Possibilities for FA improvement

[Myne]

I have heard it said that elvenar fellowship adventures should be changed to levels or divisions rather than the whole of elvenar fellowships competing. Should it be by fellowship, or by player (wouldn't that add a whole level of weirdness)?

Discuss

 

[Myne]

nothing huh?

 

[Rythel]

The Fellowship Adventure as a whole is just a very difficult situation to tackle. While I, myself, don't really have a good fix for it I do believe it needs to be re-evaluated as a whole. I think that once the below issues are addressed the ability to have a more fair competition would arise.

The FA needs a more fair and equitable form of competition

The Fellowship Adventure is currently the only meaningful form of competition within the game. There is competition within the tournament but the FA actually gives a tangible reward for outperforming others. I personally despise any form of PvP and am thus quite happy with my fellowship's goals with the FA but I understand all of the hurt going around the forum regarding this competition. Do I believe there is fair competition when it comes to the FA? No. But I also don't believe that its current format can be fair. I also don't believe that switching to levels or divisions will help and having personal scores would defeat the purpose of it being a Fellowship Adventure.

Participation in the FA needs to not interfere with participation in the other aspects of the game

I personally dislike how the FA is presently arranged with productions. I feel like the goal of the FA is completely opposite to every other aspect of the game. The Tournament, Spire and even Guest Races and Main Story Quests have the player focusing on producing goods and spending those goods to achieve goals. And while I do applaud the creativity in finding another method of engagement that doesn't require spending resources, the manner in which you have to produce the resources conflicts with and may even hinder the other aspects. The FA is the only activity in the game that cannot be done (with any form of major success) while still accomplishing other goals in the game. It's an either-or situation and it should be addressed.

The FA should present a more meaningful form of city tetris than it currently does

A second aspect that I take issue with is the whole idea of a shanty town. While I get a major aspect of Elvenar itself is city tetris, level 1 workshops and manufactories are not meaningful forms of tetris. Each Guest Race is unique and different with fun challenges to overcome. Space that was used for the last chapter may not work for the next one and thus a redesign becomes necessary. These level 1 workshops and manufactories are so small and modular that it presents no active challenge in city design. While I, personally, would like to not have to redesign my city at all for the FA, I understand that it's a current major component of the FA and would like to see more meaningful ways to facilitate this.

The FA should be accessible to players of all levels and not specifically cater to lower-leveled cities

Another issue I think the FA has is how it caters to lower-chapter players. While the FA should be accessible to players of every level, it should not be overly catered to smaller cities. The fact that a player in chapter 12 or beyond is incapable of even producing the items required for statues and necklaces without building a shanty town infuriates me. It also brings in the entirely other discussion of FA push towns that is currently being discussed in other threads. The FA should find a way to be accessible to all players without being easier for newer players.

I would say something more about better rewards, but their answer to that was to make event rewards harder to obtain so I won't push my luck.

 

[Myne]

The Fellowship Adventure as a whole is just a very difficult situation to tackle. While I, myself, don't really have a good fix for it I do believe it needs to be re-evaluated as a whole. I think that once the below issues are addressed the ability to have a more fair competition would arise.

The FA needs a more fair and equitable form of competition

The Fellowship Adventure is currently the only meaningful form of competition within the game. There is competition within the tournament but the FA actually gives a tangible reward for outperforming others. I personally despise any form of PvP and am thus quite happy with my fellowship's goals with the FA but I understand all of the hurt going around the forum regarding this competition. Do I believe there is fair competition when it comes to the FA? No. But I also don't believe that its current format can be fair. I also don't believe that switching to levels or divisions will help and having personal scores would defeat the purpose of it being a Fellowship Adventure.

Participation in the FA needs to not interfere with participation in the other aspects of the game

I personally dislike how the FA is presently arranged with productions. I feel like the goal of the FA is completely opposite to every other aspect of the game. The Tournament, Spire and even Guest Races and Main Story Quests have the player focusing on producing goods and spending those goods to achieve goals. And while I do applaud the creativity in finding another method of engagement that doesn't require spending resources, the manner in which you have to produce the resources conflicts with and may even hinder the other aspects. The FA is the only activity in the game that cannot be done (with any form of major success) while still accomplishing other goals in the game. It's an either-or situation and it should be addressed.

