Award for Killing Fun Goes to: Whoever Nerfed Troops

[DeletedUser4417]

another important point that lionsmane appears to be oblivious to is dispayed in his comments regarding the "3 phase" implementation of the combat system.

what?

a system should not be implemented into a game until it is complete. that is what alpha and beta versions are for- and what beta testers are for- the majority of who responded that this new system is awful.

Systems that are hugeare OFTEN implemented in stages into live games. It makes it so that IF something goes wrong they know where to look rather than implement the whole shebang, have something go wrong and then they have millions of lines of code to sort through to figure out where the problem is.

additionally, lionsmane is resorting to ad hominem attacks ("you are living in the past, bobby kitty") rather than actually addressing the presented issues, which are entirely valid.

If you paid attention I DID address the the presented issues. Problem is the issue cannot be resolved for some players that have over-scouted and over-conquered. They are stuck until Inno catches up to them in terms of Chapters.

this is the psychological manipulation of rationalization. "never mind what people think, just do it anyway- some are bound to be upset, but that is okay"..... even if 'some' consists of a vast majority who have been expressing their opinions openly as far back as the beta versions.

Call it what you will. You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time. Sorry but a 'vast majority' are not even ON the forums. The forums MIGHT consist of 10% of the overall players of the game. Your 'vast majority' falls well and truly flat.

 

[DeletedUser853]

As a 10% I don't like the changes. Since no one listens it is pointless to say why. I don't like getting cut to shreds for my opinion either. Normal here it seems.

 

[DeletedUser4417]

As a 10% I don't like the changes. Since no one listens it is pointless to say why. I don't like getting cut to shreds for my opinion either. Normal here it seems.

If it's pointless then why come to the forums at all. You have made one comment, period. So please, why don't you like the changes?

 

[DeletedUser61]

I have had my butt handed to me by you and what else?

Well I can't hardly pass up a opening like THAT!

We've always been on the opposite sides of this fence.

• I think the game should be played efficiently
• You think the game should be pushed as far as it will go

Perhaps a visual will help me make my point.

 

[DeletedUser2963]

It all fits! Its more efficient than three....or five trips, isn't it?

 

[DeletedUser43]

I've never understood what you mean by efficiently, or pushing the envelope. You seem to think it is efficient to not do anything to your city? I don't get it. Give me concrete examples please of what you mean.

I went and looked at your city. It looks pretty large. I would guess you either bought expansions or sent your scouts out. You have 15 maxed out workshops. Ok. You only have 2 of each factory. Ok. You have a bunch of houses. Ok.

So you have decided not to build more factories and I did? That is what you call not being efficient? I call it simply making different choices. So what are you saying? I really don't get it.

I mean, right now, I am building my city back up. I tore it apart to build the orcs and now I am putting it back together, but I see you have a lot of orc stuff in your city too. So huh?

 

[DeletedUser4417]

I've never understood what you mean by efficiently, or pushing the envelope. You seem to think it is efficient to not do anything to your city? I don't get it. Give me concrete examples please of what you mean.

By efficient the meaning is that when you take let's say 100 troops to fight a battle.

Your way, by the way you play, would play, or advocate the game you lost 99%+; when you negotiate the cost is increased approximately 3-5 fold conservatively

The way we suggest, by not over-conquering losses are much less. Costs to negotiate are way less.

Your way of scouting means you are over 24 hours in scouting, the the cost is increased vastly.

Conversely this means that a person can do more with what they have. In being able to do more with what they have it means they don't need as many supply stores, goods manufacture shops, etc. This cuts down on the overall space that is required etc.

 

[DeletedUser853]

"If it's pointless then why come to the forums at all. You have made one comment, period. So please, why don't you like the changes?"

Find answers, learn. One comment but here reading often. Have been playing for over a year. No matter what I do I do not come close to a win. So many resources and time spent for what I would not call fun.

 

[DeletedUser61]

Give me concrete examples please of what you mean

If I'm building a REAL building, the concrete kind, the finished building only has a certain value, regardless of how much money I spent (wasted) constructing it. Consequently, the Cost/Benefit ratio is a primary way of comparing potential projects, and the ratio is also an effective way to evaluate the performance of the construction personnel.

