Fair Trades?

[SoggyShorts]

Inno has to use a baseline for calculating the ratio and what is "fair" and that almost definitely means using normal residences and normal workshops and normal roads and factories of equal level

Yeah, that's how I originally disproved the 1:4:16 ratio and it was a pretty solid base then. But once inno introduced buildings that made factories the least efficient way to make goods then that base became a little... off.

So can people please stop it with all the blanket statements about stuff in this game.

The thing about blanket statements and sweeping generalizations is that they work fairly well.
Are there exceptions? Sure, usually, but I'm pretty sure people are aware of that.

Do you need to tailor your statements and advice to specifically address every single edge case that only represents a tiny fraction of a percent of the players? Maybe not. Perfect is the enemy of Good.

I don't believe players are so impressionable that they'll form a completely dogmatic position from reading someone else's opinion and take it as Gospel Truth with the belief that it is an infallible statement that applies to everyone in all situations forever.
I give people a little more credit than that.

 

[Ashrem]

Can we debate what snack is proper for debate watching?

There is no snack but cake, and @SoggyShorts is its prophet.

 

[SoggyShorts]

There is no snack but cake, and @SoggyShorts is its prophet

Good to see a True Believer. The cake has come and as foretold in the holy scriptures the cake shall come again!

Spoiler: The cake is all powerful!

Compare my

2x Steel Level 31
9h production x2(x2) = 40,000/24h
-30,000 pop
-8,000 culture
-50 squares base
-5 sq roads

vs
5x Luscious Cakes
24h production = 46,000/24h
+10,000 pop
+5,000 culture
-50 squares base
-5 sq roads

 

[BrinDarby]

The 1 : 1.5 : 2.25 is arbitrary, ( standard goods )
not rooted in actual space/requirements need'd.

"fair" is subjective, not factual = infinite debate.

Standard, sentient, and ascended are 3 diff conversations.

Simple Filters would solve most ppls complaints, and
allow freedom = Post what ya want, and only accept
what ya want....

 

[Killy-]

Let's not mix decaying temporary goods with regular ones.
Even I, (arguably the poster child for hating cross-trades) am totally fine with sentient cross-trading.

The difference lies mainly in that there is often a huge demand for T4-6 that is temporary:
E.G. a tech will ask for 200K T4, then the next one 200k T5.
It would be ridiculous to have multiple factories making T4,5, and 6 only to use one of them while the others rot away. Constantly using teleports isn't great either.
Non-fighters might be reasonably expected to have some sort of balance since they have constant(?) spire costs, but for fighters, the spikes in demand make it unrealistic so I don't expect anyone to maintain one.

Sure sentient goods might be a little bit different, but I only produce t6 and always trade down - not really different I think. My other goods are relative balanced except t2 (moonstone libraries), so I crosstrade t2 for whatever ratio the market is giving me. I love the crosstrade option, even back in the days with 1:4:16 I argued that crosstier is fine, just don't just those stupid ratios.

Can we debate what snack is proper for debate watching?

At least let's debate, what the best popcorn is (although I am a bit afraid of popcorn form oversea).

 

[SoggyShorts]

Simple Filters would solve most ppls complaints

Yep. I would be fine with a toggle for cross trades (provided it remembers your settings from the last time you used the trader)

Let me uncheck a box for " show cross-trades" and another for "show below 2-star" and the conversation is over for me.

Spoiler: I've been asking for this since before sentient goods were invented.

 

[Ashrem]

The 1 : 1.5 : 2.25 is arbitrary,

All game mechanics are arbitrary. There is not some inherent property of existence which requires coins and supplies to make marble.

 

[SoulsSilhouette]

The ONLY way to stop the cross tier trading and the zero star trading is to NOT take the trades, NOT post the trades and discuss the matter with your fellowship and neighbors. I don't take cross tier trades and only post three star cross tier trades when I have no choice. They are healthy three stars.

 

[Katwick]

Your point is backwards. Games are LESS arbitrary than Life Itself.

