Award for Killing Fun Goes to: Whoever Nerfed Troops

[DeletedUser2191]

He. Fair enough.


I know about boosted goods already. Have known about them for a while. However I look at the trades that are out there that I can take that are not penalized as well as the fact that only a few in my FS can build what I would need if I only focussed on just the boosted goods. For now, until things change, I have to be self sufficient. At the moment this way is efficient under the circumstances. As game play goes along that may or may not change. If it does then I will adjust the efficiency model. I'm not stressed for space, I produce what I need and have, so far, an abundance of excess and research proceeds apace so all is good.

If you have to build and produce your own non boosted manufactories because the FS you are in is not providing then ...

a) whoever is recruiting is doing a poor job for the balance of the FS
b) you have slackers that need to be removed
c) the importance of boosted only goods being built hasn't been explained
d) you need to find a new FS for you to properly benefit from

 

[DeletedUser4417]

If you have to build and produce your own non boosted manufactories because the FS you are in is not providing then ...

a) whoever is recruiting is doing a poor job for the balance of the FS
b) you have slackers that need to be removed
c) the importance of boosted only goods being built hasn't been explained
d) you need to find a new FS for you to properly benefit from

Part of that is on me as enjoy learning and exploring about the game in somewhat of an independant manner. Part of that is also on the fact that at the time when I was looking at Fellow Ships and sent out messages to same I either got not replay or the replies I did get where specifically looking for certain things that well and above out of my reach at the time. IE Gems, Dust, Elixir when I was barely halfway through the first chapter. Since that time, the FS I have run across that are active are full up on members or their people that are able to recruit are not on or ignore the message. Slackers are there and are being removed. I'm giving this FS a bit more time but I am also looking for other opportunities.

 

[LuvizBlind]

Systems that are hugeare OFTEN implemented in stages into live games. It makes it so that IF something goes wrong they know where to look rather than implement the whole shebang, have something go wrong and then they have millions of lines of code to sort through to figure out where the problem is

My takeaway from the argument is that those that are Beta testing the recent changes (they are on Part 2 now...) were telling Inno that it may be best to allow the testers to test the WHOLE thing, Parts 1, 2 and 3 before they released Part 1 to the live servers. Not that they are saying the whole thing needed to get released at one time.

If you paid attention I DID address the the presented issues. Problem is the issue cannot be resolved for some players that have over-scouted and over-conquered. They are stuck until Inno catches up to them in terms of Chapters.

I've got 5 cities, in varying states after this Part 1 release. I am a player that did not battle ahead in ANY of them... but in some of the cities I have HAD to scout ahead. My purposes for scouting ahead in some of them was because I needed ACTIVE NEIGHBORS, and I would head towards those that were TRADING GOODS I needed regularly NOT because I was after expansions. My annoyance with this whole shebang is that in my opinion, if Inno had addressed the trading issues, and neighbor issues that the beta testers were telling them about (long before the RECENT implementation of moving the cities) many folks would never have needed to scout ahead for those reasons; and now we are being told 'You played wrong'.

I'm curious how the new people will play this game.

I'm not brand new, I've been around since about the beginning of the year sometime. I've been reading the forums though, here and Beta. I gotta hand it to you BK, you have a lot of fortitude. I'm not sure I'd have been able to do all that waiting you did, and its clear that you love the game. I was in your position in another game a couple decades ago, and believe it or not I still renew my subscription to that game from time to time just to see how its faring now. The newer players there are quite happy and don't have a care or a clue about what came before them. BUT, your question was regarding Elvenar... And while I am not new, and I do consider myself fairly knowledgeable about the game so far, I am pretty discouraged with how Inno has and is handling things; right now I'm not really playing, I am just existing, and waiting, and trying to bide my time. In order to move forth in the cities I've scouted ahead, I am looking at much harder battles there which means more troops needed, and more troops lost; and I'm still trying to build my squads up to a normal for me # of a whopping 15 squads of each unit type before I even attempt to test the new battles out. So the next part of the battle changes are coming out in just a few days now, and I've not really recovered or tested out Part 1 yet. Heh, maybe that's a blessing in disguise, who knows? So, as a quasi newish player, I'm not yet ready to bail, but I'm pretty frustrated, and that's not how I like to play my games. I'll give it some time, but won't be spending any more $.

It's amazing to me that this company doesn't at least TRY to do a little something for the players when undergoing such huge change that's packing such a powerful punch.