By analogy, the "finished building" in Elvenar is reaching the end of the Technology Tree, or you can use the end of each chapter as a milestone. Anything that you add OVER AND ABOVE the minimum that's needed to finish the chapter is an additional cost with no additional benefit.

Let's focus on the pickup for a moment. Let's say that it's a 1/4 ton pickup that handles well when it's carrying loads of less than 500 pounds. If you add MORE than 500 pounds, then the pickup become unwieldy, clumsy, and unsafe.

Again by analogy, Elvenar is a 1/4 pickup. It only has a limited carrying capacity. If you load it down TOO heavily it starts to get creaky and unfun.

So where is the sweet spot for Elvenar? The developers have now started building various fences so that folks can't wander too far afield, because the developers want the challenges and puzzles to remain interesting and engaging.

 

[DeletedUser4417]

"If it's pointless then why come to the forums at all. You have made one comment, period. So please, why don't you like the changes?"

Find answers, learn. One comment but here reading often. Have been playing for over a year. No matter what I do I do not come close to a win. So many resources and time spent for what I would not call fun.

Ok, what race do you play? Let's start there. Elves, at least in my understanding, have always been the race that is harder while humans seem to have an easier time of it.

 

[DeletedUser2963]

Sorry, I still just can't imagine how long it took them to load that truck....*looks at the pic again* rofl. Thanks for the visual Katwijk.



@Nnaul, Your city is very pretty with the little pathway parks

 

[DeletedUser4672]

Systems that are hugeare OFTEN implemented in stages into live games. It makes it so that IF something goes wrong they know where to look rather than implement the whole shebang, have something go wrong and then they have millions of lines of code to sort through to figure out where the problem is.

OFTEN? name FIVE such instances, off the top of your head. It should be easy if such an occurence happens "often." Your refusal or inability to do so will directly indicate that you are pulling things "out of thin air" as you suggest others were doing.

"it makes it so that....." - no, this is what BETA TESTING is for.

how does implementing a system change into a LIVE game versus a BETA game "make it so they knew where to look?" By all means, I am most curious to hear your explanation.

again, this is what beta versions and beta-testing are for.

If you paid attention I DID address the the presented issues. Problem is the issue cannot be resolved for some players that have over-scouted and over-conquered. They are stuck until Inno catches up to them in terms of Chapters.

is it possible that you can make a post without some sort of derogatory or condescending remark?

"if i paid attention" directly implies that i did not, in fact- pay attention, which if you were paying attention to what i had written, you would realise i had fully done. i scrutinized this entire thread, post by post, before replying. your implication that i did not "pay attention" is in fact, naught but a veiled ad hominem attack- suggesting that if YOU did not address the issue, it is MY fault because i did not "pay attention." i most certainly did, and your addressing of such issues was cherry-picked, biased, and wholly inaccurate, as was pointed out by several different people.

you mention again the "some players have over-scouted and over-conquered" and yet fail to address what i posted- that in fact, said over-scouting and over-conquering is in fact decisevely NOT the cause of the combat problems. you instead, selectively chose what to respond to.

interestingly, you respond by suggesting that i was not paying attention, whereas- your lack of responding to the issue i presented supports my claim that you did not address presented issues.

can you provide quotes of yourself actually addressing said presented issues? (not mine, but bobbykitty's?) i find it highly doubtful that you did so, considering that you could not, in fact, even address the issue i presented in my post regarding your 'over-ness' being inaccurate.

Call it what you will. You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time. Sorry but a 'vast majority' are not even ON the forums. The forums MIGHT consist of 10% of the overall players of the game. Your 'vast majority' falls well and truly flat.

"Call it what you will." - psychological manipulation of evasion.

"You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time."

rhetoric. (also part of said above evasion)

one of your many mistakes here is your assumption that i am gathering my "vast majority" numbers from those on the forum- whereas, I am in fact, doing no such thing. I joined the forum last night, specifically so I could address this combat issue. I have taken no such data from these forums. my information here was taken from beta-testing comments, fellowship chat, in-game IMs, and so forth.

in short, a "vast majority" being ON the forums or not, is wholly irrelevant as regards my point.

your "argument" falls well and truly flat.