One of the more interesting epistological concepts is that we are, in fact, part of a simulation. Perhaps Planck's Constant indicates the precision of "our" processing environment.

 

[Ashrem]

Your point is backwards. Games are LESS arbitrary than Life Itself.

One of the more interesting epistological concepts is that we are, in fact, part of a simulation. Perhaps Planck's Constant indicates the precision of "our" processing environment.

I didn't say life, I said existence. And the possibility of our universe as simulation is simply a postulate, which could fit what we know, not a fact. There are plenty of competing theories, including those which make the point that Planck's isn't evidence of design, because in a universe where it didn't exist, we wouldn't be here to notice it's absence.

Games require arbitrary rules to function, They are not, in any way, less arbitrary than existence because the entire nature of games require that they be encompassed within a system, no matter how pseudo-infinite the system is made to look.

 

[BrinDarby]

The Above Chart shows a comparison, using 36 tiles of each, and all Level-1 buildings per 1k goods.
If you are selling 1000 of the selected good, you get the corresponding amt of another good.
The range in output of goods was between 162-171 and pop was 306-600.
Culture costs are usually 2x whatever the output is... so 324-342.

We all know, due to %boost, bldg upgrades, event bldgs, ect ect ect.... that there
are obvious ways to save costs making any resource, but in order to compare
apples to apples, those savings must be ignored to balance out all players.
Both Culture and Roads were very close to being the same, while population
varried alot...... If there is a further calc, it would be to find the actual cost of 1 pop,
but then that calc would be migrate to the whole chart, not changing ratios....

We can talk till we're blue in the face about filters for the trader, or whether
the 1:4:16 or the 1:1.5:2.25 is applicable..... but none of that changes what "fair"
actually means when actuall #s are involved, if the metric is cost to produce.

Remember any chart thats correct, must include all players from CH1 - CH20.
( and if efficiency increases as CHs increase, then how exactly do we monitize
and account for selling to a different CH player ??? or can a CH8 player only
trade with another CH8 player to keep things fair ??? see what I mean ......
or only a person @ 700% boost can only trade with another 700% boost player )

Cost to produce, must be taken to its lowest common denominator.
Therefore I used 32 tiles each, and only used level-1 bldgs...
If anyone wants to provide me with a realistic cost per 1 pop, and 1 culture
I can further refine this chart......

Edit: Humans only

 

[muffy.]

But but momma it’s not fair !!!!
Don’t look at it then . You can’t control everything especially not people . And you can’t expect Inno to change something that’s worked fine since day one .
People just like to bitch in general.

 

[Killy-]

If there is a further calc, it would be to find the actual cost of 1 pop,
but then that calc would be migrate to the whole chart, not changing ratios....

That part is not correct, like already mentioned.

 

[BrinDarby]

@Killy- , can you be more vague , lololol....

While researching this more, in eArchitect (elves) .... ( +MH lvl-1 )
to support (3) lvl-1 gems.... it took (39) workshops, (44) residences,
and (91) road tiles, not to mention (24) expansions ...... Versus
(18) marble, (3) workshops, (14) residences, (24) road tiles
but only (8) expansions worth......

So if there is a Cost to Produce.... then what critera needs to be used.
Coins, tools, tiles, expansions, workshops, residences,
manufacturing, population, culture ..... did I omit anything relevant ??

 

[ajqtrz]

All game mechanics are arbitrary. There is not some inherent property of existence which requires coins and supplies to make marble.

The game mechanics may be arbitrary in many respects -- one of which you have pointed out -- but once you find a mathematical correspondence you have to ask if the underlying logic is arbitrary or not. If it is based upon some kind of measure of "equal value," then it isn't. And in this case, the ratios seem to reflect some kind of production cost comparison. In other words, T1 has a production cost of X and T2 a production cost of X times 1.5, and so on. If that production cost ratio held at the start of the game then the assignment of those ratios was not arbitrary. And, later on, when it was changed, if it was based upon the same analysis, then, that too, is not arbitrary.

