Cross-tier trades

[DeletedUser19458]

Further, the assumption that large players automatically have enough neighbours to take any random 100k trade they offer (let alone 12) is flawed.

Bingo!

I have 1 whole single neighbour who can do trades resembling quantities I care about, and he has same boost as me. So my trades are exclusively within my FS (not counting neighbourhood trades I take just because)

Price I pay for choosing to live on the edge of the map

 

[Bethanne Rainbow]

I came into this conversation late. What does cross tier mean?
Thanks

 

[Iyapo1]

I came into this conversation late. What does cross tier mean?
Thanks

In the begining.... you have three tiers of goods T1(steel marble plank), T2 (scrolls, silk, crystal), T3 ( gems, dust, elixer). A cross tier trade is a trade where a player trades across tiers, gems for steel or scrolls for planks.

None of the comments here apply to new cities. It is virtually impossible for a player to balance out tier production until around chapter 4. I have never been in any FS that did not understand and support little city cross trades.

 

[SoggyShorts]

None of the comments here apply to new cities. It is virtually impossible for a player to balance out tier production until around chapter 4. I have never been in any FS that did not understand and support little city cross trades.

Indeed, as long as they understand it's a limited time thing.

 

[Bethanne Rainbow]

In the begining.... you have three tiers of goods T1(steel marble plank), T2 (scrolls, silk, crystal), T3 ( gems, dust, elixer). A cross tier trade is a trade where a player trades across tiers, gems for steel or scrolls for planks.

None of the comments here apply to new cities. It is virtually impossible for a player to balance out tier production until around chapter 4. I have never been in any FS that did not understand and support little city cross trades.

Thank you!

 

[Darielle]

I was once in a fellowship called Cross Tier Pirates, and they encouraged cross tier trading. I left because most of the players weren't active enough, but the AM and one other player were fantastic. I wish I could have stayed, but I wanted more. I still do, lol. Is there such a thing as a perfect fellowship? If I could find one where most players are as addicted as I am, I'd be in heaven. Heck, we only have a 300 minimum in the tourney, and even that's not enforced, grrr. Sorry, I'm getting off topic here. To get back on track, there are a few fellowships that encourage cross tiers, but not many. I can understand the balance issue, but I really don't think this is a big deal. If you don't like a trade, don't take it. The only thing that bothers me is if people flood the market. If they put up one or two cross tier, I could not care less.

 

[DarkKitty]

Coming in late, but I wanted to point out that the issue people may have with these cross-tier trades, isn't the cross-tier part; it's the "tit-for-tat" part. 100 steel for 100 gems, etc. 3rd tier is more expensive to produce than 1st. (The details may be debatable but generally, the cost is higher.)

If you have 3 pencils, 3 books and 3 Macbook Pros you can't expect people to trade a Mac for one of the pencils and consider it reasonable. That's because of the actual values involved and not the number of goods. I can see how those trades would cause some friction.

However, if the trade is reasonably fair, I don't see a problem.

 

[Bethanne Rainbow]

Coming in late, but I wanted to point out that the issue people may have with these cross-tier trades, isn't the cross-tier part; it's the "tit-for-tat" part. 100 steel for 100 gems, etc. 3rd tier is more expensive to produce than 1st. (The details may be debatable but generally, the cost is higher.)

If you have 3 pencils, 3 books and 3 Macbook Pros you can't expect people to trade a Mac for one of the pencils and consider it reasonable. That's because of the actual values involved and not the number of goods. I can see how those trades would cause some friction.

However, if the trade is reasonably fair, I don't see a problem.

My fellowship only does 2-3 star trades.
Bethanne

 

[KarlD]

Is there such a thing as a perfect fellowship? If I could find one where most players are as addicted as I am, I'd be in heaven.

I'm in pretty much the perfect fellowship. We always get 10 tourney chests and we very consistently get the gold Spire trophy. I'm not a big fan of the Fellowship Adventures and it's great that we only do one path for each stage to get the main rewards, but don't go crazy. Trading is great and there's usually someone who can take trades pretty quickly. There's a rule to keep cross-tier trades to a minimum, but there's no outright ban or requirement to agree on a cross-tier trade in advance. As far as I know there haven't been any issues with cross-tier trades in the fs. Folks are supportive and helpful and there is minimal drama. It's about as perfect as perfect gets.