The FA should present a more meaningful form of city tetris than it currently does

A second aspect that I take issue with is the whole idea of a shanty town. While I get a major aspect of Elvenar itself is city tetris, level 1 workshops and manufactories are not meaningful forms of tetris. Each Guest Race is unique and different with fun challenges to overcome. Space that was used for the last chapter may not work for the next one and thus a redesign becomes necessary. These level 1 workshops and manufactories are so small and modular that it presents no active challenge in city design. While I, personally, would like to not have to redesign my city at all for the FA, I understand that it's a current major component of the FA and would like to see more meaningful ways to facilitate this.

The FA should be accessible to players of all levels and not specifically cater to lower-leveled cities

Another issue I think the FA has is how it caters to lower-chapter players. While the FA should be accessible to players of every level, it should not be overly catered to smaller cities. The fact that a player in chapter 12 or beyond is incapable of even producing the items required for statues and necklaces without building a shanty town infuriates me. It also brings in the entirely other discussion of FA push towns that is currently being discussed in other threads. The FA should find a way to be accessible to all players without being easier for newer players.

I would say something more about better rewards, but their answer to that was to make event rewards harder to obtain so I won't push my luck.

OK, let's start with the "more fair and equitable form of competition.
If there were leagues or levels, with each fellowship starting at the zero point and with even slightly different prizes at the top of each league or level, would that be enough to inspire the fellowships that are not as competitive? There is nothing saying they can't change the landscape to ONE map rather than three. Would that be discouraging to the smaller fellowships?

If fellowships were started in the FA by being presorted into (let's call them leagues) by score to start, their performance would position them where they would finish while still enabling them to finish in a position within their league to win something extra.

I don't see how the FA is catered to smaller cities. I have a smaller city that I play and I can tell you it's harder, much harder if you are in a younger fellowship to even finish the 3 maps due to the lack of space and more limited resources.

The very nature of the FA kind of negates the tetris aspect of the game in one way. It becomes more of stuff the sack I think. I am not going to tell anyone they cannot build shanty towns. I build them. Why? Because I like it. One of the excellent aspects of this game is that you can play it any way you want. There are no city po-po.

 

[mucksterme]

Another issue I think the FA has is how it caters to lower-chapter players. While the FA should be accessible to players of every level, it should not be overly catered to smaller cities. The fact that a player in chapter 12 or beyond is incapable of even producing the items required for statues and necklaces without building a shanty town infuriates me.

If it caters to low chapter players, why aren't they the ones ending highest?
And, don't all level players need shanty towns to produce a lot of stats and necks? Not to mention smiths.

I really expected to see people saying the FA favors big cities.

 

[Flashfyre]

If it caters to low chapter players, why aren't they the ones ending highest?
And, don't all level players need shanty towns to produce a lot of stats and necks? Not to mention smiths.

I really expected to see people saying the FA favors big cities.

Smaller cities tend to have more WSs/factories, so they can produce larger quantities of badges. Statues and Necklaces are gained not by the amount of T1 goods produced (which would favor more advanced cities who usually have fewer buildings that produce higher quantities) but by the number of 1day or 2day production runs. This is why shantytowns, comprised of masses of Lvl1 T1 and WS buildings, are needed by the advanced cities, so they can make those badges in quantity. If you only have 2 Lvl 34 Marble factories, you can make 1 Statue; if you have 6 Lvl 12 Planks factories, you can make 3 Statues in the same 2day period.

And, yes, for the quantities we usually talk about shantytowns are useful at all city progression levels, not just the more advanced ones.

 

[mucksterme]

Smaller cities tend to have more WSs/factories, so they can produce larger quantities of badges. Statues and Necklaces are gained not by the amount of T1 goods produced (which would favor more advanced cities who usually have fewer buildings that produce higher quantities) but by the number of 1day or 2day production runs. This is why shantytowns, comprised of masses of Lvl1 T1 and WS buildings, are needed by the advanced cities, so they can make those badges in quantity. If you only have 2 Lvl 34 Marble factories, you can make 1 Statue; if you have 6 Lvl 12 Planks factories, you can make 3 Statues in the same 2day period.

And, yes, for the quantities we usually talk about shantytowns are useful at all city progression levels, not just the more advanced ones.

Larger more advanced cities tend to be able to create more space for level 1 buildings. Therefore they can make more of those badges.

 

[Rythel]

If fellowships were started in the FA by being presorted into (let's call them leagues) by score to start, their performance would position them where they would finish while still enabling them to finish in a position within their league to win something extra.

