A basic guide to Ancient Wonders

[DeletedUser627]

At the very least, and Ancient Wonder will give you SOMEWHERE useful to stick your extra Knowledge Points, while you're waiting on the Coins/Supplies/Goods that you need to avoid spending Diamonds for research.

This is a wonderful illustration for us to clarify why we so often have different recommendations for playing.

If your city doesn't produce enough goods to satisfy Research activations (at pace with KP productions), I can see why you'd like Wonders. I imagine that sitting there waiting on goods - while KP's a-wasting, would be irritating.

That's not a scenario we see in our comparatively poorly-planned city designs. Through Section V, we progress through research at the pace of KP production, no waiting for missing goods. Yes, I've occasionally had to research 2 sections without activation, but not often. Generally, manufacturing-reliant cities produce sufficient goods to keep pace with the requirements of the research section. The exception to this rule is during Dwarven when copper is a hold up (which is why I recommended gathering Runes then).

No, you can't plan your way around it. The most basic dynamic in the game is that you'll need a ton of Culture at the start of each chapter, to boost the Coins and Supplies that you'll need for all of the new upgrades

And yet it's not a basic dynamic of the game - although I'll easily allow that it works for your game. Each chapter is different, and players have varying strategies for working through them.

**********************

Lastly, there you go again, abridging my remarks with the intent to misrepresent my meaning. I clearly stated that I was making personal opinions about Wonders implementation, but you opt to oh-so-subtly insinuate that I'm dogmatic and you're reasonable. Then you're off and running to the insult department with

If plumping up your score is your objective, regardless of the cost, then indeed the Ancient Wonders won't help you all that much

So should I reply with "If playing as little as possible is your objective - even to where one doesn't even have sufficient goods to activate completed research - then Ancient Wonders are perfect for you"? No, clearly not.

I made comments about the game itself - without making deprecating insinuations about any players. In fact I deferred to other possible styles in my comment. I believe you need to step up your Forum game, and sell us on the points you want to make. When they're good points, you won't need to depreciate the value of others' opinions.

And, given your demonstrated penchant for character assassination, I'd say that, in addition to your Explorer accomplishments, you're high on the Killer side. Not content with the value of your contributions, you have to destroy the validity of any other opinion.

 

[DeletedUser61]

unless they conduct their own research

Ahh but there's research and there's research.

• I'm not talking about how many workshops it takes to support your manufacturing, although that's certainly important information if you want to optimize your city.
• I'm talking about chasing down the algorithm that's being used to create vacancies and distribute immigrants
• Or the numerical analysis tools that are needed to suss out the underlying quadratic formulas for scouting costs. Stuff like {=LINEST(E2:E60,A2:A60^{1,2})} for example, which is an Excel array function.

abridging my remarks with the intent to misrepresent my meaning

I think your meanings are quite clear, and if anybody wants to reread the entire paragraph, in context, well that's why I've provided the linking reference.

• In a couple of my cities I have several of the combined Population + Culture buildings, and I'm never short of Goods.
• In few of my other cities I'm avoiding the combination buildings, because I want more Coins for scouting, and more houses means more upgrading means more Goods, and you can really get yourself into a dandy bind during the middle of a chapter, if you're trying to avoid overbuilding.

We have different agendas. I'm fine with that. There's no need to get all huffy about it.

 

[DeletedUser43]

• I'm not talking about how many workshops it takes to support your manufacturing, although that's certainly important information if you want to optimize your city.

• I'm talking about chasing down the algorithm that's being used to create vacancies and distribute immigrants, or the numerical analysis tools that are needed to suss out the underlying quadratic formulas for scouting costs.

• I'm interested in Excel vector functions, for example. Stuff like {=LINEST(E2:E60,A2:A60^{1,2})}

You can study astrophysics if you want to. This is a thread about Ancient Wonders and I am trying to be of use to people who want to know something about them.

I have never been waylayed in this game waiting for goods. In fact, I give away tons of goods to help all the people in my fellowship so we all grow together. That is one of the benefits of not building some of these wonders. I don't wait for coins or supplies either. Again, those are the benefits of not building many of these wonders. The only wonder up until the dwarven wonders that is gives you more than it costs is the Mountain Halls. The others cost you so many boosted relics that you produce fewer goods every time you have a production. Then, if you don't have tons of goods because you can't produce them, you can't get through some of the provinces. If you can't get through the provinces, you can't get more expansions. Without expansions, you can't build more factories to make more goods. If you use the space in your city for more residences and more workshops you get more coins and supplies every day and you have enough population to upgrade your factories.

