Ancient Wonders?

[SoggyShorts]

A noob can only begin to imagine the magnitude...

Indeed, and @Enevhar Aldarion and I are an excellent example here:

My MH max is 46m and just a few chapters later his is 100m.
It's pretty safe to say that his income is also close to 100% higher than mine.
For my KP cost to double would require the daily purchase of 15 KP with coins for a whole year
I can neither purchase 15 KP per day nor would it take me a year to move to his chapter.

Therefore buying KP remains sustainable.

 

[Henroo]

Indeed, and @Enevhar Aldarion and I are an excellent example here:

My MH max is 46m and just a few chapters later his is 100m.
It's pretty safe to say that his income is also close to 100% higher than mine.
For my KP cost to double would require the daily purchase of 15 KP with coins for a whole year
I can neither purchase 15 KP per day nor would it take me a year to move to his chapter.

Therefore buying KP remains sustainable.

In addition to buying KPs with gold, you can buy them with goods. Does the same scale apply to there? I know I am making more goods than I use and that my stockpiles are steadily growing. Never considered the notion of swapping massive amounts of goods for KP till now...

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

As I've mentioned in other threads, I'm a new player taking my time in chapter 5. So far I'm enjoying the spire and the tourneys (after thinking I'd play to make beautiful cities). I'm currently bringing all my manufactories up to max capacity, while leveling up housing for population and figuring out how to keep culture high. So far things seem balanced enough for what I want, but I'm 100% puzzled about ancient wonders.

They . . . confuse me? I currently have a level 9 (I think offhand) Golden Abyss, as well as a low level Endless Excavation. I have no complaints about either one, but I honestly don't understand why the GA is considered a good one and I'm uncertain if I should stick with the EE.

I built the GA because I read online that it was a good one and at some point the EE seemed like a good idea, but I dunno. I have no complaints about either one, but I honestly don't understand why the GA is considered a good one and I'm uncertain if I should stick with the EE.

As someone who is taking her time and so far is doing well with my city, in the spire and in tourneys should i stick with the EE? (I'm assuming folks will recommend keeping the GA.) Or would Needles be better than the EE, for someone who auto fights until catering is easier? Or something else?

Thoughts? Thanks!

Golden abyss is bad in low chapters but it becomes better and better as the game progresses and you useage of workers in your city increases.
Where in low chapters it might be worse or similar to a residence, in high level chapters that 9sq building might become as powerfull as 100+sq of magic residences or 200+sq of normal residences.

ToS= Good low chapters but bad in the long term.
EE = Good low chapters but bad in the long term./
Needles = Barely usefull in low chapters as you lack production time, but very powerfull in the long term if you intend active participation in tournaments / spire.
Martial Monestary / Sanctuary = Powerfull if you intend active participation in tournamnts / spire.
Crystal lighthouse = Not bad neither good.
Watchtower Ruines = Very powerfull in high level chapters
Throne = kinda pointless
Bulwark = Somewhat nessesary if you are a fighter as it allows you longer training time in a small space compared to armouries
Mountain Halls = neither good not bad.
Prosperity towers = Very good, especially once you need all those supplies (improved spells) for your unit production
Trader = pointless since the introduction of Portal profits
Hero's Forge = bad in the long term
Shrooms = probebly the most important building to create long production times in your unit production buildings

getting bored so here a few of the remaining best buildings.
Flying academy superb just like needles of you fight
Dragon Abbey = Instant mana is awesome and improved mage units also
Timewarp: the building that makes tournaments a lot of fun

 

[SoggyShorts]

you can buy them with goods. Does the same scale apply to there?

This falls under my "rainy day fund in the desert".
I've never seriously bought KP with goods just in case I needed to buy some in an emergency that will never come.
The scale isn't quite the same though, or at least it's way harder to judge since players can have any number of factories and varying production times.