I think that would be a good starting point as leagues could help produce a more intimate and friendly form of competition among their group, but I think it would still reduce the overall feeling of competition that some people in this game desire. Leagues would remove the ability to be #1 and that's what I suppose a lot of people are striving for with the FAs. If leagues were created in addition to the world ranking then it could work.

And, don't all level players need shanty towns to produce a lot of stats and necks? Not to mention smiths.

You've missed my point completely. I'm not talking excelling in the FA, I'm talking low-level, basic participation. A player in chapter 9 does not have to build a shanty town. They can simply switch their productions to the 1 or 2 day productions and produce Statues, Necklaces and Smiths without having to sacrifice anything in their town except for less efficient productions. Contrast that with a player in chapter 15 who cannot produce Statues and Necklaces without building a shanty town.

Those who have yet to hit sentient goods can participate by simply switching productions. Higher levelled players must sacrifice one aspect of their city to even fully participate. That is what I mean by catering to lower cities. Lower chapter cities can participate at any level while higher chapter cities cannot.

 

[mucksterme]

You've missed my point completely. I'm not talking excelling in the FA, I'm talking low-level, basic participation.

Well then you are right, I do miss your point.
You talk about the FA being a competition. "the FA actually gives a tangible reward for outperforming others. "
Now you say I didn't realize you are talking about basic participation.
So yes, I definitely have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[crackie]

The FA is the only activity in the game that cannot be done (with any form of major success) while still accomplishing other goals in the game. It's an either-or situation and it should be addressed.

Not necessarily. Some of us with Timewarps get 2 rounds of tourney in and also push harder in tourneys during FA week for ghost badges. We also try to get two Spires done. In one of my FS, FA week pretty much equates to 19th chest push week. So it’s 19th chest push back to back. That’s why I’ve said in the past that groups that excel at FA are thinking of FA year round, whether there is one on the calendar or not. They are in position to throttle their cities at will. They aren’t waiting for AM to announce push week months in advance to start hoarding goodies. Some people play with short term styles and that just mean it’s more difficult to adapt when FA is thrown in the calendar. There is more to FA than building shantytowns!

Another issue I think the FA has is how it caters to lower-chapter players. While the FA should be accessible to players of every level, it should not be overly catered to smaller cities. The fact that a player in chapter 12 or beyond is incapable of even producing the items required for statues and necklaces without building a shanty town infuriates me.

I agree with @mucksterme, but if you are in a competitive FA group, then everyone has shantytowns up and down the roster no matter the chapter. It’s a team event meant for everyone to collaborate. Not everyone should be making the same type of badges.

Whenever I read about FAs on here, I think of this graphics.

The part a lot of people won’t acknowledge is teamwork requires a different skill set than being technically good at the game. Not all mages have the people or leadership skills to wrangle 25 people. Not everyone wants to play as a group. They don’t plan to develop these skills bc it’s not part of elf game so they’d rather the elf game change the format to remove these requirements. If your leaders lack management skills, your group is at a great disadvantage. If your players don’t like teamwork, your group is at a disadvantage. None of that has anything to do with a player’s technical ability to play Elvenar, but has far reaching outcomes in a group’s ability to do FA well. And yes, the people represented in red in the pie chart are in my FS as well. I may point and laugh at them, but I acknowledge they are in our midst and that’s just how they are, but we just gotta work with who we have.

 

[Myne]

Not everyone should be making the same type of badges.

The part a lot of people won’t acknowledge is teamwork requires a different skill set than being technically good at the game.

If your leaders lack management skills, your group is at a great disadvantage. If your players don’t like teamwork, your group is at a disadvantage

These are basic truths, whether or not anyone wishes to acknowledge them.
But to bring the discussion back to the problem...Do you think a change to leagues with prizes for the top 5 in each league would be an improvement? Do you feel that it would give more desire for the lower level fellowships to compete?

 

[crackie]

But to bring the discussion back to the problem...Do you think a change to leagues with prizes for the top 5 in each league would be an improvement? Do you feel that it would give more desire for the lower level fellowships to compete?

In theory, yes. But in reality, probably no after one FA like this. The competitive FS now are not doing it for the prizes. They are not motivated by any dangling carrots so any changes to the prizes won't change anything, except maybe get more people to complain they can't chase down the leader pack for something more meaningful to win. People who need prizes to get motivated to act are going to finish as you would expect against people who are already willingly wrecking their cities for crap prizes. They might go into the first one all gung ho and hopeful that they have a chance with the new changes, but then only find out they still are getting blown out of the water because they haven't been exercising their FA muscles this whole time. Then they'll be just as discouraged as they are now by the gap and wouldn't want to do it anymore.

