• Dear forum visitor,

    It looks as though you have not registered for a forum account, or are not signed in. In order to participate in current discussions or create new threads, you will need to register for a forum account by clicking on the link below.

    Click here to register for a forum account!

    If you already have a forum account, you can simply click on the 'Log in' button at the top right of your forum screen.

    Your Elvenar Team

Autofight Fails

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
With an event on, my tourney schedule has gone to hell trying to sync encounters with quests. Since I'm doing them in small clusters whenever the event lady dictates, I've decided to continue the observations of AI controlling my stacks autofighting from last tourney, and BOY, IS IT NOT PRETTY! This is the second week of observations. I'm concluding there's no actual "best matchup" preference coded into units when they autofight.

Note: Units are lined up across from best matchup scenario and generally require them to just walk straight ahead if no terrain obstacles in place. In the examples below, there were no obstacles or another unit blocking their "ideal" targets.

Mage Fail.png

Expectations: Archer/Cerebus targets mages. Mages nerf sterlings.
Fail: Cerebus went after sterlings. Mages went after mages.

Mages versus Puppies.png

Expectations: Mages target sterlings and orc deserters. Cerebus targets abbot.
Fail: Mages went after war dog and got MAULED. Cerebus went after sterlings and orc deserters.

Archer Fail.png

Expectations: Archers target mages. Sorceress targets heavy range.
Fail: Sorceress went after mages. Archers went after...orc deserter :( :( :( :( :rolleyes: This one baffles me the most. It's bonkers. Archers have the first go at everyone so things like extent of damage on an existing units (if that is a variable) is not in play. Also, he couldn't even reach the orc deserter on his first turn. He could have walked straight up to hit a mage, but instead walked straight up and turned left to SKIP A TURN not shooting at anything!!! Of the 4 different unit types to select from, the archer actually skipped a turn to go after the worst matchup. I'm so disappointed in you, archer. Taking leisurely strolls and skipping turns doing nothing are expected from those treant bums, but I expected more out of you!
 

Fayeanne

Well-Known Member
I wonder...if the AI is programmed to attempt to eliminate counter-units first? (Maybe this is why people have long recommended using only one unit type if using the AI.) Maybe the thinking of the AI is if there is one counter-unit and a bunch of units you are specialized against, go after the counter-unit first while the other guys peck away at you (since usually you'll have defenses against them)...

It's possible the main failure is the AI not taking into account that there might be another ally around who is better suited to take out that counter-unit.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
You want to know a secret about troop placement? Your placement from top to bottom is not in order of the slots from 1-5, it is 1, 3, 5, 4, 2. In other words, your first slot is the top spot, the second slot is the bottom spot, etc. This only matters when not using all of the same troop, but can be huge when mixing troops in auto-fight.

Also, it seems the worst of the AI decisions for your troops can happen on the first turn. So manually controlling your troops until after the enemy makes their first move, and then clicking auto-fight, will make a big difference. Especially if the terrain is against you.
 

Gkyr

Chef
Go with what Fayeanne and E.A. suggest. It is time-proven. Otherwise, you will drive yourself bat scat.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
I wonder...if the AI is programmed to attempt to eliminate counter-units first? (Maybe this is why people have long recommended using only one unit type if using the AI.)
I've read about this "fight with only one type of unit" strategy, but have never implemented it because it seems so odd. If there are 3 different class types, which one do you got all in with? Also, is this autofight strategy good in all scenarios or only if you have 2UUUs or a dwarven amorer down and a fed chicken? I'm currently observing plain vanilla scenarios where AI is bare knuckling it without buffs to eliminate as many variables, just AI in all its glorious tomfoolery.

You want to know a secret about troop placement? Your placement from top to bottom is not in order of the slots from 1-5, it is 1, 3, 5, 4, 2. In other words, your first slot is the top spot, the second slot is the bottom spot, etc. This only matters when not using all of the same troop, but can be huge when mixing troops in auto-fight.

Also, it seems the worst of the AI decisions for your troops can happen on the first turn. So manually controlling your troops until after the enemy makes their first move, and then clicking auto-fight, will make a big difference. Especially if the terrain is against you.
If you place them across the unit picker, they end up top to bottom (from view of battle board) as 4, 2, 1, 3, 5 (from wiki).