I honestly am quite inefficient with my goods. When lazy catering the tournament I'll do an extra province twice to gain more 5 KP which will cost me 10x as much as buying the KP directly.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

@Henroo

Live Chapter 18 after about 4 1/2 years of playing:

Beta Chapter 13 after almost exactly a year of playing:

Main difference is the Live city took at least twice as long to get to chapter 13 because time boosters, AW Knowledge, and portal profits did not exist yet. So a lot more goods were spent on KP in those first 13 chapters. I also did a lot less in the tournaments in my Live city before about chapter 12, so a lot less free KP and a lot more bought. Many times, if I had everything but the KP for a research, I would just buy the KP and complete the research right away, especially if it was the first research of a new chapter.

 

[bluebonnetgirl]

I might get stomped on for this....

No clue what chapter you are in, but for anyone below chapter 8...


It is really difficult to run a low level city off Pop/Cult buildings. My advice to you is visit elvenarchitect and start compairing your buildings per square performance. If it is not better than a house per square, get rid of it! Go for coins!

Elven Architect

Tools & tables for all things Elvenar.

www.elvenarchitect.com

Thank you. I’ll study that some more. I’m in Elementals in one world and just started Sorcerers in the other.

 

[bluebonnetgirl]

In one winter event it is often possible to get ~20 daily prizes so if there is one that offers better pop/sq a player should be able to replace at least half of their residences after such an event. You probably shouldn't do more than half until much later though (see below)

I'm basically a pure auto-fighter*, so I need very little coin.
Doing my FS visits and collecting from my Golden Abyss + some event buildings like the phoenix gives me more than enough coins- in fact I'm still using them to buy KP every single day.
If you negotiate/cater/convince more than "rarely" then I would not recommend following my example unless you are willing to visit your neighbors for coins, and even then keeping at least a handful of magic residences would probably be best.

*sometimes when ultra-lazy I cater an entire tournament and if coins are an issue I can just pop a coin rain of which I have boatloads since I craft and win from spire without otherwise ever spending except on quests.

I only auto-fight for the first 10 provinces, so between the spire and other tourney province, I chew through the coins.

 

[DeletedUser26243]

Golden abyss is bad in low chapters but it becomes better and better as the game progresses and you useage of workers in your city increases.
Where in low chapters it might be worse or similar to a residence, in high level chapters that 9sq building might become as powerfull as 100+sq of magic residences or 200+sq of normal residences.

ToS= Good low chapters but bad in the long term.
EE = Good low chapters but bad in the long term./
Needles = Barely usefull in low chapters as you lack production time, but very powerfull in the long term if you intend active participation in tournaments / spire.
Martial Monestary / Sanctuary = Powerfull if you intend active participation in tournamnts / spire.
Crystal lighthouse = Not bad neither good.
Watchtower Ruines = Very powerfull in high level chapters
Throne = kinda pointless
Bulwark = Somewhat nessesary if you are a fighter as it allows you longer training time in a small space compared to armouries
Mountain Halls = neither good not bad.
Prosperity towers = Very good, especially once you need all those supplies (improved spells) for your unit production
Trader = pointless since the introduction of Portal profits
Hero's Forge = bad in the long term
Shrooms = probebly the most important building to create long production times in your unit production buildings

getting bored so here a few of the remaining best buildings.
Flying academy superb just like needles of you fight
Dragon Abbey = Instant mana is awesome and improved mage units also
Timewarp: the building that makes tournaments a lot of fun

Was just wondering why heroes forge isn’t a good one u get the extra orcs n gained heavy melee damage I guess the next one I will put down is prosperity Towers it will help with my troop training I have GA needles DB , Mt Halls and MM so far As I said b4 cater spire n fight T Think I’m gonna go by your list of must haves Thanks

 

[Henroo]

Was just wondering why heroes forge isn’t a good one u get the extra orcs n gained heavy melee damage I guess the next one I will put down is prosperity Towers it will help with my troop training I have GA needles DB , Mt Halls and MM so far As I said b4 cater spire n fight T Think I’m gonna go by your list of must haves Thanks

Generally troops with long range work better than troops with short range. I am Ch14 and I probably use my light range and mage units more than the other 3 types combined. Therefore Needles (damage bonus to light range) and Dragon Abbey (damage bonus to mages) are preferred by most advanced players to Hero's Forge. I doubt I will ever build the Hero's Forge because I find myself using heavy melee less than I did earlier in the game. I have not yet reached the 3 star promotion for Faineant Frogs yet, but every player more advanced than I am swears that they become great once that happens. It is possible that Temple of the Toads might become worth building once this happens. Does any ch 15 player want to weigh in on this?