 

[BrinDarby]

I can see advantages to certain ppl only producing 1 good, it just all depends on the overall strategy of balancing goods. It really doesn't matter if this is in a FS or both inside a FS and with local trade. I believe its debatable and I personally believe as tiers progress its actually easier to produce goods.... So yes Tier 1 is the harderst/most innefficient....

Cross-tier or not to cross-tier, really has no bearing on a set # of stars for a rule.....
Inno sets the value tier-tier, therefore there is a distinct value of any of the 9 goods.
Right now thats (1) Tier 3 = (1.5) Tier 2 = (2.25) Tier 1 ...... Untill Inno changes what
is currently the value of each....... the system still uses "stars" ... any 2 star trade is
basically a 1:1 swap of goods...... whether or not its the same or cross tier......

Allowing cross tier trading allows maximum flexibility in effective trading ....

 

[samidodamage]

no bearing on a set # of stars for a rule.....

You are absolutely correct. Any FS can have any rule it wants, regardless of whether it makes sense to you, me, or anybody else. The solution is to determine what rules you agree with and join an FS with those rules. Much easier than joining an FS where you disagree with the rules and then trying to change them.

 

[NightshadeCS]

The problem with accepting cross-tier trades in a world where a lot of people ignore cross-tier trades is that you cannot in turn post cross-tier and expect to get yourself evened-out.

Perhaps over time, things will change a bit. I am happy to take cross tier trades from a city in the first 5 chapters or so, where your balance of goods can fluctuate drastically. In the later chapters, I just got used to the fact that I had way more tier 2 than the other tiers. I could still afford my research and catering fees through normal production and same-tier trading, so I try not to let the imbalance bother me.

Either that, or I use MM on my T1 and T3, set them for 3 hours, my T2 to 9 hours, and play that way until I reach a balance.

 

[ajqtrz]

Coming in late, but I wanted to point out that the issue people may have with these cross-tier trades, isn't the cross-tier part; it's the "tit-for-tat" part. 100 steel for 100 gems, etc. 3rd tier is more expensive to produce than 1st. (The details may be debatable but generally, the cost is higher.)

If you have 3 pencils, 3 books and 3 Macbook Pros you can't expect people to trade a Mac for one of the pencils and consider it reasonable. That's because of the actual values involved and not the number of goods. I can see how those trades would cause some friction.

However, if the trade is reasonably fair, I don't see a problem.

Actually, if you are trying to write a note and the electricity is out and your Mac Book Pro battery dead and if your life or somebody's life depended on that note being written, you might very well trade the Mac Book Pro for the pencil. The situation you find yourself in determines the value of the trades you would or would not make. There is no intrinsic worth in anything because value resides in the agent evaluating the transaction.

"Reasonable" is the problem. We have an artificial game restriction on the "reasonbable-ness" of the trades we can make. Anything artificial will eventually cross swords with reality as reality always seeks ways for the transaction to be satisfying to all parties. Sadly, the game devs seek to bring their values into play against the perceived value the players experience and in doing so needlessly tax the whole system as players who need things and can purchase them at X are told that X is too little even if they know of other players who say they will take X for their goods. When transactions don't happen it's a hidden tax on the system ("tax" meaning it is something which taxes the speed of movement).

AJ

 

[KarlD]

I think this whole issue about the fairness of cross-tier trades comes about because of the nature of this game. It is more of a cooperative game than an adversarial one. Because we work together to help each other grow there is an underlying feeling that our dealings with one another should be "fair". If somebody tries to grow their city by building all T3 and no T1 or T2 they are really growing their city at the expense of others. In order to maintain overall balance in goods others have to overproduce lower tier goods and whatever benefit there was to building T3 and avoiding T1 and T2 is lost to them. Yes, it happens sometimes that you do a tech or upgrade that wipes out your goods and you have to trade with what you have, but if you're city is designed to be imbalanced then that might not sit well with a lot of people who feel you are trying to take advantage of them.

I really don't see much advantage to focusing on building higher tier factories because as a city grows I would think it becomes unsustainable to trade for lower tier goods. People must stop taking the trades because they just don't have have the need or ability keep trading lower tier for T3 goods since they are probably already producing the T3 goods they need. Then the frustration of having to wait long times to get the lower tier goods they need might drive then to build lower tier factories. Also the events have many quests that require production of T1 goods. The ability to do well in events can also be very helpful in growing a city since many event buildings are far better than buildings we can get outside the events.

 

[Iyapo1]

if your life or somebody's life depended on that note being written, you might very well trade the Mac Book Pro for the pencil.