I have noticed after the battle, when it displays the Victory or Defeat screen, it re-arranges the order from how they were picked. For example, the first 2 screenshots were from battle results, as you can see the unit damage. The last screenshot is from the unit pick screen pre-battle. Matchups are lined up properly pre-battle, but gets scrambled post-battle. I was mindful about positioning when selecting units so ideal positioning was accounted for during this experiment.
Battlefield.png


Go with what Fayeanne and E.A. suggest. It is time-proven. Otherwise, you will drive yourself bat scat.
I generally autofight and don't watch. If I manual fight, I'll still autofight the end and skip to results without watching. This is for curiosity and science :)
 

CrusaderMichael

Active Member
(deletes my post i was about to send about troop placement) haha... i thought maybe mobile was different than pc or something. But ok, we're good now.

i see nothing wrong with the troops you used. I can only guess the wonky ai issue, and maybe terrain. I forget what it was but i read something about ai often going after higher initiatives first but even that wouldn't apply here.

Also i had no idea such lopsided squads (your squads being so much smaller) could be winnable. Jacked up wonders i guess?

This game could really use a few "our troop" AI options cuz "dumb" isn't really fun
 

DeletedUser27062

Guest
I wonder...if the AI is programmed to attempt to eliminate counter-units first? (Maybe this is why people have long recommended using only one unit type if using the AI.) Maybe the thinking of the AI is if there is one counter-unit and a bunch of units you are specialized against, go after the counter-unit first while the other guys peck away at you (since usually you'll have defenses against them)...

It's possible the main failure is the AI not taking into account that there might be another ally around who is better suited to take out that counter-unit.
I wondered about this when @crackie referenced another fight here that went decidedly pear-shaped...
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
Also i had no idea such lopsided squads (your squads being so much smaller) could be winnable. Jacked up wonders i guess?
I should add I have a lvl 26 Needles and a lvl 16 monastery, which I'm not quite willing to unlink for this experiment lol. I'll sacrifice some troops (and my lunch) over this, but I gotta be able to make them back in time. That battle with 3 mages/2 HR is an easy battle manual fighting despite unfavorable numbers because it'll be 5 vs 2 after the first round with my archers snipering down all the mages. Hence, extra painful watching it go to hell on autofight.

@Eudaemonia I think that's prob why all my autofight-only teammates despise the sorceress unit so much! My hunch is AI prioritize mages to just hit at everyone so mage units won't be used in a targeted group kill. Archers kinda have this hive mind and will all go after a same target to finish him off together.

The only consistent favorable matchups I've noticed are (1) war dogs will definitely go after your mages first and (2) ancient orcs will also go after your archers and mages first too. They also treat blossom mages differently than sorceress and banshees. They target blossom almost as ardently as an archer.
 

StarLoad

Well-Known Member
I have used the AutoFight up to Province 20 and most often to round 6. I will almost always use a single troop across all spots that will cover at least 4 of the enemy troops
See pics using Fire chicken being fed and nothing else.

Ai1.jpg

Ai2.jpg

Losses, yes but nothing to worry about and easy to replace
Ai3.jpg

Ai4.jpg

Note the mages are only 2* but being blossom mages they just rock, so Yes use if you can a single troop line for that keeps the AI from going "Wonky"
 

StarLoad

Well-Known Member
Crackie, one thing that many forget is that there are some major differences in troops between Elf and Human and one of the big ones is Mortar vs Golem and having cities that have both I can tell you I KNOW how bad the Mortars are and how good the 3* Golems are. As far as the Needles goes that only helps the "Light Ranged - Archers and Dryads and Rangers".
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
Crackie, one thing that many forget is that there are some major differences in troops between Elf and Human and one of the big ones is Mortar vs Golem and having cities that have both I can tell you I KNOW how bad the Mortars are and how good the 3* Golems are. As far as the Needles goes that only helps the "Light Ranged - Archers and Dryads and Rangers".

The problem is the Mortars have way too huge of a damage range, so you could go on a big winning streak with them by getting near max damage over and over. Or with the minimum damage so low, they could lose a fight against troops they are good against.

As for Elf versus Human, don't forget that the Elf barracks mage is the worst of all the mages in the game. Elf mages at 3 stars will lose fights that 2 star banshees or blossoms will win.
 