 

[Darielle]

The Golden Abyss never gets bigger ... it stays the same size as you level up. That is the tremendous difference between it and a residence. By the time your residences take up 20 squares, and your golden abyss takes up only 9 but gives you five times the population of a 20 square residence, you'll really, really appreciate the abyss ... especially the fact that it doesn't cost you culture to build.

 

[samidodamage]

ch 15 player want to weigh in on this?

I built the Heroes' Forge in both cities, but stopped upgrading them. One is at lvl 6 (Ch16), the other at lvl 9(Ch15). In the old tourney structure (and still in the map provinces) there were some provinces with enemy combos where even manual fighters could make use of heavy (and light) melee units; the only issue being manual fighting is slow; it's even slower with heavy melee troops. With the current tourney structure those combos of enemy troops are few and far between. Longer range troops suffer significantly fewer losses. I've also reached the point where I'm not scrambling to train replacement troops as I have a solid inventory of squads, so I don't need 'alternate' troops to save other troops. Ex: I'd use some heavy melee against light melee/heavy melee mix while I got some frogs/blossom mages trained up for the more difficult rounds. With plenty of squads of frogs and blossoms, I don't need to do that any longer. I think HF may still be a viable choice for production of orcs (not sure; haven't looked at the numbers on that) especially for players who primarily negotiate/cater/convince. I don't think crafting was a thing when I built my HF's so orc nests were only available in events then. Now, I craft a bunch of those to put out when between chapters to increase orc inventory (or anytime I do a bunch of upgrades without paying attention to costs, lol!) I'm not sure if they are better at orc production than the HF, but it's tough to decide to nuke something you've put so much kp into (even lvl 6 & 9 is a lot of kp!). I don't think I'd build the HF today. Eventually, I'll probably demolish it in both cities...
Toads is helpful and just as soon as I get that Time Warp up to lvl 30, I'll start working on it again.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

The Golden Abyss never gets bigger ... it stays the same size as you level up. That is the tremendous difference between it and a residence. By the time your residences take up 20 squares, and your golden abyss takes up only 9 but gives you five times the population of a 20 square residence, you'll really, really appreciate the abyss ... especially the fact that it doesn't cost you culture to build.

To add to this. My level 13 Golden Abyss gives me a little more population, 36k, than three level 40 residences, 11k each, in chapter 18. That is 9 squares of space versus 60. When I decide to push my GA up to around 20, that means probably another residence or two I can get rid of.

 

[Gkyr]

Think I’m gonna go by your list of must haves Thanks

You are free to game any way you want to - but I would strongly suggest against adopting someone else's list of the 'best' Ancient Wonders (AWs). As mentioned here and elsewhere:
1. There are as many useful combinations of AWs as there are styles of gaming.
2. For every good review of an AW, I can find a disparaging review.
3. Take into consideration the reasons an AW is liked or disliked and apply it to your own decision-making.
4. You can't or shouldn't collect them all - be discriminating.
Here are some reviews to take with a grain:
https://dirtbeardblog.wordpress.com/ **
https://minmaxgame.com/elvenar-woodelves-planning/ **
Crazy Wizard, above.
Soggyshorts in this thread: https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/ancient-wonders.27310/page-2#post-216331 **
** means scroll down about 1/2 way to find the mentions.

 

[Dew Spinner]

You are free to game any way you want to - but I would strongly suggest against adopting someone else's list of the 'best' Ancient Wonders (AWs). As mentioned here and elsewhere:
1. There are as many useful combinations of AWs as there are styles of gaming.
2. For every good review of an AW, I can find a disparaging review.
3. Take into consideration the reasons an AW is liked or disliked and apply it to your own decision-making.
4. You can't or shouldn't collect them all - be discriminating.
Here are some reviews to take with a grain:
https://dirtbeardblog.wordpress.com/ **
https://minmaxgame.com/elvenar-woodelves-planning/ **
Crazy Wizard, above.
Soggyshorts in this thread: https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/ancient-wonders.27310/page-2#post-216331 **
** means scroll down about 1/2 way to find the mentions.