Yes I would make that trade, and I would bitterly curse the person I made the deal with for years, possibly decades! Stay away from your examples AJ they tend to end badly. Price gouging is not okay just because needs must.

 

[ajqtrz]

Yes I would make that trade, and I would bitterly curse the person I made the deal with for years, possibly decades! Stay away from your examples AJ they tend to end badly. Price gouging is not okay just because needs must.

"Gouging" is only a word used to say you don't like the trade. But if you made it you liked it well enough to think at the time the value was what it was at the time. Thus it was a "fair" bargain at the time even if you didn't like it in the long run. On the other hand, suppose you just liked the pencil more than the Mac Book Pro? Would it be gouging if you didn't feel compelled to make the trade? I was once brought an IBM concentrator (what IBM called their hubs in the early days of universal networking). It's street value was around 3,000. The person who brought it in wanted cash for it and since I knew he had just closed his business and owned the thing (I serviced it) I offered him $2500 but he would have to wait for the cash. He asked me how much cash I had and took the $500 I had on hand. I told him, and meant it, that I'd pay him the rest the next day, but he never came back. Did I gouge him or was it a "fair" trade as I didn't have the resources on hand to give him the street value? We both, I'm sure, didn't feel the transaction was quite what we would have liked it to be, but both, on the other hand, made the transaction as the best we could do under the circumstances. In my book it was fair because I knew he knew what I was willing but unable to pay, and fair, in his mind, because he knew that AND he got the cash he needed immediately.

One of the reasons the markets are not "fair" here is that they are too simple in their measurement of the transaction itself. Often "intangibles" are as important, and sometimes more important, in a transaction than the tangible things. So to simply measure the "fairness" of a transaction by some kind of calculation that ignores all the complexities of the market and the transactions circumstances, is, in itself, sometimes "unfair" to those making the trade.

AJ

 

[mucksterme]

Indeed, as long as they understand it's a limited time thing.

this

i've twice been in FS's that took in a bunch of new cities at once
both times i was one of the new cities
the established cities did zero trades to help the newbies get started
and both times there was that one newbie who decided they could just take advantage forever

 

[Kekune]

Gouging" is only a word used to say you don't like the trade. But if you made it you liked it well enough to think at the time the value was what it was at the time. Thus it was a "fair" bargain at the time even if you didn't like it in the long run.

This is a weird example... but ok. Yes, this is terribly unfair to take someone's MacBook under duress because they needed a pencil to save someone's life.

Sure, from a purely capitalist perspective your valuation of the trade holds up. But I think many of us would rather Elvenar be the kind of world where someone says, "You need to borrow a pencil? Sure, take mine."

 

[Darielle]

I'm in pretty much the perfect fellowship. We always get 10 tourney chests and we very consistently get the gold Spire trophy. I'm not a big fan of the Fellowship Adventures and it's great that we only do one path for each stage to get the main rewards, but don't go crazy. Trading is great and there's usually someone who can take trades pretty quickly. There's a rule to keep cross-tier trades to a minimum, but there's no outright ban or requirement to agree on a cross-tier trade in advance. As far as I know there haven't been any issues with cross-tier trades in the fs. Folks are supportive and helpful and there is minimal drama. It's about as perfect as perfect gets.

Sounds like you have a great one.

 

[Ashrem]

"Gouging" is only a word used to say you don't like the trade. But if you made it you liked it well enough to think at the time the value was what it was at the time. Thus it was a "fair" bargain at the time

Come on, AJ, there's a wide divide in vocabulary between worthwhile and fair. Giving my life to save someone I love is worthwhile, not fair. Trading your computer for a pencil to save a life is worthwhile not fair (because the person with the pencil is a complete ahole who should have volunteered the pencil to save a person's life). Taking a deal that involves a badly uneven exchange of resources because you feel like you've been backed into a corner and are going to lose other resources if you don't take it is worthwhile, not fair.

Players use the word unfair a lot. Inno never does. The use "fair" to indicate nothing but whether the exchange of resources is equal. They label trades with whether they represent an even, or uneven (both good and bad) exchange of resources. "Unfair" does not appear in the trade vocabulary. A lot of players have chosen to call trades that represent a negative uneven exchange of resources as unfair. That's not Inno's responsibility (though they facilitate it) and it's an opinion that players are allowed to have. Trying to convince other people that they shouldn't think of an uneven exchange of resources as unfair is neither productive nor righteous.