I looked at your city. If you care about efficiency, then you really should focus on building your boosted factories and not waste all those resources on non boosted factories. There are some newbie guides that might help you!

I gotta disagree with you here. I started all my initial cities out by building and producing all goods as they became available. This was before I had delved too far into the forums and wiki, and honestly this is my first city building game; I'm more of an RPG'er, so I was semi clueless initially. Around the time T3 goods came into play though, I began having space and population issues (on top of trading issues); so I started really hunting for specific information at that time, crunched #'s, looked around at bigger flourishing cities. I slowly began the process of going boosted only; using the population and space to upgrade and add more of my boosted manus. And I thought, Wow! This is great! But then the need for my unboosted goods grew greater, and so began my attempt to help myself by scouting ahead (not battling ahead!) to reach trading neighbors. {But I did not know that was WRONG at that time} So I still thought everything was so much better, and I regretted all the time, supplies spent unnecessarily on trying to produce all the goods. With my newfound knowledge I started a new city in Elcy. (only had 4 at that point) I was determined to start that one out boosted only right from the beginning; and I challenged myself further by saying 'no diamonds' spent either, to see how I would fare. It was RIDICULOUSLY hard, but I kept at it. I have since broken down and used diamonds there. And I don't consider that city in as good of shape as my others because it does not have the stockpiles of unboosted goods that my other cities now enjoy. And in getting ready for the halloween quest thats coming, I have gone ahead and built some T1, T2 , T3 unboosted manu's and upgraded them to L3. Now I probably won't keep them very long.... but I had the space, and need the extra trickle of goods it brings and I'll probably hit them with some spells here and there.

I guess my point is that each city will have its own challenges. Where is it on the world map? How active are your neighbors with visits? with trades? How healthy is your FS? Should I stay? Should I go? Can I get what I need through trading for the next several techs I'm looking at? Or do I need to do something to speed that up because if I don't I'll have to wait? As well as there being many different types of players... some play for points and ranks; some play to make a beautiful city; some like to crunch numbers constantly and work towards top efficiency; some are content to wait out the days doing little or nothing, some are not. Some want to be in a FS with lots of rules and that removes players not towing the line quickly; some want to be in a more laid back FS without a lot of rules. We are all different as players and none of our cities will have the exact same experience because there are so many variables. In one of my cities, I am in a GREAT fellowship, but they are into their Ranking... I have decided that I need to sell off some things, and do some major rearranging there, yet I feel like I can't because its going to make my points go down. I don't care about that, but they do... So again, I'll have a choice of actions to take. (as do we all at various points within the game and with each city dependent on all sorts of variables.

After I wrote all the last two paragraphs it occurred to me that I didn't know if there were any BIG ADVANCED cities flourishing with all 9 types of manu's upgraded regularly. I'm curious now, anyone know?

 

[DeletedUser]

I guess my point is that each city will have its own challenges. Where is it on the world map? How active are your neighbors with visits? with trades? How healthy is your FS? Should I stay? Should I go? Can I get what I need through trading for the next several techs I'm looking at? Or do I need to do something to speed that up because if I don't I'll have to wait? As well as there being many different types of players... some play for points and ranks; some play to make a beautiful city; some like to crunch numbers constantly and work towards top efficiency; some are content to wait out the days doing little or nothing, some are not. Some want to be in a FS with lots of rules and that removes players not towing the line quickly; some want to be in a more laid back FS without a lot of rules. We are all different as players and none of our cities will have the exact same experience because there are so many variables. In one of my cities, I am in a GREAT fellowship, but they are into their Ranking... I have decided that I need to sell off some things, and do some major rearranging there, yet I feel like I can't because its going to make my points go down. I don't care about that, but they do... So again, I'll have a choice of actions to take. (as do we all at various points within the game and with each city dependent on all sorts of variables.

I completely agree, LuvizBlind, and myself & many others on the forum have made these points over & over again to illustrate our perspective that taking choices away from players & forcing everyone into the same narrow path is NOT always the right answer. We all play differently because no city is the same - some of this game really does depend on luck - like whether you were placed with active neighbors or whether you get into an active FS quickly. Other parts of this game are based on motivation, which for many of us is very different. Some play for social aspects, some play to have a "pretty" city, some play for points or ranking, some play for a variety of these reasons, some like the battles, some don't - but no one is playing the game WRONG, and I will continue to say that it's an affront to many players to see/hear either the devs or other players say so.