 

[DeletedUser2963]

@ rainboots, question about your original post. What is the average squad size you are facing in the fights you or your fellows are having problems with?


And yeah, still agree HM hit got nerfed a bit much, they are slow, when they reach it, they should be able to kill it.

 

[DeletedUser4417]

OFTEN? name FIVE such instances, off the top of your head. It should be easy if such an occurence happens "often." Your refusal or inability to do so will directly indicate that you are pulling things "out of thin air" as you suggest others were doing.

Everquest. World of Warcraft. Spartan Wars. Battle Pirates. Guild Wars. Tera. Runescape. Elder Scrolls.

To correct you the ONLY person I have suggested pulling things out of thin air was BobbyKitty. So when you go around making claims of 'others' you might want to check yourself.

"it makes it so that....." - no, this is what BETA TESTING is for.

how does implementing a system change into a LIVE game versus a BETA game "make it so they knew where to look?" By all means, I am most curious to hear your explanation.

again, this is what beta versions and beta-testing are for.

Ok, Beta testing is exactly that, a testing mode. It is ONE server. Currently, outside of Beta they have at least 5 server worlds and these cater to different countries for the most part. Code, when in Beta does not always react the same way when in a live application. This is because in beta there is a limited number of people that are using/experiencing it and no matter the rigor of testing not all things can be anticipated/tested/seen. It is why there are often a fair number of bug fixes once something goes from Beta to live. Because when people find a bug and report it. Sometimes it is minor while sometimes these things are major and could compromise the integrity of the game itself and/or servers. Rolling a massive change out in phases allows that they can see that things are stable and react and fix things quicker and more easily because the new code is limited.

is it possible that you can make a post without some sort of derogatory or condescending remark?

"if i paid attention" directly implies that i did not, in fact- pay attention, which if you were paying attention to what i had written, you would realise i had fully done. i scrutinized this entire thread, post by post, before replying. your implication that i did not "pay attention" is in fact, naught but a veiled ad hominem attack- suggesting that if YOU did not address the issue, it is MY fault because i did not "pay attention." i most certainly did, and your addressing of such issues was cherry-picked, biased, and wholly inaccurate, as was pointed out by several different people.

Problem is? You did NOT pay attention. I addressed the issues that were brought up. If you had read what was written you would have seen that.. It's not my fault if the person did not like how the issue was addressed. But it was addressed.

you mention again the "some players have over-scouted and over-conquered" and yet fail to address what i posted- that in fact, said over-scouting and over-conquering is in fact decisevely NOT the cause of the combat problems.

They are the cause of combat problems for some. You blanket assume that just because that is not your problem that it is not the problem for others.

you instead, selectively chose what to respond to.

interestingly, you respond by suggesting that i was not paying attention, whereas- your lack of responding to the issue i presented supports my claim that you did not address presented issues.

When a person does not respond to a specific instance, it is not a failure to address it. It is rather simply that there is not enough information. Ever considered that before you go off on a tangent?

can you provide quotes of yourself actually addressing said presented issues? (not mine, but bobbykitty's?) i find it highly doubtful that you did so, considering that you could not, in fact, even address the issue i presented in my post regarding your 'over-ness' being inaccurate.

You can go back and search. I have addressed what she complained of many times where in she complained of scouts that take over 24 hours and battles that are near unwinnable. It was addressed. She just did not like what was said.

"Call it what you will." - psychological manipulation of evasion.

"You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time."

rhetoric. (also part of said above evasion)

It's not an evasion. It's simply an old saying that rather eloquently breaks down to mean that no matter what is done some people will love it, some people will hate but you can't get everyone to love it all the time.

one of your many mistakes here is your assumption that i am gathering my "vast majority" numbers from those on the forum- whereas, I am in fact, doing no such thing. I joined the forum last night, specifically so I could address this combat issue. I have taken no such data from these forums. my information here was taken from beta-testing comments, fellowship chat, in-game IMs, and so forth.

in short, a "vast majority" being ON the forums or not, is wholly irrelevant as regards my point.

your "argument" falls well and truly flat.