StarLoad

Well-Known Member
...
As for Elf versus Human, don't forget that the Elf barracks mage is the worst of all the mages in the game. Elf mages at 3 stars will lose fights that 2 star banshees or blossoms will win.
The Bud Sorceress is fodder in low-level battles, but I focus and use Blossom Mages at all other times, and win in almost every case. Adding the 3* frogs is just about an auto-win up to province 20
 

ElfGunn

Well-Known Member
I play exclusively on the mobile app (I don't even know how to get on from PC), so I am limited to auto fight. I'm Elven, btw.

So am I understanding this correctly, that I should just use my Elite archers (3*, +4 against mages and heavy melee) for all five squads? Because they will get off the first shot?

I have been matching my best/strongest troops against each type of enemy troop, in order from left to right.
 

DeletedUser27062

Guest
I play exclusively on the mobile app (I don't even know how to get on from PC), so I am limited to auto fight. I'm Elven, btw.

So am I understanding this correctly, that I should just use my Elite archers (3*, +4 against mages and heavy melee) for all five squads? Because they will get off the first shot?

I have been matching my best/strongest troops against each type of enemy troop, in order from left to right.

Yes, it's better to stick to a single troop type.

I've noticed that you can mix individual units (banshee & blossom mage etc) and the algo doesn't spit the dummy like it does if you mix troop types.
 

Fayeanne

Well-Known Member
Just to clarify what some others have said: The first unit you pick (on the left in the display) goes smack dab in the center of your unit lineup in battle. The next two units are the most forward units, meaning they are 1 tile closer to the enemy, so sometimes it is helpful to put your shorter-ranged (or beefier) things here. The last two are on the ends of the lineup.

The unit order on the victory/defeat screen appears to be based on initiative. In other words, the order they are displayed in the "Round" at the bottom of the screen during battle. Sadly, this is true also of multi-wave battles in the Spire. Which makes it pretty hard to organize your units properly for the second and third and etc. waves...
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
As far as the Needles goes that only helps the "Light Ranged - Archers and Dryads and Rangers".
Haha, yes they only buff light ranged, but I need it to boost my barracks production or else my stacks will suddenly take forever!

I will almost always use a single troop across all spots that will cover at least 4 of the enemy troops
I paid extra attention to enemy type spread this round to see if there was enough overlap to go with one unit type to cover 4 enemy troops and you are right. It can be done! As you've said, it won't be the most conservative (troop loss mitigation) way to go about it, but will get the job done if you have the troops to spare.

The Bud Sorceress is fodder in low-level battles, but I focus and use Blossom Mages at all other times, and win in almost every case. Adding the 3* frogs is just about an auto-win up to province 20
I love Blossom Mages too! However, I have a lot of love for Bud Sorceress as well. She has a lot of use manual fighting, especially if you're going for max troops saved. Wednesdays are brutal on my troops since I need to get 2 rounds of tourney in or else I won't get them to 6* since I don't have all the fancy toys like Polar Bear and Timewarp yet. On top of that, I have the second half of the Lab in the Spire to fight too. I can't one-shot kill heavy range units in the higher provinces or the Lab. Even witih a fed chicken, it takes at least 3 hits to take one down. Therefore, I'll opt for the hit & nerf knowing the enemy will get at least 2 shots in before I can kill him. Since my Blossoms are still level 1, the only mage I have that can nerf is Bud Sorceress. My other troops are very thankful for taking 2 rounds of nerfed attacked from the enemy versus taking the full brunt, especially since they got 2 rounds of tourney and Lab to fight on the same day!

The unit order on the victory/defeat screen appears to be based on initiative. In other words, the order they are displayed in the "Round" at the bottom of the screen during battle. Sadly, this is true also of multi-wave battles in the Spire. Which makes it pretty hard to organize your units properly for the second and third and etc. waves...
Ah ha! That explains it. I noticed my troops seem to show up wherever they want in the second and third wave sometimes.
 

StarLoad

Well-Known Member
...

I paid extra attention to enemy type spread this round to see if there was enough overlap to go with one unit type to cover 4 enemy troops and you are right. It can be done! As you've said, it won't be the most conservative (troop loss mitigation) way to go about it, but will get the job done if you have the troops to spare.
...
Actually it will likely have lower troop losses as the wonky AI wont think whom to fight whom, and just fire away. I have tried to compare my manual fighting by watching the battle to its end with the auto complete on and dont think that the losses are worse, or not that much more.
 
Top