 

[DeletedUser43]

But then the need for my unboosted goods grew greater, and so began my attempt to help myself by scouting ahead (not battling ahead!) to reach trading neighbors.

No question you can't trade with neighbors in many neighborhoods. That's what fellowships are for. It was much harder before fellowships came in. (Yes, I played before they even had fellowships). I agree it is hard to find the right fit, but once you do all your trading issues are solved. It just takes a while. But it is always very inefficient to make non boosted goods. You are better off making the boosted goods and using the trader to buy the ones you like if you can't find a fellowship. Use your boosted goods to buy non boosted goods. It will cost you the same as what you lose in goods capacity by making it yourself and when you finally do find a fellowship or a trading partner who moves into your neighborhood, you'll be up and running and won't have spent all those resources upgrading factories you are going to tear down. Just keep focusing on getting relics to boost your goods and soon, even if you do trade them to the trader to get what you want, you'll still be way ahead.

The neighborhood system is a mess. It always has been. So many people quit right after they start this game. It takes a long time to get them out of the neighborhoods. A player who is here for 10 seconds will have their city sit there for 30 days or more before it is deleted. I completely agree that it can be a horribly difficult game if you are spawned in a bad section of the world map. That happened to me on beta.

Unless, you like the looks of the buildings and don't care about the numbers of goods you produce. That is a totally different kind of game. Or unless you want to play a game with no fellowship. Or you just want to see the little buildings move. Then none of what I said applies.

My takeaway from the argument is that those that are Beta testing the recent changes (they are on Part 2 now...) were telling Inno that it may be best to allow the testers to test the WHOLE thing, Parts 1, 2 and 3 before they released Part 1 to the live servers. Not that they are saying the whole thing needed to get released at one time.

Yes. This is exactly what we said until we were blue in the face. I mean...just LOOK at me.

Part of that is also on the fact that at the time when I was looking at Fellow Ships and sent out messages to same I either got not replay or the replies I did get where specifically looking for certain things that well and above out of my reach at the time. IE Gems, Dust, Elixir when I was barely halfway through the first chapter. Since that time, the FS I have run across that are active are full up on members or their people that are able to recruit are not on or ignore the message.

It is difficult finding a fellowship. No question. You are best off finding a fellowship of new players when you are new. The more advanced fellowships have members that have needs of their own and new players can't fill them. Look for fellowships near the bottom of the list with players with cities that have similar scores to what you have. That is a good indication that they are new too.

The easiest way to find a fellowship is to go the section of this forum where people are constantly advertising for fellows or you can place your ad up there so people can grab you. Look under the tab for your world.

One thing that people may not know is that as an archmage you get tons of messages all day long from new people. At first, you might craft a lovely letter explaining to new people why you can't accept them. But here is what happens. You get the nastiest and most horrid letters back filled with strings of curse words. Not from everyone, but enough that at some point, I can see why some people just ignore messages. Those letters are very unpleasant.

 

[DeletedUser2753]

Elvenar pulling in some 113,000+ people a day. Now what would be accurate is if you said the vast majority of the people that you had spoken to etc... but unless you have interacted on even a semi-regular basis with 75,000+

Innogames may be paying for and getting clicks on Elvenar ads of 113,000+ people a day, but they sure are not joining the game at anywhere that number. Were did you get this information, these numbers? If it is correct were are these players and new joins? certainly not in the 5 worlds I know of.

I have tracked the joins and purges in Elvenar and would like you to just look:
Total Count at 9 PM 10/13
Arendyll 41315
Winyandor 34548
Felyndral 31713
Khelonaar 30531
Elcysandir 26697
Now go look at what your own world is at today, 10 days later:
Elcysandir 26291 and of these realize that only 23435, have a score>0, that's about 3000 that don't even finish joining to get on the map.
Winyandor, 34091, same drop, no gain

Then consider even after the big move on the 12th how many of your new neighbors were still dead, not active. 75%? and you get a fraction of the totals above, far less then 75,000. Then consider a large number of players are still active in more then one world. Conservatively divide that number of all those on the map in half to arrive at the number of real players. WOW... 15,000 maybe.

In addition I have seen no significant growth over months of watching and OMG see the above change in the last 11 days, A major drop, and they have not purged inactive/dead players over a score of about 1000 or with 200 diamonds, so the loss is newbees.