*Cough* You do get that the beta test forum is a ~forum~ and that in that short span you just contradicted yourself? I did not 'assume' anything. I read what you wrote and reacted based off of what you wrote. If you were unclear in your meaning that is hardly my fault. Once again, we go back to the 'forums' and those registered and participating as being perhaps 10% of the players over all so once again, your 'vast majority' falls short and flat considering that average traffic per day stats puts Elvenar pulling in some 113,000+ people a day. Now what would be accurate is if you said the vast majority of the people that you had spoken to etc... but unless you have interacted on even a semi-regular basis with 75,000+ then that 'vast majority' you speak of is rather lacking...

 

[DeletedUser43]

By analogy, the "finished building" in Elvenar is reaching the end of the Technology Tree, or you can use the end of each chapter as a milestone. Anything that you add OVER AND ABOVE the minimum that's needed to finish the chapter is an additional cost with no additional benefit.

Then I am being efficient by your definition. I just finished getting done with the orc chapter a few days ago. The new chapter will be out with the next update. I still have all the buildings to upgrade now that the chapter is done. I decided to wait and upgrade everything when I was done with the tech. The orcs needed so much room, you know. So I guess I am a tad behind and should have done a bit more, but almost!

Wow! Efficient by Kat's standards. Never thought I would get there.

I have needed all my scouts to stay busy to get the same amount of space that you seem to need for the same chapter. Our cities are looking similar in size now too! Though, I always find it a little hard to see the space as the cities get so big. But they look pretty close!

 

[DeletedUser4417]

Then I am being efficient by your definition. I just finished getting done with the orc chapter a few days ago. The new chapter will be out with the next update. I still have all the buildings to upgrade now that the chapter is done. I decided to wait and upgrade everything when I was done with the tech. The orcs needed so much room, you know. So I guess I am a tad behind and should have done a bit more, but almost!

Wow! Efficient by Kat's standards. Never thought I would get there.

Actually, no, you misunderstood that entirely. Your are actually highly IN-EFFICIENT by Kat's standards.

Let's say it takes 1000 of a resource to produce a troop build and it takes let's say 10 of these to achieve a full size squad.

By your method, with the way you are now, as you have over-conquered your battles by your own admission are to the point you cannot win or if you do you barely have any troops left. That means that out of the five squads you have either lost them all or have lost 99% of them. Or if you choose to negotiate your way, the cost is 5 times what it should be.

Conversely you get someone that has not over-conquered and their battles are winnable as the enemy squad sizes are smaller so they might lose the normal of 1-3 squads depending on squad and tactics. Additionally their negotiation costs are vastly less for the same reason.

Then there is scouting. A person who has not over-scouted looks at scouting times that are under 24 hours. This also means that the scout cost is cheaper. Whereas a person that has over-scouted faces scout times that are 2,3, 4 or more times that. With costs that are likewise raised.

To put it in laymans terms if everything is equal in both cities, your way takes up more time and more resources to accomplish the same goal of winning one battle, negotiating one battle or scouting one province.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Scout times increase as you go. You can either not scout and have no room to build a building and no way to get any tech done, or you can scout. Or of course you can just skip all that and just buy expansions. You can buy all the expansions and then you never need to scout again.

How long do you let your scouts sit before you send them out?

I think if I followed what you are saying, I would have had to let my scouts sit still for 12 months, maybe 9 months? Has anyone done the math on this? I can't remember when I was facing one day scouting times. It was a very long time ago. That would have meant I would have had to research zero provinces all this time.

I'm curious how the new people will play this game. Maybe it will take people 4 years to get where we are now? They will have to sit and wait months and months at a time before they can sent out a scout. Or of course just buy their way through. But we aren't talking about that. Of course, they also have a lot bigger tech tree in front of them, so you can't compare. They will get advanced scouts right away instead of waiting months for them to show up. I don't really think you can compare.