 

[Myne]

In theory, yes. But in reality, probably no after one FA like this. The competitive FS now are not doing it for the prizes. They are not motivated by any dangling carrots so any changes to the prizes won't change anything, except maybe get more people to complain they can't chase down the leader pack for something more meaningful to win. People who need prizes to get motivated to act are going to finish as you would expect against people who are already willingly wrecking their cities for crap prizes. They might go into the first one all gung ho and hopeful that they have a chance with the new changes, but then only find out they still are getting blown out of the water because they haven't been exercising their FA muscles this whole time. Then they'll be just as discouraged as they are now by the gap and wouldn't want to do it anymore.

Gotcha. Well, in your opinion, what would motivate??

 

[crackie]

Gotcha. Well, in your opinion, what would motivate??

I don't think it's a matter of motivation as much as misalignment of playing styles where FS that are normally casual suddenly want to compete. It's like forcing squares into a circle and then asking the game to change because the shape doesn't fit.

If you want to compete (not just participate) in FA, then you just have to build your FS for that priority. The top FA teams generally are competitive in all aspects of the game too and not just FA. For example, a Gold Spire nets 1 player 22 CC's for 11 druid badges in team rewards alone, or 275 druids in a full squad (but more if they got them in individual chests). That means a casual FS that choose to opt out of Spire already need to manually craft up to 275+ druids to even catch up on one badge type. Same for tourney, which is full of witch hats, marbles, and ghosts. Can a casual player suddenly throttle up to do that much while their city is in shantytown shambles? Maybe, but less likely. Hence, to think throwing in some better prizes will make FA more enticing for the non-competitive players is wishful thinking at best.

Ranking well is about mastering the Pit since all the top FS can finish all 3 paths on all 3 maps. Mastering the Pit means you need a crap ton of everything. By nature of being casual means they want to pick and choose what they want to do (or not). They're def not going to have fun throttling up to all out in everything all of a sudden. A competitive player is likely already doing a lot of tourney and Spire so it's not affecting their weekly goods budget any by having an FA on the calendar. The best way to get better at FA is to become better all-around Elvenar player. That's simply not something everyone wants to do. Even among competitive groups, if a FS suddenly raises the tourney min from 1600 to 5000, a lot of players are going to balk and walk. It's not so much trying to motivate them to do 5000pts in tourney as much as that's not fun for them and they don't want to do it. If you want a 19th chest FS, then you have to recruit players that want 19th chests and prioritize tourney. Same goes for FA.

 

[Darielle]

Larger more advanced cities tend to be able to create more space for level 1 buildings. Therefore they can make more of those badges.

Exactamundo.

 

[Darielle]

All I know is that my chapter 18 city, once I teleport everything I can, makes oodles more badges than my chapter 8 city does. It even makes more bracelets, believe it or not, because having 16 level 32 planks, along with a fed aureate, a fed storm, mm spells, and a high level ETC, do far more good than simply having a lower amount requirement in chapter 8, with no etc, no level 10 storm or aureate (which I couldn't feed anyway, with so little pet food in the lower chapter), and only mm spells to help (oh and far, far fewer time instants too.) Lastly, I have maybe 200 coin instants in my higher chapter city before an FA ... the lower one has maybe 30, if I'm lucky.

My chapter 18 city does the lion's share of basically all badges, since it also has far more spell frags and cc's and can get through far more provs in the tourney. (Also has a ton more 5days.) Hands down, it's far easier to do the FA with higher level city than a lower one IF ... and that's a big if ... you are willing to basically teleport your whole dang city away for one week. If not, then I can see someone lamenting about how much easier it is for lower chapter players.

 

[Myne]

I don't think it's a matter of motivation as much as misalignment of playing styles where FS that are normally casual suddenly want to compete. It's like forcing squares into a circle and then asking the game to change because the shape doesn't fit.

If you want to compete (not just participate) in FA, then you just have to build your FS for that priority. The top FA teams generally are competitive in all aspects of the game too and not just FA. For example, a Gold Spire nets 1 player 22 CC's for 11 druid badges in team rewards alone, or 275 druids in a full squad (but more if they got them in individual chests). That means a casual FS that choose to opt out of Spire already need to manually craft up to 275+ druids to even catch up on one badge type. Same for tourney, which is full of witch hats, marbles, and ghosts. Can a casual player suddenly throttle up to do that much while their city is in shantytown shambles? Maybe, but less likely. Hence, to think throwing in some better prizes will make FA more enticing for the non-competitive players is wishful thinking at best.

