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    Your Elvenar Team

Trade cycling

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SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
I'd really like it if we could get past the trader fee (non)issue. The simple fact is that if you had been a close neighbour who posted small fair trades and taken my trades without me having to wait 3 days I would have grown.
It's not a non-issue.
If I post a tiny circle trade it will be seen by maybe 1 or 2 small cities who can take it without a fee. It will also be seen by 20-30 medium sized ones who can take it without fee and 4 or 5 big players.
The same goes for posts made by those 2 little guys near me, so it makes WAY more sense for them to post than for me.
Does your fellowship have trading quotas? How do you control your trader now? I really can't see how placing a few extra trades would trash your trader.
We control our trader by simply opening it up, checking the FS only box and clicking accept until it's blank.
Then uncheck the box and take whatever we consider fair from the world.

@Darielle pointed out several issues for most of which your solution seems to be reducing the idea down from flooding out the sharks to placing 1-2 trades. The problem is that having a tiny fraction of the playerbase such as us place just a few trades with the hope that they will be seen, needed, and taken by the tiny fraction of players around us who are targetted is not likely to have an impact.

If each one of us pledged to search our neighborhood once a [week] for a new player to reach out to I think it would have a far greater impact.
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
there are plenty of fellowships that have NO requirements you won't get a ten chest FS without having a pretty big city but there are other FS
Actually, there are 10 chest groups happy to take small cities. I'm in a 10-chest group that routinely takes small cities; our current smallest member is only 8k points, but we have many under 50k. These groups *are* harder to find, for sure, but if you look for a bit and make a good case to the AM, they do exist.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
there are plenty of fellowships that have NO requirements you won't get a ten chest FS without having a pretty big city but there are other FS
You can absolutely get into a 10 chest FS with a small city but they do have performance requirements.

I have 3 cities my largest is a chapter 5 and all three are in amazing 10 chest FSs.

Getting into a gold spire FS was a bit more challenging and had more to do with timing than anything else.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
It's only a virtue if you only wish to engage in the subject on a cursory level and not to actually analyze what others have said. The method I generally use is the Socratic method. Socrates, a pretty noted philosopher, didn't think it unwise to discuss at length the meaning of words. Perhaps my target audience are those who actually want to do the work of thinking a thing through and not those who are less inclined to do because we have created a society where memes, mantra's and pithy sayings have been substituted for actual logical and rational discussion.

The real problem her is that I have a lot to say and say it. I am not repetitive very often and while I could probably reduce the word count by about 10-20 percent, what I have to say is said in an organized and systematic fashion -- a hallmark of good rhetoric according the canons of the Romans.

And I might remind everyone that the US was founded by men who though nothing of writing 50 pages of dense text and expected the nation to read what they had written. Truth doesn't always hang low on the tree. Sometimes you have to get the ladders out and climb.




The analysis I provided was not a misunderstanding. It was an explication of what you said. Simply denying it's accuracy is not proving it to be inaccurate. Does your measure of fairness, as presented, rest on the idea that 1:1 ratio within a tier is "fair?" As I've pointed out, it's a logical equivalency. Denying analysis without pointing out it's flaws is not, therefore, proving it to be wrong.

A few pages? I doubt it. I gave you a version of your statement that avoided the implication that 1:1 trades are always fair. It's only a few words longer than your original. The problem was not that you wrote what you wrote but that you didn't consider the subject well enough to realize the objections and deal with them in an concise and easy manner before you posted. To argue will one has to put themselves int he place of their interlocutor and consider his/her reference point. Once you do that you will find you will have to use a few more words to qualify claims, usually not pages as you imply.

I'm not worried about the .0001 or so legal objections, I'm more concerned with the easily seen problems with using a 1:1 ratio as a measure of fairness. The distinction is not about words but about concepts. You have a concept that says that fairness is based upon the cost of productions, but I argue that fairness is perceived value by the participants. These are not words, but concepts. You seem to think the problem is I didn't get (but should have), your point. I got your point. I analyzed your point. I came to the conclusion that it's wrong. I then presented, with reasons, evidence and examples of how the basis of your definition of fairness is flawed. In other words, I analyzed not your performance but the concepts underlying your ideas. How about we focus not upon my performance but upon the idea that cost of production is a a good measure of fairness in the trade?

