 T1/200 T2 but just an opinion, i now avoid putting to much T3 for lower tier goods, just a bit to help if any one needs it in my ally.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

@SoggyShorts posted the ratio which is the factual ratio when everything is considered. This means the ratio the devs put into the tradingsystem is faulty (I guess basic arythmatic is too hard for them) and I for one would be glad if they set it to 9:3:1 which is much closer to reality.
Im a very active trader and have put up some additional tier 1 factories, to help some people out, but it just is not possible to trade tier 1 to tier 3 goods for a long period. And in my neighbourhood, even within one of my fellowships, I see more and more people going for (nearly) only tier 3 goods because it is the most efficient use of space and resources.

So I would much prefer the next update to change the ratio instead of adding yet more worthless stuff.

 

[Thistleknot]

I know a lot of people like to do cross-tier trading, but I usually avoid it. I am in the process of shifting from 6 tier-1, 3 tier-2, and 3 tier-3 manufactories to a 4/4/4 pattern. I was producing enough that I could regularly trade my surplus for the non-boosted goods that I needed. The need to negotiate in the tournaments a bit has left me at a slight deficit on T2 and T3 goods. But when I do trade, I tend to do 10 of each good in the 3000 for 3000 range.

 

[edeba]

I sent off a ticket requesting they fix this.

 

[mucksterme]

i've been seeing people complain about this since i first started lurking
i don't totally understand the problem
i haven't seen this plague of T3 cities you all keep talking about
but i do have a stupid question
if the cross tier trades are unfair as designed, why not just post trades you think are fair?
and conversely, why not just ignore trades you don't like?

seems to me, if all the whiners are right, supply and demand will out.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

i've been seeing people complain about this since i first started lurking
i don't totally understand the problem
i haven't seen this plague of T3 cities you all keep talking about
but i do have a stupid question
if the cross tier trades are unfair as designed, why not just post trades you think are fair?
and conversely, why not just ignore trades you don't like?

seems to me, if all the whiners are right, supply and demand will out.

Of course I can place trades in a more fair ratio, but that doesnt solve the problem. Besides, I have enough tier 1 factories to have stuff left over to trade so I do not need to post crosstier trades. I also used to clear all posted trades in my FS twice a day so that everyone would get the goods they wanted.
However, I stopped taking trades offering tier 3 goods for tier 1 goods. It just IS NOT possible to fullfill those since tier 1 factories produce less goods/square than tier 3 goods.

As for why people keep posting them and taking them, many FSs state that members may only post so called fair trades or better, so posting 20.000 tier 1 for 1.000 tier 3 is frowned upon. Not to mention that such trades will practically not be taken. But it will come to that point since more and more people seem to convert to nearly only tier3 cities.

As for ignoring them, for many months players have been asking for a filter on the trader so one can sort trades by starrating, which is simple enough to realise. But as with many simple, practical suggestions from players on improving the game, there is no reaction from innogames

 

[Sir Squirrel]

@mucksterme Very true, but since the trader says they are fair some players don't realize they are posting a trade that a lot of players see as unfair. If the trader was changed to reflect what most see as a fair trade it would be better than just ignoring the problem. That being said the Dev's don't usually care what we post here anyway, so we just vent our frustrations here, and try to find some cheese for our wine lol!!

 

[Ashrem]

I care every time I click on one accidentally because the interface was slow to update and I thought I was clicking the two star immediately above it.

 

[Shellizzie]

I agree it needs to be fixed. As an AM my members know my feeling's about cross trades which is that I will rarely pick them up and I discourage them! They are so lopsided that is just does not seem fair. I will pick up every trade our members post unless it is a cross tier. (Of course, if it is a new lower level member that is a different story.)

 

[DeletedUser3111]

my problem isnt in the production so much the spending.

I need more T1 than anything else by a huge margin. If I am doing tournaments or clearing provinces, they always take more level 1 than anything else (I guess I could fight instead hahahaha), and so I find myself running out of T1, but accumulating T3, even though I make far more T1 than T3 in general.

 

[edeba]

I so agree with this, the flipping around does mean that you end up accidentally accepting these things. The thing that I find really annoying is you didn't have enough of a good to do some trades so they are at the end, and you accept a trade so now you have enough of the stuff you are trying to get and one of these unbalanced trades for 10 times as many goods as each of the 10 trades you just accepted pops in and now the stuff you actually need is gone...

Fairer trades means these things are more likely to be accepted.

I care every time I click on one accidentally because the interface was slow to update and I thought I was clicking the two star immediately above it.