Ranking well is about mastering the Pit since all the top FS can finish all 3 paths on all 3 maps. Mastering the Pit means you need a crap ton of everything. By nature of being casual means they want to pick and choose what they want to do (or not). They're def not going to have fun throttling up to all out in everything all of a sudden. A competitive player is likely already doing a lot of tourney and Spire so it's not affecting their weekly goods budget any by having an FA on the calendar. The best way to get better at FA is to become better all-around Elvenar player. That's simply not something everyone wants to do. Even among competitive groups, if a FS suddenly raises the tourney min from 1600 to 5000, a lot of players are going to balk and walk. It's not so much trying to motivate them to do 5000pts in tourney as much as that's not fun for them and they don't want to do it. If you want a 19th chest FS, then you have to recruit players that want 19th chests and prioritize tourney. Same goes for FA.

All I know is that my chapter 18 city, once I teleport everything I can, makes oodles more badges than my chapter 8 city does. It even makes more bracelets, believe it or not, because having 16 level 32 planks, along with a fed aureate, a fed storm, mm spells, and a high level ETC, do far more good than simply having a lower amount requirement in chapter 8, with no etc, no level 10 storm or aureate (which I couldn't feed anyway, with so little pet food in the lower chapter), and only mm spells to help (oh and far, far fewer time instants too.) Lastly, I have maybe 200 coin instants in my higher chapter city before an FA ... the lower one has maybe 30, if I'm lucky.

My chapter 18 city does the lion's share of basically all badges, since it also has far more spell frags and cc's and can get through far more provs in the tourney. (Also has a ton more 5days.) Hands down, it's far easier to do the FA with higher level city than a lower one IF ... and that's a big if ... you are willing to basically teleport your whole dang city away for one week. If not, then I can see someone lamenting about how much easier it is for lower chapter players.

I agree and understand all of these points. So, the point of motivation is moot. People will play their own styles no matter what.
Prizes aside for the moment, because we know that won't change until the structure of the FA itself is changed(more than likely), if we keep the badge requirement, but change the physical layout of the game what do you think the options are?
In other words, should there be more maps for the higher level achievers? Less maps for casual players?
I am still of the opinion that sorting into leagues by score and adjusting the map accordingly would be a start.

I am even open to a different format altogether. Perhaps a storming the castle sort of something or another. I don't believe the spire qualifies as that, honestly.

Perhaps a true style quest with the process being searching for items in other cities.

Thoughts?

 

[mucksterme]

If you want to compete (not just participate) in FA, then you just have to build your FS for that priority. The top FA teams generally are competitive in all aspects of the game too and not just FA. For example, a Gold Spire nets 1 player 22 CC's for 11 druid badges in team rewards alone, or 275 druids in a full squad (but more if they got them in individual chests). That means a casual FS that choose to opt out of Spire already need to manually craft up to 275+ druids to even catch up on one badge type. Same for tourney, which is full of witch hats, marbles, and ghosts. Can a casual player suddenly throttle up to do that much while their city is in shantytown shambles? Maybe, but less likely. Hence, to think throwing in some better prizes will make FA more enticing for the non-competitive players is wishful thinking at best.

Bingo

Also, being in a Gold Spire FS gives you the transports you need to make space for your slum
and
timers that come in handy for crafting and perhaps bracelets

 

[mucksterme]

In other words, should there be more maps for the higher level achievers? Less maps for casual players?

You have three paths
Casual players can just work on one path per map

 

[Katwick]

Perhaps a true style quest with the process being searching for items in other cities.

Thoughts?

Check out Scavenger-hunt-cities.

There was zero interest; it's simply too hard to locate specific buildings, even in your own city and especially so on a desktop computer where you can't hide the buildings. It's too difficult even if you're using ElvenArchitect.

What I'd REALLY like to see is

1. A bottom screen tab for the Builders, just like we already have for the Trader, especially in a city that you're visiting.
2. An Inventory Tab on the Builder that would yield an itemized list of the buildings, with at least
   1. Chapter
   2. Level
   3. Status (time remaining, etc)
   4. Type
   5. Name
   6. A clickable thumbnail

With THAT tool available a Scavenger Hunt would be a blast, you'd see a lot of new ideas, and I would expect to see some prrtty interesting "Why Did You ...." discussions in the forums.

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