Yes, but with the new Tournament structure some are universally bad for fighters and caterers, respectively. When I look at a "best AW" lists I usually already know the player's play style who is posting it and therefore I can gauge how it fits with my play style. The problem with saying "depends on your play style" is that new players don't know what their play style is or is going to be later on. They need the "best" lists to decide what their play style is going to be, so they are very useful.

 

[DeletedUser26243]

To add to this. My level 13 Golden Abyss gives me a little more population, 36k, than three level 40 residences, 11k each, in chapter 18. That is 9 squares of space versus 60. When I decide to push my GA up to around 20, that means probably another residence or two I can get rid of.
[/QUOTE my GA is level 14 n I got 1828 pop n 131 k $$ … So I should just let it be until I get more advanced in Chapters ( middle chap 7 rite now) until I have a higher working population? What chapter are you in?

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

my GA is level 14 n I got 1828 pop n 131 k $$ … So I should just let it be until I get more advanced in Chapters ( middle chap 7 rite now) until I have a higher working population? What chapter are you in?

My numbers are for chapter 18. And yes, the further you get in the game, the better the GA gets. Remember that it gives more population in two ways. the first is just by leveling it up. The second is by giving you a bonus on your working population. Every time you level up a building that needs population, the GA gets a little better. And every time you get rid of a building that needs population, the GA gets a little worse.

 

[Iyapo1]

@nativedeer
I cater exclusively atm so my working population is on the high side.
In my chapter 7 city, my working population is 41.5k. So in my city a level 1 golden abyss would immediately be worth more per square than a house.
The higher your working pop the higher the benifit of the GA.


Edit: My GA is at level 29 and gives me a boost of 6014 people or 10.93 fully upgraded houses.

 

[Dew Spinner]

I have never read where any of the game gurus knock the Golden Abyss, so that AW is a solid one to build, level and keep. It just takes patience to get it leveled to a point where it starts to really shine. One early tip I learned is that there is no sense in having a bunch of low level AWs in your city, focus on getting them leveled up so they can REALLY help your city. As soon as I build an AW I speed level it to atleast level 5. I am in chapter 7 and my Martial Monastery is 12, working on 13 now, Golden Abyss is 13, Needles is 13, Mountain Halls is 8 and Dwarven Bullwark is 3 because I am going to ditch that when I get access to the Shrooms AW, so I don't want to put too much KP in it. I also have an Endless Excavation at 9, ditching that when I get access to Prosperity towers. It's better to have less of them at higher levels than most of them at low levels.

 

[Iyapo1]

I have never read where any of the game gurus knock the Golden Abyss, so that AW is a solid one to build, level and keep.

The GA got knocked flatter than flat a few weeks back. Anyone attempting to perform competitively in the tournaments should not have a GA.

I love my GA and dont care about being competitive in the tournament so math can bite me. I gold spire but only get around 4k in the tournament.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Was just wondering why heroes forge isn’t a good one u get the extra orcs n gained heavy melee damage I guess the next one I will put down is prosperity Towers it will help with my troop training I have GA needles DB , Mt Halls and MM so far As I said b4 cater spire n fight T Think I’m gonna go by your list of must haves Thanks

• Heavy Melee units aren't that great in the advanced game, the issue is that your opponent always get's the first chance to strike you as they have no walking nor strike range. The extra damage that they do are therefore not that great, in de advanced game you use 90% light range, mage or heavy ranged units. so the impact of this wonder is very little.
• The Orcs are a joke in the late game, at some point an armoury delivers 3200+ orcs per day, 5500 orcs per day at level 30 with 700 provinces is hardly worth the effort.
• The difficulty of spire and tournaments are depending on several factorts including the amount of wonderlevels you own, an extra 30/35 wonderlevels for a wonder you can hardly use will therefore make your game more difficult that you benefit from it. the goal is to get just the right amount of wonderlevels (read only the ones that make your game absolutely better) this means there are only a handfull of wonders actually worth it to build, if you are a fighter. if you don't give a crap about either of those you can build essentially any wonder because the downside of them you do not care about.