If you want stats, you can find in the forum a 30 day Daily recording of growth and progress in Winyandor. Here are the numbers after tracking a long total purge.
8/5/16: 32489 total, 28982>0, 26979>20, 22377>100, 19619>250, 18697>400, 16318>1000 & 13714>2000, 9048>5000, 2095>30k, 787>55k, 317>80k
8/15/16: 32783 total, 29438>0, 27419>20, 22807>100, 20008>250, 19085>400, 16711>1000 & 14041>2000, 9348>5000, 2188>30k, 794>55k, 350>80k
10/4/16: 34548 total, 31082>0, 28980>20, 24790>100, 22164>250, 21266>400, 18821>1000 & 16020>2000, 10885>5000, 2679>30k, 1114>55k, 523>80k
8/5-10/4 + 3000 + 2100 +2000 +2400 +2550 +2570 +2500 +2300 +1840 +600 +335 +200

Notes:

• Total - All that have given email and selected password
• >0 ---- All that have completed tutorial or opened a second village finding predone MH, 1 Res & 1 workshop
• >20 -- An actual player, has done research and clicked something in their village
• 1100 - Approx. lvl 3. Purge safe harbor point
• 1250 - Finish Chapter I
• 2000 - Average lvl 4. Start Chapter II
• 5000 - Just short of finishing Chapter II
• 5250 - Finish Chapter II

In addition I am sure kat can give you more data.

In summery, Your making statements not based on fact.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Now go look at what your own world is at today, 10 days later:

Do you have a link to all this data? Have you posted it anywhere? I'm really curious what the game looks like after the 12th.

edit: oh wow! I just looked at arendyll:

Only 37706 have a score of 1 or higher.
Then there are hundreds of pages of players who haven't made it to 25 points. So they are quitting as soon as they get here.
There are only 40,668 total, so that number is dropping.

I don't know how we would see what the 12th did to the population. Some of those cities will never be deleted. For example, the number 5 ranked player. His city will sit there for all time.

 

[DeletedUser2753]

Do you have a link to all this data? Have you posted it anywhere? I'm really curious what the game looks like after the 12th.

I added this above
8/5/16: 32489 total, 28982>0, 26979>20, 22377>100, 19619>250, 18697>400, 16318>1000 & 13714>2000, 9048>5000, 2095>30k, 787>55k, 317>80k
10/4/16: 34548 total, 31082>0, 28980>20, 24790>100, 22164>250, 21266>400, 18821>1000 & 16020>2000, 10885>5000, 2679>30k, 1114>55k, 523>80k
2 months + 3000 + 2100 2000 2400 2550 2570 2500 2300 1840 600 335 200
I invite anyone in another world to do the same and become familiar with the new joins, purges and migration. it takes about 15 min, to find out these numbers in your world, Post them here.
and
Yes they moved inactive players which they said they would not unless the now 75% dead went inactive since the move.

 

[DeletedUser2753]

Some of those cities will never be deleted. For example, the number 5 ranked player. His city will sit there for all time.

I just went back to my old area where I was removed from. I had discovered approx 150 people before being moved, and on the 12th had about 125 goldmines and 25 remaining cities of which 75% were dead, one even quit in may (see jpeg), leaving about 5 active. Using this one long gone player to search I discovered my old area and of those 25 or so cities left after a month long complete goldmine replacement purge, they left 10 behind, moved 15 or so.

Therefore it appears they moved many inactive players. I know who was active since I visited each every day for about 12 months and watched. This means just by this one example they moved 10 inactive players, 5 active players and left behind 10. This does not surprise me since after the move in 2 worlds I still find more then 2 out of 3 neighbors are dead/inactive.

What does this mean? First the total count still includes the long long gone and even with the move you need to believe thousands more have quit as well, even if they moved them. Of these, few will be purged since they are above 1000 score or have 200 diamonds someplace. So the ones that now get purged to new goldmines, and I have seen a few appear in the past 10 days, are all newbees.

What does this mean? Elvenar is a loser, not growing, but shrinking and the revenue is not growing as well, so ask yourself. What would you do next as the Program Manager with this team? What will turn this around?

 

[DeletedUser61]

Wow! Efficient by Kat's standards. Never thought I would get there

Let's pretend, for the moment, that each chapter is a separate "concrete" building, and when it's complete you have to pack up all of the "extra" stuff that you didn't use, and cart it to the next building where you HOPE you'll be able to use it.