AND

Actually, there are four types:

1. Those who can extrapolate data from limited information but have too little information to know if the extrapolated data is valid or not.
2. Those who expect everybody to do the work of extrapolation and thus to repeat the work they could have done for everybody, but didn't.
3. Those who often fail to give enough information and expect everybody to do the work of extrapolating the right data from the limited information and then get upset when they don't.
4. Those who do the extrapolating for you so that the right data is extrapolated from the right information because they took the time to think about what they were saying and word the claim in anticipation of general observations that might not fit the claim they are making.

Many people are in the third category but have a difficult time because everybody wants the fourth category to be easy, short, and full of low hanging fruit. Sadly, knowledge may be a very large tree with the best fruit requiring a lot of good ladders and a lot of hard work.




I once had my house painted. I was a dark grey when they finished when I asked them for "off white." Was I "splitting hairs" since neither of us defined what "off white" might have meant? You buy a car and you want "good gas mileage." You get and find it gets 3 gallons to the mile. You take it back and the guy argues that you wanted "good gas mileage," and he gave you a car with "good gas mileage." Is that splitting hairs?

"Unfair" is, as Soggy pointed out, a "moral" measurement. Soggy measures "unfair" trades by their production costs. I measure them by the perceived value of those enacting the trade. Totally different concepts. Not a single hair here to be split. It's not "red apples or less red apples" it's apples and oranges. Trivializing it only shows your own analysis of the question is faulty.

AJ
I don't think this is the right platform for a verbose manifesto but that is just my opinion, carry on as I knew you would anyway. TL:DR
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
We're talking about the fact that there are big traders who do take smaller trades and those who don't. Some big players post trades/ play every day, some trade and play 3 or 4 times a week. The big neighbours I had on Khelonaar didn't pick up my trades and I couldn't take theirs. My trades were ignored until I messaged one of them and asked nicely and even then they only did it when they played...which was every 2 or 3 days.

The thing is you're presenting an either/or scenario and if you'd really thought it through you'd see there is no method a/b. I didn't once advocate for small player to forego posting their own trades yet that has been thrown back as a complaint time and time again.

If the big traders in your neighborhood will not bother to take your small trades, then why would they bother to post small trades on the off chance that you might need them? That doesn't quite make sense to me. The "good" neighbors are already taking all small trades for the sake of their smaller neighbors, and so there is no point in offering what others may or may not need and to see those trades sit there and pile up. Better to take trades. I'm just wondering who is your target audience for this idea, and how does it actually help?

You say that doing only one cycle per day will not harm small neighbors, because they'll still be on a big player's notification list. If the big player has a lot of notifications, they might easily go over the 10-page limit in an hour or two, and even a few trades might push someone off the list. Perhaps two or three very close neighbors would like a smorgasbord of choices, but the posting neighbor would already take their trades ... with zero notifications on their feed. Why isn't that better in the long run? It's easier to take trades than it is to post them. Again, who is your target audience for this idea? Big players who aren't taking trades? Do you see them as likely prospects to do this when they won't even do something easier? Or are you aiming this at big players who already take all trades? And if so, then how would this help?

You also say that the trader fee is a non-issue. Yes, it is an issue. If smaller players post trades, they do not pay a fee when I pick them up, and neither do I. If I post a trade for them, it is very likely that they will pay a fee, unless they are extremely close to me.

You have implied that I am not trying to understand your side of the equation, but understanding is a two-way street. You dismiss my concerns as "extreme" with a "one size fits all" answer to simply do one cycle and voila, all problems are solved. But these are valid scenarios that do not fit a blanket answer, and I don't consider them extreme.

I'm not trying to irritate you or cause you to feel defensive, and I'm sorry if I have. We can remain comrades in our quest for improvement, and I promise I have nothing against you and am glad you brought this up so we can openly debate. All I'm trying to say is that I think the only ones who would do this are already helping their neighbors. The small players in areas where big players won't pick up trades are not going to see any benefit. The basic premise, therefore, is "who is the target audience for this idea"?
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
I gave you a version of your statement that avoided the implication that 1:1 trades are always fair.
This is your problem. You took it one way that no one else really did.

I (and others) said 1:1 is fair.
No one said "1:1 is always fair, without any exceptions under any circumstances, and there is no way to measure it aside from the one we are using"

Most rational people understand that there are exceptions to most things. Maybe there's some who need you to point it out to them, but I doubt it. That's why we don't need to add disclaimers to everything before we say it. We can rely on people to get the gist of it.