 

[FearlessDingleberry]

This discussion seems to be skewed to assume that everyone is well into the game in the higher levels. My experience is at lower levels, as you are able to produce tier 3 goods, the demand in all events and challenges is heavily skewed in requirement for tier 1 and tier 2 goods, so you end up with a small stockpile of tier 3 goods that you can't use and a deficit of lower tiered goods. It's very frustrating for higher level players saying they won't take cross tier trades because they aren't fair (they've seen the math). The math is not simple and it is all over the place depending on where you are in the game. If this attitude was created by higher level players deleting their tier 1 manufacturies to get an advantage, I can understand the attitude, but the math is not simple and costs are all over the place depending where you are in the game, what boosts you have, etc. If you have a 700% boost and I have 300, my cost is much higher than yours. Early in the game, the boosts for each tier appear to increase because of the time it takes to be able to get to manufacture the good.

What I don't get is when you have a low level player on page 3 in a high level fellowship who is producing goods across all tiers, why get on your high horse and not help them when a tournament strip mines their low level goods? I know I'm sitting on a huge pile of planks, but I'm not going to take your 100 Elixer for them even though it helps the fellowship, helps the lower player and does no real harm to me, but I'm not going to help them out because, "I don't do cross tier trades because they are unfair". I'm pretty sure these players have forgotten how hard it was to get those goods in their early days and the rules and ratios could have been completely different. If you're in my fellowship and I've got plenty of goods to spare and you are using them fairly to grow, then I'm going to trade with you.

 

[Calenmir]

I think most higher level players understand and remember what it was like to be new. I always take cross tier trades in all my FSs from folks lower than me (when I can). In my largest city that is everyone on page 3 and several on page 2. What is being complained about is those people who can offer up same tier goods, but choose not to. Perhaps they 'need the goods right now' (not that they really need them, they are just unwilling to wait). I had a member in my FS like that, but I'm the biggest steel producer and she figured out real fast I wasn't taking her trades. So if she was really in need, then suddenly she had enough of her tier 1 goods to make a trade. And I'm not talking small amounts - these were quite large amounts she wanted. So she had the goods, she just wasn't willing to part with them.

I don't really have anything against cross tier trades (I take them ALL THE TIME - even no FS trades (though I check their status first)), but I do have something against those that have figured out the imbalance and use it to their advantage. There are lots that do it. And this is part of the problem: taking those trades - because that makes those putting them up think they are ok in the long term. They aren't.

If you are advanced enough and you don't have enough of your same tier goods to make trades then you need to rethink what you have in your city or you need to rethink how fast you are progressing - if you are progressing so fast your factories can't keep up with your 'trade' needs, then slow down or suffer the consequences.

Within a FS it is up to that FS how to handle, but to expect outsiders to be tolerant of the constant cross tier trades and to grab cross tier trades if they aren't in your FS is expecting too much. I've checked a lot of those who do this regularly within my trader and I can assure you that abuse is rampant. Their trades sit for days.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@FearlessDingleberry
As long as your city is well balanced, I'll take your cross tier trades, or if you are in my FS of course.
The fact is that even with 700% boost it takes way more time, culture, space, and population to make 1600 planks than it does to make 100 gems with a 300% boost. A closer ratio factoring in time/space/pop/culture is 5:1, not 16:1

In the early chapters I recommend building 6-8 T1, 3-4 T2, and no more than 2 tier 3. (unless you are a big diamond spender and have loads of room, but even then the ratio is they same)
If I see a player running 4:4:4 or something similar before chapter 8 I'll help them out with some trades and advice, but if they insist on under producing T1 when they need it the most, they're on their own.

 

[FearlessDingleberry]

@FearlessDingleberry
As long as your city is well balanced, I'll take your cross tier trades, or if you are in my FS of course.
The fact is that even with 700% boost it takes way more time, culture, space, and population to make 1600 planks than it does to make 100 gems with a 300% boost. A closer ratio factoring in time/space/pop/culture is 5:1, not 16:1

In the early chapters I recommend building 6-8 T1, 3-4 T2, and no more than 2 tier 3. (unless you are a big diamond spender and have loads of room, but even then the ratio is they same)
If I see a player running 4:4:4 or something similar before chapter 8 I'll help them out with some trades and advice, but if they insist on under producing T1 when they need it the most, they're on their own.

Thanks for the tips. I've got 12/6/3 in production with the T1 at level 9 buildings and level 3 building in the other two as I enter chapter IV.

A large trade for me is 2000 Tier 1 goods to cover non-boosted goods. I usually am incapable of picking up a trade within my FS because I'm a hobbit in the land of the giants.

Most of my FS is fine with my occasional possibly too frequent 100 unit cross tier trades during a tournament without a word, but a couple make a lot of noise about this subject and will take a 0 star in-tier trade no problem, but leave a maxed out 3 star cross tier trade hanging because it's "unfair" because they saw the numbers in the somewhere in the forums, so I came to the forums looking for the numbers. This was particularly frustrating this week because the members that normally help me out were AFK this week when I hit a wall in the tourney.

Thanks for the responses