The value of the concrete building is fixed. In Elvenar it's the Techs, the Upgraded Buildings, the Expansions that you actually needed, the Relics and Runes that you've accumulated, and the Knowledge Points that you contributed to Ancient Wonders when you ran short on Coins/Supplies/Goods/etc and didn't have anywhere else to put your KPs

• If you like to fuss with the numbers, you only need two days worth of working inventory
• It's more comfortable to have a couple weeks ofworking inventory, which you can eyeball, and especially so if you're depending on trades
• ANYTHING that you can't use within two weeks is OVER PRODUCTION, and it's NOT efficient because you've been using resources to make something that you DON'T NEED.

If somebody purchases Premium Expansions, that's the same as paying overtime. Overtime does NOT increase the value of the "concrete" building, is merely makes the available sooner, at a much higher cost. Note that buying Knowledge Points falls into this same category. You have too many Coins and/or Goods if you're buying KPs.

Paying Wholesale prices for non-boosted goods is a painful way to go, but if you can't clear your trades then the wholesaler is your only decent option.

So, just before you open that next Scouting Chest, look at all of your numbers. Can you REALLY use everything within two weeks?? If not then you have a problem, and it's only going to get worse unless you adjust what you're making.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Can you REALLY use everything within two weeks??

Easily. I don't have enough for two weeks.

 

[DeletedUser4672]

Everquest. World of Warcraft. Spartan Wars. Battle Pirates. Guild Wars. Tera. Runescape. Elder Scrolls.

To correct you the ONLY person I have suggested pulling things out of thin air was BobbyKitty. So when you go around making claims of 'others' you might want to check yourself.

as for my claims of "others" my apologies- as you claim ONE OTHER was doing. sorry for my incorrect pronoun pluralization. interesting that you should choose to mention it, though. thanks for correcting me. it was a tremendous and important error as regards the original topic of discussion. i mean, it REALLY REALLY matters that it was "other" vs "others." probably just a mistake from too many ales, i suppose.

you just pulled "everquest" out of thin air. as a 14 year veteran everquest player, beta-tester, and volunteer guide- there has NEVER been a system change which was implemented in stages- particularly stages where one caused a massive entire change to the combat system which got negative reaction in the beta-testing and then continued forward to live servers without change.

you are just making that up. name the expansion and what the changes were- and how said changes were as you described:

Systems that are hugeare OFTEN implemented in stages into live games. It makes it so that IF something goes wrong they know where to look rather than implement the whole shebang, have something go wrong and then they have millions of lines of code to sort through to figure out where the problem is.

which huge systems in everquest were implemented in stages into the live servers? what were said changes and what expansions did they take place in? name 3.

i don't recall any such changes in elder scrolls either, but i was a more casual player of there. as for EQ though, i played religiously since 2002. i began beta-testing shortly thereafter. there were NEVER any 'huge systems implemented in stages.'

i would venture that your claims for such changes in these other games are equally based in "thin air."

additionally, the suggestion that "IF something goes wrong they know where to look rather than implement the whole shebang, have something go wrong and then they have millions of lines of code to sort through to figure out where the problem is" is the false dilemma fallacy AKA "black and white fallacy" in addition to having a few more errors present.

for example, if a massive system change is implemented in stages to prevent what you suggest, the results of all of the stages combining cannot be understood until such happens. while each individual "stage" might produce some or no problems, the combination of all of them is the only actual test of what happens when ALL of them are implemented. which again, should occur and usually does occur during beta-testing.

something going wrong with a change is PRECISELY WHAT BETA TESTING IS FOR.

When a person does not respond to a specific instance, it is not a failure to address it. It is rather simply that there is not enough information. Ever considered that before you go off on a tangent?

not only have i "ever" considered such, but i ALWAYS consider such before.. wait? what is it that you perceive me as doing? going "off on a tangent?"

again, more ad hominem rather than addressing the issue. for the what is it? 3rd time? i have directly refuted your main claim that combat issues are the direct result of "over-scouting" and "over-conquering" as you have suggested more than once as the only possible cause of such issues.

i have a fellowship member right now who is 4 provinces shy of being eligible for the "fairies" expansion but cannot beat an encounter via fighting without far more difficulty and time spent- and sometimes, not at all. personally, i am 4 over the minimum to enter the fairie expansion.