When I said 1:1 is fair you could have immediately added
"1:1 is generally considered fair, with some exceptions"
And I woulda said "Yeah, that's what I meant" Possibly with the added snark of "obviously" and an eyeroll.
and we could move on returning to the actual point of the thread. Nothing required your level of pedantic scrutiny.

I refuse to start each and every sentence with "Generally speaking..." it's a waste of my time and usually the readers. Enough people are smart enough that it's unnecessary.
 

Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper, Keys to the Gems
In my opinion, the #1 problem with suggestions, (in many threads), is that too many players are claiming to be advocating for new players while completely ignoring and/or dismissing the input of new players. Hi!
Hi Alram :)
I am at work so sorry to make you wait.
The answer to your suggestion is, it depends on many factors.
What realm are you in?
Did you start on the rim?
Are there developed players around you?
Did you start in a dead zone and get moved at the end of the first week?
If you moved, did you move to another area on the rim?
 

Alram

Flippers just flip
Hi Alram :)
I am at work so sorry to make you wait. -- I am fine waiting.
The answer to your suggestion is, it depenas on many factors. --Which of my suggestions are you responding to?
What realm are you in?- I have no idea which realm. Fely Us3, I am guessing.
Did you start on the rim? I don't know.
Are there developed players around you? -- I don't know.
Did you start in a dead zone and get moved at the first week? I did get moved in my first week.
If you moved, did you move to another area on the rim?--I don't know.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
Firstly, thank you for your thoughtful response. I've built 16 cities in 8 worlds over 2 cities. I may be less experienced but the sheer quantity of builds means I understand the teething problems quite well.

"Method A says that big players should flood the trader with tiny trades, so that little guys can get them.. The positives are that VERY FEW small players can get those trades at a fair price, since the vast majority won't have more than 50 provinces discovered and they'll mostly have traders fees".

In every world I have had at least one big player I could have traded with without a fee. Their trades were too big for me and most of them never took my trades. In my experience my trades were most often taken by similar sized cities.

"If crowding out the sharks is your goal, this will just feed the hungry sharks".
If I was a shark and I could spend half an hour grabbing a bunch of 25k trades to recycle OR sit all day waiting to poach every small trade on offer I know what I'd do.
"If there are no sharks, then there is no other positive but one ... that a very few small guys will have a smorgasbord to choose from in the trader. Nice for them."
Yes, nice for them to be able to build, upgrade, grow and eventually help other small cities to grow. I'm seeing flourishing full neighbourhoods, not wastelands of dead cities.

"2. The trader is SO FULL of these little trades that neighbors and fs have to go through page after page after page after page of them in order to get anything they want in the numbers that they need. My fellowship members sometimes trade for half a million goods ... in one transaction. They will not appreciate having to go through 50 pages just to see what they need in the quantities they require."
Just post one extra cycle instead of 10 or 20 then.

"3. The trades that LITTLE GUYS put up in the trader are rendered invisible. There are now 50 pages of trades and those trades wait longer to be picked up because there are so many pages to go through. Big players that would normally have scooped up those little trades in a heartbeat are now being told to leave trades for new players ... and heck, going through every name on 50 pages to check for new players would waste every moment of time they have to play the game. Therefore, the little players' trades get lost in the shuffle."

There's no need to check for new players. Community trades can be 'marked' like we've done - trades under 100 that end in a 9 are community trades so ignore. Works a treat. And if people posted smaller trades then the little guys could just grab those instead of posting their own trades if they wanted. And I assume that's where the sharks are getting their business from...those that need stuff now.

"4. More little players get lost in the shuffle if they happen upon my city and gift me. I would normally gift them back, but since my notifications are now flooded with small trades, I can no longer see that they've gifted me and they don't get the needed help back."
This is a valid concern. Limiting community trades to one cycle per day should prevent any inundation.

"5. Since I no longer get notifications of gifts, my bigger neighbors don't get gifted back either. We've lost camaraderie and reciprocation that we normally enjoy."
Solved above, only post one cycle.

"6. Without notifications, I must now go and physically visit .... load load load .... every player that MIGHT have gifted me, in the desire not to alienate anyone, without being sure to hit each one, and then get out of the city .... load load load.... and return to the map".
...as above

"7. The game has been rendered so time consuming that big players ... the ones that can help little players the most .... now get frustrated and leave the game."

To be fair 4,5, 6, 7 are all the same problem extrapolated to appear as a worst case scenario of epic proportions. This problem is completely manageable IF you actually wanted to manage the problem.