But you could try it Lion. You could build your city and make sure you don't get to the dwarf chapter for 6 months. If you get there any faster, then just wait. That is the efficiency that Kat is talking about. Take 6 months to get TO the dwarves and make sure you don't go any faster!

I looked at your city. If you care about efficiency, then you really should focus on building your boosted factories and not waste all those resources on non boosted factories. There are some newbie guides that might help you!

 

[DeletedUser4417]

Scout times increase as you go. You can either not scout and have no room to build a building and no way to get any tech done, or you can scout. Or of course you can just skip all that and just buy expansions. You can buy all the expansions and then you never need to scout again.

Scout times also decrease with each Advanced scout. But again we fall back to tactics and strategy. A person has to look ahead to what they will face in the chapter and plan ahead. Strategize accordingly. So far a combination of scouting to within the range and the expansions provided have given what was needed, as it was needed with some left over. We shall see if this holds true as the game progresses but I currently see no reason for it not to currently.

How long do you let your scouts sit before you send them out?

Depends on where I am as far as conquered provinces. If I am not maxed then I send them out to scout all around me. If I am maxxed, then I let them stay idle.

But you could try it Lion. You could build your city and make sure you don't get to the dwarf chapter for 6 months. If you get there any faster, then just wait. That is the efficiency that Kat is talking about. Take 6 months to get TO the dwarves and make sure you don't go any faster!

She's not talking a set time. She is talking about keeping everything in that sweet 'high efficiency' spot. Time in games like this is irrelevant as some will live on here and thus speed through the game, some will choose to open their purse strings and pour cash in and again, speed through, still others will play the game at a normal pace and others are more leisurely and will log in for an hour here or there every 2-3 days and so it could take them 2 months or more to go through a chapter.

 

[DeletedUser43]

She? Oh you mean Katwijk. He is very much a he.

Scout times also decrease with each Advanced scout. But again we fall back to tactics and strategy. A person has to look ahead to what they will face in the chapter and plan ahead. Strategize accordingly. So far a combination of scouting to within the range and the expansions provided have given what was needed, as it was needed with some left over.

Except when there aren't any advanced scouts in front of you. You keep talking about the past criticizing people for not using things that weren't there. It is nonsensical. The tech tree ended. No more advanced scouts at the time. None. Nada. The dwarf chapter wasn't even released until 6 months after the game started on the live servers, but we all had to wait 10 months on beta. It took a long time before that chapter was released. Prior to that, the tech tree ended the tech tree ended in chapter 5. We played 5 chapters and 5 chapters only. That was the entire game.

We shall see if this holds true as the game progresses but I currently see no reason for it not to currently.

They are saying that the new advanced scouts will be more powerful than the old ones were. They are now designing them to be more powerful and give a great deal more of a boost than they did in the past, so that will help new players like you to not face the troubles we faced. That is IF I understand what they have said correctly. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I saw that somewhere in one of the many forums. Someone can double check that for me. Sadly I don't know which forum I saw it on. If that is true, that will be great for you. But of course, they won't go back and retroactively make the ones we already unlocked any different. They never do that. When the ancient wonders came out, that was really tough on all the players who had been here a long time. They didn't get any runes retroactively. They had done all that scouting and none of those provinces gave them any runes.

 

[DeletedUser4417]

She? Oh you mean Katwijk. He is very much a he.

He. Fair enough.

You really should learn about boosted goods and non boosted goods. That will help you a great deal if efficiency is important to you. It is one of the most common newbie mistakes and players who keep playing always have to undo all that work. Of course, some people like to build things because they are pretty, so I don't mean to presume. There is no wrong way to build your city.

I know about boosted goods already. Have known about them for a while. However I look at the trades that are out there that I can take that are not penalized as well as the fact that only a few in my FS can build what I would need if I only focussed on just the boosted goods. For now, until things change, I have to be self sufficient. At the moment this way is efficient under the circumstances. As game play goes along that may or may not change. If it does then I will adjust the efficiency model. I'm not stressed for space, I produce what I need and have, so far, an abundance of excess and research proceeds apace so all is good.