Next I will discuss the fairy wonders.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Fairy Blooming Wonder:

25% wholesaler offer improvement

This won't be of any use to a very advanced player? By the time you get here, you should have cleared hundreds of provinces and you should have a very advanced fellowship. When you have to clear provinces it takes tens of thousands of goods to do so per sector in one province. You need 250,000 goods to get through the whole province. You certainly aren't going to be buying those goods 500 at a time. I don't care if they remove the cost of the wholesaler completely, it doesn't matter. The only time an advanced player (someone who has progressed far enough to have researched this tech) buys goods from the wholesaler is when they have extra coins or supplies to toss away.

40% reduced trade fee

Once again, in order to be an advanced player, you have to have a very good trading system in place. You have likely been playing this game for 6 months to a year by now. With the new province requirements, you couldn't even get to this level if you wanted to without having at more than 180 neighbors. Also, you will have had to make trades in the thousands of goods regularly. Yes, if the game is totally broken and you don't have a fellowship and you are stuck in a desert wasteland of zero neighbors, then this may be of some use to you....but only if you got super lucky and that one person you needed to trade with was just outside your neighborhood. Most worlds have trading posts where you can go to make the large trades you need if you absolutely have to, so this is totally superfluous no matter how reduced the trader fee is.


5% Portal production boost

The portal production for all races gets boosted. Ok...yeah....that is nice. But it doesn't work on the dwarven portal because you are past the dwarves by the time you research this. It doesn't work on the fairies for the same reason. It will work on the next race and that might be of some use. However, in order to build this wonder you will need to research tons of provinces, and give away tons of KP trying to get these runes (you will have a one in 6 chance). By the time you have built this wonder, you will likely be through the end of all future races. But if not, and the game stalls again for months and months it is somewhere to stick that KP.

But don't forget what you forgo when you build a wonder....you lose a lot of space and you lose boosted relics. That will cost you goods every production for the end of time. Is it worth the cost for maybe that production boost if you build it before the new races are here? That will be for you to decide. I know it takes a long to slog through the new races tech, but what do you get if you rush through it? You get less game to play. You get to wait for months and months for something new. It isn't so bad getting through the tech more slowly.

AS WITH ALL WONDERS, ONCE BUILT, YOU WILL NEVER EVER EVER GET BACK THOSE BOOSTED RELICS. So decide well before you choose. Even if you delete it, your production level is lowered for all time.

(All percentages of boosts are for a level 1 wonder and will go up as you upgrade your wonder, but no matter what the percentages are, the principles above remain the same.)

 

[DeletedUser61]

I have never been waylayed in this game waiting for goods. In fact, I give away tons of goods to help all the people in my fellowship so we all grow together. That is one of the benefits of not building some of these wonders.

The search function still works.

That means I can't negotiate nearly as much because I don't have the goods to do so. I can't fight because I can't train any troops. All my supplies are for making the 20% of goods I am making and to do a couple of upgrades. No clearing provinces means no expansions. Or maybe one every few months?

I see absolutely no point in rushing to the end of every chapter, just so you can sit there and wait for several weeks.

Now, I'll TOTALLY agree with you that the Ancient Wonders aren't much fun yet, because we're still lacking the support tools that we need for tactical contributions. That's why my https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?posts/13337/ thread is languishing at the moment, but I'll revive it 30 seconds after the developers provide us with the tools that we need, to whit,

• Knowledge Point award packets (which you can use tactically)
• A History tab on each Ancient Wonder (so that contributors can verify who did what)
• The Knowledge Points contributed to your Ancient Wonders count as part of your global score. (Your OWN contributed KPs would count, of course, but a reciprocal agreement would also award a Rune Shard per AW level and a 10% KPs dividend)

So yeah, I'm going to object when you're raining on the Ancient Wonders, because I think they'll be the brightest stars in our firmament.

 

[DeletedUser627]

I see absolutely no point in rushing to the end of every chapter, just so you can sit there and wait for several weeks.[/QUOTE

Your math skills are far superior to mine, so I know there must be some reason you're overlooking the obvious.