"Now let's try Method B, which calls for all little players to post trades for their boosts and wait for them to be picked up. The ONLY negative to this method is that if no one is out there to pick up the trade, the trades will sit there for days. Well, guess what? If no one is out there to pick up the trade, then NO ONE is there to POST TRADES within their circle. So what's the point of having all these big players post trades if they are nowhere near the small player who needs help?"

It would really help if the problem wasn't view in extremes. We aren't talking about "no one". We're talking about the fact that there are big traders who do take smaller trades and those who don't. Some big players post trades/ play every day, some trade and play 3 or 4 times a week. The big neighbours I had on Khelonaar didn't pick up my trades and I couldn't take theirs. My trades were ignored until I messaged one of them and asked nicely and even then they only did it when they played...which was every 2 or 3 days.

The thing is you're presenting an either/or scenario and if you'd really thought it through you'd see there is no method a/b. I didn't once advocate for small player to forego posting their own trades yet that has been thrown back as a complaint time and time again.
Excellent point, they are using "the sky is falling" scenarios to discount everything!
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
If the big traders in your neighborhood will not bother to take your small trades, then why would they bother to post small trades on the off chance that you might need them? That doesn't quite make sense to me. The "good" neighbors are already taking all small trades for the sake of their smaller neighbors, and so there is no point in offering what others may or may not need and to see those trades sit there and pile up. Better to take trades. I'm just wondering who is your target audience for this idea, and how does it actually help?

You say that doing only one cycle per day will not harm small neighbors, because they'll still be on a big player's notification list. If the big player has a lot of notifications, they might easily go over the 10-page limit in an hour or two, and even a few trades might push someone off the list. Perhaps two or three very close neighbors would like a smorgasbord of choices, but the posting neighbor would already take their trades ... with zero notifications on their feed. Why isn't that better in the long run? It's easier to take trades than it is to post them. Again, who is your target audience for this idea? Big players who aren't taking trades? Do you see them as likely prospects to do this when they won't even do something easier? Or are you aiming this at big players who already take all trades? And if so, then how would this help?

You also say that the trader fee is a non-issue. Yes, it is an issue. If smaller players post trades, they do not pay a fee when I pick them up, and neither do I. If I post a trade for them, it is very likely that they will pay a fee, unless they are extremely close to me.

You have implied that I am not trying to understand your side of the equation, but understanding is a two-way street. You dismiss my concerns as "extreme" with a "one size fits all" answer to simply do one cycle and voila, all problems are solved. But these are valid scenarios that do not fit a blanket answer, and I don't consider them extreme.

I'm not trying to irritate you or cause you to feel defensive, and I'm sorry if I have. We can remain comrades in our quest for improvement, and I promise I have nothing against you and am glad you brought this up so we can openly debate. All I'm trying to say is that I think the only ones who would do this are already helping their neighbors. The small players in areas where big players won't pick up trades are not going to see any benefit. The basic premise, therefore, is "who is the target audience for this idea"?
I think we need a discussion, splitting hairs. on the meaning of the word "extreme"! LOL
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
I think this is a dead thread at this point. Everyone has retreated to their corners and is not willing to entertain any ideas that don't confirm their bias on the issue. Of course, this is just my opinion, save the attacks for the next idea to pop up in a new thread!
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Everyone has retreated to there corners and is not willing to entertain any ideas that don't confirm their bias on the issue.
It certainly does feel that way, but I think there's still a chance for this to morph into something useful.
There have been alternatives suggested in this thread that we could expand upon and discuss. It doesn't have to be just about the OP idea of trade cycles since the actual point was to help small players and the method is secondary to that. (this is why I stand by the unimportance of the word/definition of "unfair". It really doesn't matter.)
 

Clusseau

Active Member
I have access to the trades of Many X More new players, than new players who can access mine.

Taking their trades is the best help i can offer, and i believe it is good for the game (=good for me) if i do so.
Trades 5k or less.... Mostly, they dont matter to me if they are Unfair, or in the wrong direction... somebody wants them, and the amounts are of no consequence to me at all.... so i take A Lot of them, when i see them.

A related note: ive contacted Many early Players... (*many*)... to say Welcome, let me know if you need anything.
The nearly-Unanimous reply is Nothing at all.

On the other hand- Ive gotten many "Thank you" notes from people who's trades ive taken...
Some, as if ive saved their game or something.... but, so little cost to me, i have no idea who they are....

I think "taking Trades" is a good practice, and occasionally "Looking For them" is even better.
 
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