and prior to you re-stating your previous claim (as you did with bobbykitty) that our difficulties are due to not taking note of the changes and working with them- the top players in my fellowship, including myself, are MENSA members, we know eachother in real life and converse regularly. this is important because even being so, we are still having far more trouble than before beating the encounters- and more importantly, one should not have to be a genius to win an encounter in a game!

so regarding your failure to address the issue i brought up multiple times now- namely that your suggestions of "over-conquering" and "over-scouting" are the culprits for being unable to win fight encounters post-change- what information are you lacking from me- as you suggest that such is not a "failure to address it" but "SIMPLY that there is not enough information."

did you need the exact number of defeated provinces? there you have it.

furthermore, one does not need "enough information" to address an issue. one could address said issue by stating "i need more information." prior to your covert suggestion in this last post, you did no such thing. ever consider that before you go off on a tangent?

 

[DeletedUser2753]

To followup on my previous posts here I would like to share this chart:

Expansions
Chapter Expansions Provinces Expansions Total ME
Start ------- 6 ------------ 0 ---------- 0 ----------- 6
1 -----------1-2 -----------10 ---------- 4 --------- 12
2 ----------- 3-5 --------- 30 ---------- 4 --------- 19
3 ----------- 6-9 --------- 50 ---------- 8 --------- 27
4 ---------- 10-14 ------- 70 ---------- 8 --------- 35 -- 41 (bought 6 )
5 ---------- 15-20 ----- 100 --------- 10 --------- 45
6 ---------- 21-26 ------ 130 --------- 10 --------- 55
7 ---------- 27-31 ------ 160 ---------- 9 --------- 64
8 ----------- 32-35 ----- 190 ---------- 8 --------- 72 -- 90 (bought 12)+ I completed 243 provinces, thats 190+53 or 6 more expansions
9 ----------- 36-38------ 220 --------- 6 --------- 78​

• I wish to thank SoggyShorts amd Mykan for help putting this chart together..
  
• The Provinces is the number in the chest over advanced scouts at the beginning of the next chapter
• The second Expansion column is the number of expansions you get by Map Encounters before reaching the chest number.
• The 18 expansions in 2 worlds that I bought have cost me about $90 over 14 months.
• In my chapter 8 city I was able to build tons of marble and copper mines and Faerie farms and later shoom farms still with room for alot of culture and 6 AWS.
• In my newer city with 6 paid expansions I am now landlocked and since I am boycotting diamonds, I am slowed to a crawl.

Now, recently, they have limited the last way free way of gaining the space needed to build and progress, expanding your Map discovered area, and OMG, I signed on for a City Builder game after all, not a Closet Organizer game.

If you can live within the expansions they now allow/recommend/mandate (see provinces & total expansion columns) and enjoy the experience god bless you.

 

[DeletedUser4417]

interesting that you should choose to mention it

Not terribly interesting at all. You were the one that brought it up.

you just pulled "everquest" out of thin air. as a 14 year veteran everquest player, beta-tester, and volunteer guide- there has NEVER been a system change which was implemented in stages- particularly stages where one caused a massive entire change to the combat system which got negative reaction in the beta-testing and then continued forward to live servers without change.

you are just making that up. name the expansion and what the changes were- and how said changes were as you described:

Ahh and here we go. I gave what you asked and now you turn around and move the goal posts on things and will keep moving the goal posts. You said name 5 and I did. Now you add on stipulations etc. Asked, answered and named. Moving on. When everquest FIRST came out yes, there was a 2 stage deployment of an upgrade. This happened circa 1999-2000. It was EARLY, EARLY on.

additionally, the suggestion that "IF something goes wrong they know where to look rather than implement the whole shebang, have something go wrong and then they have millions of lines of code to sort through to figure out where the problem is" is the false dilemma fallacy AKA "black and white fallacy" in addition to having a few more errors present.

Guessing you have never coded a day in your life let alone understand just how massive a job it is. Here is how it goes in most cases. Devs have this upgrade they code it and integrate it into their beta program and also a mirror program. They test it for however long, fix any bugs that are noted by the beta testers and tweak a few things. They make the same changes to the mirror copy. This then is what is swapped for the existing game run file. If there is a problem after it goes live they can then compare the two and go thru the modified line code. A smaller upgrade is easier than a massive one as less changes are in effect hence less lines of code to deal with.

for example, if a massive system change is implemented in stages to prevent what you suggest, the results of all of the stages combining cannot be understood until such happens. while each individual "stage" might produce some or no problems, the combination of all of them is the only actual test of what happens when ALL of them are implemented. which again, should occur and usually does occur during beta-testing.