Given a constant length of time between points A and B (A being the end of a research release and B being the release of the next research) -
Given a variable rate of goods production, with X being the beginning rate and Y being the ending rate
Multiplied by possible increase in units of goods manufactories between points A and B
Thus, it's true that the sooner one begins producing goods at rate Y, the greater the total production will be.

So the "point" of getting to the end of tech is that we have weeks to accumulate goods at the higher rate, weeks where daily KP can go to leveling a Wonder, then the stockpile of goods can purchase KP for the next Research or for Wonder.


What I would really appreciate seeing from you is an analysis of the benefits of the Lighthouse or Bulwark or Monastery. You speak of processes of gaining them - but we've yet to see a clear picture of why we should want them. If they're worth having, there should be a logical or mathematical demonstration to be made. Most of us haven't seen it, so it's the type of problem right up your alley.

 

[DeletedUser61]

What I would really appreciate seeing from you is an analysis of the benefits of the Lighthouse or Bulwark or Monastery.

It's actually scary simple. If you regard the Ancient Wonders as just one more fancy box in the Tech Tree, then they make a lot more sense.

• They're gated with Rune Shards
• They require a LOT of Knowledge Points, to level, and some incidental Relics.
• They require NO daily maintenance
• They make everything ELSE easier, so the sooner you get them, the easier the REMAINDER of the game will be. They're perfect for casual players who are in no hurry.

In my Beta city

• I've acquired 138 sectors, all with auto-fight
• I have 100 empty squares that I'm saving for more AWs and what have you
• I've built all of the Day and Night Farms that I intend to build
• I have one Premium expansion that I haven't activated as yet
• I have 3 Marble, 3 Crystal, and 2 Elixir, and I've never had more than that
• Were I to buy Knowledge Points, they would cost me 80 Marble, 20 Crystal, or 220 Elixir
• I have all 4 Ancient Wonders

In my US1 city

• I've acquired 141 sectors, all with auto-fight
• I have a half dozen empty squares
• I've built all of the Day and Night Farms that I intend to build
• I have 1 Premium and 9 Provincial expansions that I haven't activated as yet
• I have 2 Steel, 2 Crystal, and 2 Elixir, and I've never had more than that
• Were I to buy Knowledge Points, they would cost me 80 Marble, 2 Crystal, 30 Elixir
• I have all 4 Ancient Wonders

So looping back your question, which is entirely fair, my Ancient Wonders have ZERO ongoing variable costs. Once my upfront fixed costs are depreciated, then I have ongoing benefits that cost me NOTHING, which is typical of the boxes in the Technology tree.

So how high is up?? The Ancient Wonders allow me to utilize space that would otherwise remain empty, and if I'm waiting for Coins/Supplies/Goods then I divert my Knowledge Points to my Ancient Wonders, for whatever benefits they might provide.

To be entirely fair, rank is not anywhere on my list of priorities. I don't like chasing rank because doing so would force me to jump through too many hoops.

 

[DeletedUser43]

then I have ongoing benefits that cost me NOTHING

But you aren't counting the opportunity costs. The opportunity cost of a choice is the value of the best alternative forgone where, given limited resources, a choice needs to be made between several mutually exclusive alternatives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

In a city building game, space is premium. This is true in real life too. Using that real estate for one thing is a cost. It is an ongoing cost. You cannot build anything else there while the wonders are there. What are you forgoing because you don't have that space? What you forgo is a cost. If you would have put a few houses up, then the cost of the wonder is all those coins you aren't getting from houses every day. If you would have used that space for workshops, then you are negative all those supplies. Let's say you could have 100 coins every day from the houses you would have used that space for, then those wonders are costing you 100 coins per day.

Using boosted relics to build those wonders is a cost. You can never get that fixed cost back and it costs you with every single production of goods. Let's say you make 110 goods without a wonder, and then you use your boosted relics and now you only produce 100 goods. That means that every production you make from here on out that wonder is costing you 10 goods.

Now, I only used those numbers as an example. In the game, the real numbers are much higher. You miss out on tens of thousands of coins per if you would have put houses there. You miss out on thousands and thousands of supplies.

Regarding your quoting me out of context....it is totally out of context. It had to do with a "rebalancing" where the rules of the game changed without notice. I adapted and continued to thrive, but the game was much better and much more fun before those changes.

 

[DeletedUser61]

The opportunity cost of a choice is the value of the best alternative forgone where, given limited resources, a choice needs to be made between several mutually exclusive alternatives.