Of course, that analysis, as I've argued elsewhere, is problematic. For one, it doesn't take in the fundamental changes that occur in production. We see T3 in abundance now because there are a lot of event buildings producing T3. Thus, from a supply/demand perspective the ratios are off. In addition, as I've said, it also doesn't take into account the intangible aspects of a trade, like the timing of the trade, the goals of the traders, the generosity of many larger players, and many other factors. So it is, at best, an approximation of value, and a very crude one at that since value resides in the one valuing, not in the game.

AJ

 

[StarLoad]

How about this metric for all to use
I need (x)
You need (y)
if either one posts a trade of x:y or y:x
we are both happy.

So no matter the trade, if you like it and it suits you take it; if not don't and move along, it is that simple And yes, we must have cross trades, so we just have to live with it as I don't see INNO allowing us to turn that off, display or otherwise now.

Ed

OK can we put this to bed now?

 

[SoggyShorts]

if the metric is cost to produce.

It's not anymore.
Back when it was 1:4:16 only the supplies cost was used as a metric.
The improved ratio takes into account the total cost in space/time to produce with factories- better but incomplete.

The issue now is two-fold:
1. A massive portion of goods are produced in non-factory buildings with a significant tilt toward T3 decreasing its value
2. The demand for goods is nowhere close to even across tiers with T1 having almost double the demand of T3

Remember any chart thats correct, must include all players from CH1 - CH20.
( and if efficiency increases as CHs increase, then how exactly do we monitize
and account for selling to a different CH player ??? or can a CH8 player only
trade with another CH8 player to keep things fair ??? see what I mean ......
or only a person @ 700% boost can only trade with another 700% boost player )

This brings it back to reversibility.
If I can accept your trade, and consistently, quickly, and simply pass it off to another player in a neverending game of hot potato where no one loses, then it's a perfectly acceptable trade.

I don't care if it takes you 3 months to produce 100,000 planks and it takes me one day to make 100,000 steel. All I care about is
"Can I swap steel for planks and planks for steel at the same reversible ratio?"
If yes, I'll fulfill any such trade request you make.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Don’t look at it then . You can’t control everything especially not people .

So no matter the trade, if you like it and it suits you take it; if not don't and move along, it is that simple

No. As explained before, simply ignoring them does not actually solve the problem.

They affect everyone even those who think "who cares? I'll just not take them" :

Inside a fellowship that has a no-cross-tier rule players who have stores of goods can simply open the trader and blindly power-click all FS trade requests to help out. If they become unbalanced they know with complete certainty that they can post their own same-tier offers to fix it.
If however there are cross-tier landmines scattered throughout the trader it's not worth the time it takes to tiptoe through it.

We tested this with FS on different worlds that contained several of the same members, and the FS that allowed cross trades often had normal trades languishing for days whereas the FS with a rule never had trade requests up for more than a few hours before being fulfilled.

The same applies to the world trader which I used to clear several times per day every day. All of the hundreds of players within my reach are affected by the few who post cross trades because I and others like me can't be bothered to sift through the crap to help out the fair posters.

 

[SoggyShorts]

we must have cross trades, so we just have to live with it as I don't see INNO allowing us to turn that off, display or otherwise now.

you can’t expect Inno to change something that’s worked fine since day one .

Really? If that was true we'd still be at 16:1, the tournament would be 8 encounters per province, not 1, we'd still have 18 declining quests instead of the current FA interface, we wouldn't have teleport spells, certainly not teleports for evolutions, and there would be no use for blueprints outside of magic buildings, no additional use for runes etc

The list of improvements that this game has which can be directly attributed to players asking for them is significant, and to be honest, your dismissal of them and of all the effort players have put into them is kinda crappy.

 

[StarLoad]

The list of improvements that this game has which can be directly attributed to players asking for them is significant, and to be honest, your dismissal of them and of all the effort players have put into them is kinda crappy.

Sorry, you feel that way but it is my opinion that INNO will not turn that off if they were inclined to I would expect to have seen that when the filters were added for regular and sentient goods. I could be wrong, sure, but I gave MY OPINION and did not dismiss anything else or the work others have put into the game, so really your response was the crappy one.

Ed