Wrong ! Because as stage 1 is implemented and accepted, stage 2 is implemented on top of that then stage three on top of that. The full effect is seen by the Beta Test crew and tweaks are then made to further balance should it become necessary.

something going wrong with a change is PRECISELY WHAT BETA TESTING IS FOR.

Beta testing cannot and DOES NOT find all the bugs, glitches and problems with the code. Never has, never will. This is exemplified by the the release notes. Some of those are JUST bug fixes.. to the program that the beta testers had already looked at and tested.

again, more ad hominem rather than addressing the issue. for the what is it? 3rd time? i have directly refuted your main claim that combat issues are the direct result of "over-scouting" and "over-conquering" as you have suggested more than once as the only possible cause of such issues.

Did I at ANY point say that over-scouting/Over-conquering was the 'only possible cause?' No. Point of fact I have not said that. That is however your false perception. Once again, I DID address the issue so your claim of 'refuting three times' falls flat as there is nothing to support it. I asked questions of the players and based on THEIR ANSWERS and what is known of the game mechanics, gave the answer. They did not like that answer and you either did not read it or did not understand what was written. There is no ad hominem. It's simple failure.

and prior to you re-stating your previous claim (as you did with bobbykitty) that our difficulties are due to not taking note of the changes and working with them- the top players in my fellowship, including myself, are MENSA members, we know eachother in real life and converse regularly. this is important because even being so, we are still having far more trouble than before beating the encounters- and more importantly, one should not have to be a genius to win an encounter in a game!

Being a MENSA member has zip and squat to do with the game. It is you tooting your own horn a bit but does nothing to add relevance, clarity or increased importance to your argument.

so regarding your failure to address the issue i brought up multiple times now- namely that your suggestions of "over-conquering" and "over-scouting" are the culprits for being unable to win fight encounters post-change- what information are you lacking from me- as you suggest that such is not a "failure to address it" but "SIMPLY that there is not enough information."

What race are you playing? The race matters a great deal as one has it easier than the other. What squads are you deploying for what battles and against what foes?

furthermore, one does not need "enough information" to address an issue. one could address said issue by stating "i need more information." prior to your covert suggestion in this last post, you did no such thing. ever consider that before you go off on a tangent?

Might want to check yourself Rainboots. I read what BobbyKitty wrote and what YOU did was immediately jumped in guns blazing with assumptions. I NEVER ONCE said that over-conquering or over-scouting was the only culprit. That was you putting that in there and none other.

To correct you, one ALWAYS need more information. The more information the better to help diagnose something and that is true of ALL things, not just a video game. I have yet to go off on a tangent, you however have done so a few times in this thread.

 

[DeletedUser2753]

Guessing you have never coded a day in your life let alone understand just how massive a job it is. Here is how it goes in most cases.

Please tell me your experience coding or managing a software project.

 

[DeletedUser4672]

Ahh and here we go. I gave what you asked and now you turn around and move the goal posts on things and will keep moving the goal posts. You said name 5 and I did. Now you add on stipulations etc. Asked, answered and named. Moving on. When everquest FIRST came out yes, there was a 2 stage deployment of an upgrade. This happened circa 1999-2000. It was EARLY, EARLY on.

i did not "turn around" nor move goal poasts, nor am i adding on stipulations. when i said "name 5" i was asking you to name 5 which met the stipulations YOU provided, which were:

Systems that are hugeare OFTEN implemented in stages into live games. It makes it so that IF something goes wrong they know where to look rather than implement the whole shebang, have something go wrong and then they have millions of lines of code to sort through to figure out where the problem is.

you may be perceiving my "what were said changes and what expansions did they take place in? name 3" as said "add on stipulations" but i think that if you state that this happened once, c 1999-2000 that you should be able to tell us WHAT said "2 stage deployment of an upgrade" consisted of, to demonstrate that you actually know what you are talking about. there was no such upgrade.

if there was such an upgrade, what was it? what were the two stages- be specific. you've not said a single thing that suggests you are even remotely familiar with the game other than what is available upon a cursory internet search.

even if there were, it would support my point- as your claim that said systems are "OFTEN implemented in stages into live games" - this would be ONE example in one game that happened 16 to 17 YEARS AGO. what does this tell us? while we cannot directly infer that such was the case, it is likely, considering that there have been no such "2 stage deployments of an upgrade" since, that verant/sony/whoeverownsitnow realised this was not a good idea- otherwise it would have happened again.

your initial claim of such OFTEN happening was the bandwagon fallacy. even if other games did it, does not make it a good idea- which is what you are indirectly suggesting by offering up such fabricated information.

so tell us, what were said "2 stage deployment of upgrades" that occured in the live everquest servers c. 1999-2000?