I completely agree. My essential point is that, with 9 unused provincial expansion I already HAVE everything that I need or want. I don't need nor want any more Culture, Workers, Coins, Supplies, Goods, nor Troops.

Depreciation is always taken over a fixed period. During that time your benefits are offset by your depreciating fixed costs. But once you reach that point, the additional benefits cost you nothing.

So Ancient Wonders do a very nice job of enhancing what I DO have and need. And on the next go around, because of my constantly improving Ancient Wonders, I'll need fewer additional objects than I would have otherwise needed.

There are many different ways to express the concept, but the standard paradigm for evaluating investments is their Cost/Benefit ratio. My costs are much lower than yours, and yet our cites both provide the same benefits with the single exception of Rank, which we value differently.

 

[DeletedUser627]

...our cites both provide the same benefits with the single exception of Rank, which we value differently.

That statement is the crux of the matter. Inno created the ranking criteria. And the ranking criteria often contraindicates other options or requirements for city building - per Inno's total control of the game scenario. They create and maintain a ranking system, then present us with scenarios which conflict the value system they provide.

Every interested player is trying to resolve this dichotomy:

Your solution is to ignore rank and apply real-world efficiency ratios to your game.
Mine is to pursue rank and apply grid maximization to my game.​

Neither of these choices is invalid. You do an exceptional job with your own game, and no one is inclined to be critical with your unique choice.

But you make opinion statements about everything, influence opinions, and don't hesitate to criticize others' at will. So I feel okay to point out some differences:

You're playing through Elvenar - but you've invented your own game separate from any standard of measure established by Inno. How creative of you - truly. You could start a "KJ variant of Elvenar" and have great fun leading your accolytes into this alternate reality version of "Elvenar superimposed onto real world production theories". Like a non-competitive sports league.
Most of the rest of us are attempting to play both through Elvenar and in Elvenar - you know, where there's this little box on the left where Inno updates scores and let's you know how you're progressing within the field.

Those of us trying to play real Elvenar are frequently frustrated by the developers decisions which make it difficult to play the game they invented (yes, that scoring thing again). We vent our frustrations here in the Forums, and talk about game developments as they relate to the real game of Elvenar.
But not you - you maintain this veneer of respect toward Inno and direct your satire and criticism toward players. Yet "actions speaking louder than words", you contemptuously dismissed the scoring aspect of the game like it doesn't even exist. Unstated is your position, "what does Inno know - this scoring mechanism is artificial and shouldn't exist"...and all your posts addressing fellow players reflect this attitude. Score is irrelevant, and any player with a city larger than yours is less of a player than you.
​

I'm not going to take your "Inno is great" line at face value any more. It seems what you really mean is "Inno is great because they created a set of algorithms / programming I can use to play with the standard paradigm for evaluating investments (Cost/Benefit ratio), and since the KJ way is so great surely everyone should ignore Inno's criteria and play by mine."

 

[DeletedUser61]

the ranking criteria often contraindicates other options or requirements for city building - per Inno's total control of the game scenario.

I would simply refer you back to our earlier discussion regarding the concepts offered by http://mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm

• Your infatuation with rank is entirely normal for the Achiever class. You're a bit too convinced that it's the "right" way to play the game, and your class is often on the ragged edge of burning out, but that's also typical of the Achiever class.
• My disregard of rank is entirely normal for the Explorer class. How high is up??
• The Socializers think that being an Achiever would be far too much work, and they haven't a clue why Explorers even exist. I strongly suspect that the Ancient Wonders and Spells are there mostly to soften the edges for the Socializer class.
• The Killers, or Control Freaks in our venue, want to be admired for their prowess, and they enjoy dominating other players. Mostly they pick on the weaker Socializers, and if their victims get all upset about it, or adore them, then so much the better. While Control Freaks won't ever admit it to anybody else, they're worried that they don't have the chops to be either an Achiever or an Explorer, so they avoid direct confrontations with those classes.

So, I beg of you, when you're promoting strategies that are INTENDED to maximize one's score, then say so. Don't take the naive further step of implying that it's the only "sensible" way to play the game.

For myself, I just want enough elbow room to poke around in various obscure areas that nobody else even cares about. I need to be "good enough" at playing the game to validate my experiments, and publishing my results is the only way to attract other Explorers. Playing a tightly constrained game, running controlled experiments if you will, is HOW I find the seams and edges. For my purposes, overwhelming the game is anathema.

So the takeaway is that there are FOUR distinct ways to enjoy the game, and a healthy game NEEDS all four classes of players. The balance point will vary from game to game, but each of those classes needs to be supported and their interests need to be accommodated.

 

[DeletedUser43]

So, I beg of you, when you're promoting strategies that are INTENDED to maximize one's score, then say so. Don't take the naive further step of implying that it's the only "sensible" way to play the game.

Back at you! How about you say that all your opinions on the game have nothing to do with growing a big city or with score? I still don't have a clue what you are trying to do, but as long as you are happy with your city, then that is great. Do whatever you want. But you don't tell people you are dancing to the beat of your own drummer. Instead, you make blanket statements such as "don't don't contribute to an ancient wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points." That statement only goes towards your playing style. 99% of all your advice actively harms anyone who is trying to grow their city. That is my only issue with your comments. People think that because you talk a lot on the forums, you are some kind of guru to be followed and then they get harmed over and over in what their goals were. I can't tell you how many people come to me hopelessly confused because they followed your advice on something.

The thing is, doing well in this game, advancing in rank, and at the very least growing a city to use as much space as possible is how MOST players play. So your comments mislead most people. You want the smallest city possible. Ok. Then say that. Make it clear what YOUR goals are. The rest of us have the game goals that we are following.

Not to say that either approach is better. It isn't. This is a game and you can have all houses if you want and nothing but. That is great too. Just tell people!

Finally, there are many more classes of people than you list. People aren't that simple. You are simply wrong about that.

(It's like we are playing monopoly and your advice is to never buy any properties except the baltic and Mediterranean because your goal is to collect the least amount of rent as possible. Ok....but when people ask if they should buy Illinois avenue and you tell them no, you are giving them horrific advice...unless you tell them upfront what your goals are.)

 

[DeletedUser61]

In an odd sort of way, Achievers aren't actually very competitive. If they find some new way to "beat the game" then they'll happily share it with each other.

don't don't contribute to an ancient wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points

Lacking a prior agreement for a reciprocal exchange, waiting for the owner is FAR BETTER than just being a dandelion. You'll not only be supporting an owner who is serious about their Ancient Wonders, but their contributions will increase the dividends for the other contributors. Non-owners who contribute 1/3rd of the points will thereby get 1/2 of the awards, and that's 150% of the normal payout.

How about you say that all your opinions on the game have nothing to do with growing a big city or with score?

One can't get much clearer than

running controlled experiments if you will, is HOW I find the seams and edges. For my purposes, overwhelming the game is anathema.

there are many more classes of people than you list. People aren't that simple

People aren't that complicated either, but I don't really care if there are 4 categories, 14 categories, or a continuum. The essential notion is that the game NEEDS, and needs to accommodate, players with a variety of playing styles.

The developers have provided a very simple ranking metric.

1. Utilized Culture plus
2. Employed Workers plus
3. Knowledge Points contributed to your own Ancient Wonders (soon™)

It actually baffles me that anybody can seriously believe that maximizing such a simple score would lead to a well-balanced city. As a point of illustration, you indicated that you needed to adjust accordingly when the developers gimped the declinable quests that were allowing folks to run up their scores. It logically follows that developers would have provided MORE declinable quests if running up your score were the end all and be all, so rank is NOT the ultimate goal.

Spoiler: Muf-Muf

For the past few months, we have observed our quest system and we have come to the conclusion that it does not work as intended. We have found that skipping quests leads to massive problems in the game's behavior and its balance. What we found is that a lot of our players skip a lot of quests in order to get a single quest that is either already completed, or very easy to complete, in order to gain coins and supplies as a quick reward. Quests should not be the main way to receive coins and supplies, but they are rather meant to provide guidance through the game, and to teach you how to develop your own economy in the best way possible. This is why we will limit the number of times you can decline quests.

https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/changes-in-declining-quests.3277/

Once a player has enough Coins/Supplies/Goods to keep up with the game, then additional rank provides no advantage whatever. As a matter of fact, running on the bleeding edge is often quite inconvenient, witness the current fuss about the "huge" Magic Academy, whose main sin is that it doesn't contribute anything to rank.

Takeaway: The developers provided a ranking system because the Achiever class LIKES to have that sort of metric, as a simple basis for comparing various strategies. None of the other classes care very much about rank.