 

[DeletedUser4417]

Please tell me your experience coding or managing a software project.

Mine personally? That petered out back in the day when you learned to code programs using an Atari.

However I do have two cousins that do it professionally and learned the hard way to not ask too many questions of what they do as the answers get long winded.

 

[Mykan]

To followup on my previous posts here I would like to share this chart:

Expansions
Chapter Expansions Provinces Expansions Total ME
Start ------- 6 ------------ 0 ---------- 0 ----------- 6
1 -----------1-2 -----------10 ---------- 4 --------- 12
2 ----------- 3-5 --------- 30 ---------- 4 --------- 19
3 ----------- 6-9 --------- 50 ---------- 8 --------- 27
4 ---------- 10-14 ------- 70 ---------- 8 --------- 35 -- 41 (bought 6 )
5 ---------- 15-20 ----- 100 --------- 10 --------- 45
6 ---------- 21-26 ------ 130 --------- 10 --------- 55
7 ---------- 27-31 ------ 160 ---------- 9 --------- 64
8 ----------- 32-35 ----- 190 ---------- 8 --------- 72 -- 90 (bought 12)+ I completed 243 provinces, thats 190+53 or 6 more expansions
9 ----------- 36-38------ 220 --------- 6 --------- 78​

​

Nice work, you inspired me to finish the work I was doing in this area which is now part of my guide, under town design by era. I did include a max provinces column as well based on the 10-20 provinces that has been stated as reasonable for skilled/active players.

I do not envy anyone the challenge of going through 1 or more guest races with only the tech expansion increases. The pain of downsizing and/or missing out on certain things will be difficult.

 

[DeletedUser4417]

i did not "turn around" nor move goal poasts, nor am i adding on stipulations. when i said "name 5" i was asking you to name 5 which met the stipulations YOU provided, which were:

This is YOUR post.

OFTEN? name FIVE such instances, off the top of your head. It should be easy if such an occurence happens "often." Your refusal or inability to do so will directly indicate that you are pulling things "out of thin air" as you suggest others were doing.

Note that in there you did not ask for/ stipulate anything BUT.. Five instances in reference to games implementing upgrades in stages. You changed the goalposts when, after replying and that was unacceptable to you, you added in the stipulation about the upgrade affecting combat. That IS changing the goalposts.

but i think that if you state that this happened once, c 1999-2000 that you should be able to tell us

I remember the event, not the specifics of it. That was over 14 years ago and I doubt YOU remember the exact specifics that far back. It was freaking trivial. It happened, they fixed it, the game went on, life moved on. Now you are reaching in some vain attempt to support your flailing argument.

even if there were, it would support my point- as your claim that said systems are "OFTEN implemented in stages into live games" - this would be ONE example in one game that happened 16 to 17 YEARS AGO. what does this tell us? while we cannot directly infer that such was the case, it is likely, considering that there have been no such "2 stage deployments of an upgrade" since, that verant/sony/whoeverownsitnow realised this was not a good idea- otherwise it would have happened again.

Actually it does not support your argument in the least as several things are in play that you conveniently overlook:

1) Further upgrades were not as massive
2) A change in coding platforms
3) A change in direction
4) More stable technology

your initial claim of such OFTEN happening was the bandwagon fallacy. even if other games did it, does not make it a good idea- which is what you are indirectly suggesting by offering up such fabricated information.

*Chuckle* Funny how when your argument derails because examples were supplied, examples that you asked for, that now you spit and sputter. You claim it's not a good idea and yet all evidence to the contrary. These companies and games do it and continue to thrive despite your 'opinion' to the contrary.

 

[DeletedUser2753]

Nice work, you inspired me to finish the work I was doing in this area which is now part of my guide, under town design by era. I did include a max provinces column as well based on the 10-20 provinces that has been stated as reasonable for skilled/active players.

Thanks

As I said the above would not have been possible without you and Soggy's work and help. I also highly recommend your guide. Great work https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/mykans-guide-to-elvenar.3966/ <- just click above on Mykan's signature, Mykans Guide