 

[DeletedUser43]

the current fuss about the "huge" Magic Academy, whose main sin is that it doesn't contribute anything to rank.

No. The fuss about it is that it is a useless building that provides a tiny amount of extra goods and coins and supplies and if you built another couple of houses in the space you'd make far more coins than that stupid academy gives you. Plus, you don't need relics to make coin productions. Or, you could put a workshop or two there, same thing. Endless supplies with no relics needed.

None of the other classes care very much about rank.

This is the kind of comment that I object to the most. Feel free to speak about yourself. You don't know jack about other people and your presumption that you do is rude as hell. People aren't game pieces. They aren't IN a class. They are multifaceted multi directional and multi goal orientated. This same kind of narrow minded thinking runs rampant among the most prejudice people. You can't put people in boxes. They don't fit.

"One can't get much clearer than
↑
running controlled experiments if you will, is HOW I find the seams and edges. For my purposes, overwhelming the game is anathema."

Funny how you can never say something about yourself that doesn't include a nasty comment about other people. Maybe I should say, for my purposes, being a pseudo intellectual sycophant bête noir would simply run against the grain.

 

[DeletedUser61]

Feel free to speak about yourself. You don't know jack about other people and your presumption that you do is rude as hell. People aren't game pieces.

Please reread Bartle's article at http://mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm.
He does a nice job of justifying his Classes, and why each Class regards Rank as they do.

There's also the Duck Test. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

The thing is, doing well in this game, advancing in rank, and at the very least growing a city to use as much space as possible is how MOST players play. So your comments mislead most people.

If you boil it down, your argument is that you're unique, and that MOST players are just like you. You're not a special snowflake, nor am I.

 

[DeletedUser627]

The developers have provided a very simple ranking metric.

1. Utilized Culture plus
2. Employed Workers plus
3. Knowledge Points contributed to your own Ancient Wonders (soon™)

It actually baffles me that anybody can seriously believe that maximizing such a simple score would lead to a well-balanced city.

First, where have developers indicated that scoring for Wonders will consist of only one's own KP contributed to one's own Wonders? I admit that it's conceivable that they'd make such a decision...but at this point it would simply be impossible to reverse implement. They don't have counters running to tabulate how we've been spending our KP to date. Plus, in terms of future strategy, it would virtually invalidate players' willingness to contribute to other players' Wonders.


As to "well-balanced city", your usage of the term is misapplied. Right now, we have three instruments of measure from Inno: score, ability to progress through Research without impediment, and ability to progress through storyline Quests. So long as a player is accomplishing these three given objectives, their individual strategy is sufficiently balanced.

And so what if a player chooses not to have balance? If he chooses aesthetics over progress, and arranges his city without regard for any of the three measurements?

And so what if a player chooses to ignore one of the measures provided by the developers? Some are considering abandoning the storyline Quests.

And so what if you have ignored the Score measure? I'd prefer to give your choice the same respect as given to every other player. You wouldn't find me here writing, "It actually baffles me that anybody can seriously believe that building 14 Workshops to support 6 manufacturies is indicator of a well-balanced city".

It logically follows that developers would have provided MORE declinable quests if running up your score were the end all and be all, so rank is NOT the ultimate goal

Invalid. Developers have introduced Snail Palaces, enabling players to increase scores by 50% in just a few days. Clearly the devs have no problem with players "running up scores" - their entire marketing strategy relies upon making the game sufficiently tedious that players pay for more/faster. It's more likely to conclude that the reduction of declinable quests is solely due to the fact that we didn't have to pay to progress - an abomination in the world of online "free" gaming.

****************************************

One of the links you recently posted is an Inno page celebrating the fact that women are now being drawn to Elvenar - that 50% of the users are female. While I don't agree with gender profiling, there are some marketing demographics that apply in this situation. Inno may be aware of the demographics change, but they've not adapted to the realities.

Inno's sales strategy relies on creating frustration, knowing that a certain percentage of their customers will succumb and pay. This strategy is less effective with female buyers. Consider the fashion industry as a case study: Formerly, the industry created tension: it mandated trends by narrowing fashion choices, creating frustrations that forced purchases. Today, the industry offers a broad range of fashion choices, encouraging purchases by catering to individual taste/age/preference.

You can suggest that Bobbykitty and I are critical of Inno because we're Achievers. It's true that our personal playing style is Achiever...but our Forum contributions aren't based on gamer profiles. It's more likely that our opinions are influenced as being of the female player demographic. We're accustomed to a new reality - one where companies competing for our discretionary income actually cater to our preferences.

Another of your referenced links suggests that Inno divides into studios, where each studio works on an aspect of multiple games. If this is correct, it's revealing. From this player's perspective: the studio responsible for game design gets an A+ for designing a game which isn't a repeat of previous games. The studio responsible for art gets an A for initial offerings, but a B since the results to date are inconsistent. The studio responsible for marketing/sales gets an F: they're trying to repeat the FoE algorithm without considering the new demographic.

 

[DeletedUser61]

First, where have developers indicated that scoring for Wonders will consist of only one's own KP contributed to one's own Wonders?

Spoiler: Muf-Muf

We will implement a system where Ancient Wonders will also give points for the rankings, as they currently give none. The score will be based on the number of Knowledge Points used to upgrade them. We hope to offer you this in one of our next updates, but we don't have a solid date for this yet.

https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...es-version-0-35-spells.4043/page-6#post-30744

Nobody has ever said that it's a double own+own. I'm presuming that all of the points contributed to Ancient Wonders that you own, including your own contributions, will directly contribute to your own score. That's the way it works in FoE, and it makes sense.

Otherwise, we seem to be in agreement about the general shape of the game.

growing a city to use as much space as possible is how MOST players play.

This is a cheap shot, but I have to live up to my reputation.
I checked my rank on US1: Arendyll, and I'm accidently ranked at 848 of 71,554. That's the 98.8th percentile.
So as a first approximation, the 1.2% of the players who are ranked higher than me probably care about their score. That's a far cry from "most."

To agree with your fundamental point, most players will indeed fill up whatever space they have available. But where it gets interesting/questionable is when you ALREADY have enough space to reach the end of the current game, but you elect to keep on expanding in order to run up your score.

• I have 10 unused expansions that I don't even need for Chapter VII
• I have four Ancient Wonders
• I have three Armories
• I have a Magic Academy
• I'm accidently ranked in the top 2%

 

[DeletedUser43]

Out of 71,554 players, 16,000 of them don't have any score at all, yet you include them in your statistics. Congrats, you are doing better than they are.

Out of 71,554 players, 50,000 of them have a score at or under 505 points. Beating all of them, are you?

If you are going to compare yourself to others, then you'd have to compare to other people who have been playing as long as you and see where you fall there. But, I don't know why you'd want to do that. If you want to define the term "most" that I used, then compare you city to people who have cleared all the expansions you have and see where you stand against them. I am going to bet there are very FEW players who are sitting on 10 expansions. So yes, MOST people are using that space. In fact, I will put money on it. Real money. Want to bet?

Frankly, the fact that you are rated in the top 2% shows how few people are actually playing this game and how few stick around. A full 2/3 of all players here don't even have a level 1 tier 1 factory yet. Basically, this is a ghost town.

As I've said before, I don't care if you have one house in your city. It is YOUR city. Play this game the way you want to. If you want to make pretty patterns with your houses that would be cool too. If you want to spell words with your streets, that too would be very interesting. This is a city building game and it should be full of creative cities.

 

[DeletedUser1122]

Spoiler: Muf-Muf

https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...es-version-0-35-spells.4043/page-6#post-30744

Nobody has ever said that it's a double own+own. I'm presuming that all of the points contributed to Ancient Wonders that you own, including your own contributions, will directly contribute to your own score. That's the way it works in FoE, and it makes sense.

Love the ideal. Punishment! Excellent!
Whatta way to free up server space.
Sleuth announcements that effect how to play the game in Beta 1.
Here in Beta 2 nada.
The way you developers/moderators provide information about the game lacks
Your willingness to go backwards with rule changes is terrible.

 

[DeletedUser61]

Sleuth announcements that effect how to play the game in Beta 1.

If you snooze you lose. Keeping track of the tidbits is why many of us participate in Beta.

To the point, scoring by leveling Ancient Wonders has NOT been introduced in Elvenar as yet, not even in Beta.

Equally to the point, it HAS been introduced and implemented in FoE, with surprisingly little fuss and bother.

Spoiler: FoE

https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/new-ranking.11983/

And the concept makes sense, because once you've hit the "end of the tech tree" wall, there's nowhere else to tuck your Knowledge Points, nor any other way to increase your score.