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    Your Elvenar Team

How would you change the Spire formula?

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
I meant linear as in all unlock techs are treated equal in the progression. It should be more stepped. As others have suggested for example, Advanced Scouts, which indicates a new chapter, should prob be weighted more than a meaningless culture tech. Same with factories and military buildings.
That sounds like a better situation than a flat almost half percent per required tech, but it's still the same as compound interest and no matter what, the longer it is applied, the faster the increase. A lower interest rate part of the time just increases how long it will take before it overrides all other factors. Again, it's really only a problem for players in the upper chapters.
hi, with the new 4 star units, staying in chapter 16 is still the most profitable for tournaments? did someone do the math?
They have helped a bit, but not really enough. I don't really know how the math would be done. For myself, that doesn't matter since playing the chapters is what the game is all about. If I stopped at a chapter just to do better in tourneys, I'd quit the game. And I still do well in tourneys. Placed 2nd today. <pats self on back>.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
hi, with the new 4 star units, staying in chapter 16 is still the most profitable for tournaments? did someone do the math?
The units they offered 4 star promotions for in chapter 18 are not the units I mainly use. In either my elven or human cities. Personally I am staying in ch 16 and waiting to see what unit promotions are available in ch 19 when it comes out. Give me 4 star Priests, Frogs, Blossom Mages, or Rangers and that is a goal worth shooting for. If any of those pop up when ch 19 is released I will resume my advance through the tech tree.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
The units they offered 4 star promotions for in chapter 18 are not the units I mainly use.
I actually use the barrack's archers a good bit in the lower 30 provs, sometimes higher. The orc strats are very useful, especially when the mist walker is around They are also great for all LR. You just need to have enough orcs to train them. However I never use the drone rider except to peek at the arena when there are mist walkers.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
I guess that depends on your definition of profitable. Even with the expansions and AW levels added and research done, I can just as easily get 5000 tournament points at the end of chapter 18 as I did at the end of chapter 15.
Are you also topping the spire every week? Honest question. There is a big difference between doing strong in both every week or between focusing on tournament at the expense of spire.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
I actually use the barrack's archers a good bit in the lower 30 provs, sometimes higher. The orc strats are very useful, especially when the mist walker is around They are also great for all LR. You just need to have enough orcs to train them. However I never use the drone rider except to peek at the arena when there are mist walkers.
The 4 star promotion for Archers would be good in my elven city. But it would not be nearly as good in my 2 human cities. I do not think Crossbowmen would be a top tier unit even with a 4 star promotion.
 

Deborah M

Oh Wise One
The units they offered 4 star promotions for in chapter 18 are not the units I mainly use. In either my elven or human cities. Personally I am staying in ch 16 and waiting to see what unit promotions are available in ch 19 when it comes out. Give me 4 star Priests, Frogs, Blossom Mages, or Rangers and that is a goal worth shooting for. If any of those pop up when ch 19 is released I will resume my advance through the tech tree.

I understand that you are following advice others have given backed up by statistical analysis. I just want to advise that if you decide you want to advance through chapters 17 & 18 to move through chapter 19 you will probably be looking at a year or so to catch up. You may also find some of the upgraded troops become more favorable to you. I agree with @Enevhar Aldarion that battling doesn’t seem harder to me either. I had to change some of my city focus to troops but I did that along the way. This week I easily did 5000+ in the tournament and topped the spire. I have completed chapter 18 also.
 

free-spirit

Well-Known Member
I do not want anything changed. I'm sure it would not benefit us in the long run. I've become accustomed to the new formula. I used to be #1 or #2 in the Tournaments weekly, and that's impossible now because it's so expensive, but I can do 8500-9000 weekly and still finish the Spire. I'm end of Chapter 18 with all of the expansions and almost all of the wonders to level 30.

I'm sure it's nicer for other players to see different people topping the Tournament charts each week rather than the same 4 or 5.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
I had to change some of my city focus to troops but I did that along the way.
That is pretty much what I am doing now. I am currently very focusing on upgrading my military AWs. I went from brand new cities to finishing chapter 15 in roughly 17 months. I mostly do not regret moving through the game so quickly. But it did mean I had less time to upgrade my AWs than a player who took a more measured approach would have had. Now I am making up for that.
 

Deborah M

Oh Wise One
@Henroo I am one of those silly players who flew through each chapter and then had to wait months for the next one. That is until the last 2. They decided that ridiculous quantities = challenge to slow everyone down. Even with a big blue city I still just recently finished chapter 18. Just food for thought. The last few chapters have been slow enough that I made a lot of progress on changing my focus.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
@Deborah M I understand. But what I really need is the motivation to try. I always knew the 3 star promotions for Rangers and Frogs happened in chapter 15 and I knew I wanted them. So I kept pushing hard through chapters until I got them. They were the big shiny prize I wanted to get. And I got it. Right now there is nothing like that on the horizon. But when a 4 star promotion for one of my favorite units does pop up, I will have a new big shiny prize to work towards. Once that happens I will probably lock in on it and will resume moving through the game in a very focused manner. That's the way my mind works. But I understand not everyone thinks the same way.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
Are you also topping the spire every week? Honest question. There is a big difference between doing strong in both every week or between focusing on tournament at the expense of spire.

I currently don't do the entire Spire every week, because of time limitations, not because of cost, but for a long stretch I was completing the Spire and doing 5000 in the tournament every week. That is auto-fighting all but maybe one or two encounters. Military AWs are only between level 11 and 17. Fire Phoenix. And only put out one each of the temp troop boost buildings. I feed my Brown Bear maybe once a month and never time boost troop production except when it is fed.
 

Deleted User - 1178646

Guest
Personally, I would go back to the prior version and then adust for the small thing that can add to its difficulty, without using items that make it harder as you progress, such as adding an expansion or completing a chapter.

There never was an old spire formula, we already noticed the issues when the spire was introduced and were afraid the next step would be the tournaments, they said there were no plans for that, wel a year leater our fear became reality.

I have said before the best way to balance spire tournaments now and in the future would be with "invisible values" tied to mandatory research.
The developers can then use the game data to set target points for each chapter and then divide the required points for that chapter on the reseach.

If the game data shows that a certain chapter over or underperforms on average they can simply adjust the hidden values to bring it back into line.
My main gripe with this solution is that you need people that can analyse the data properly. as we have seen the current people have no clue how to do a proper job analysing data.

A main example is that the comment that people with more wonders outperform those with fewer shortly after the introduction of this mightmare in the tournaments. while I am sure it's true, they never asked themselves why is that? is that;
a. because the formula is no issue?
b. because those players on average are the tournament tigers, have therefore build up there wonders more and because of that is a more active tournament group by default and therefore screw the short term data?

If you never asked yourself why something is like the way it is, never look at the underlying data and just look at data with a biased perception and look at the parts you like. then you will never be able to properly analyse data anyway.
Like al the comments about the trash the formula is coming from thin air. and sure it takes time for the metagame to change. just because you changed the rules doesn't mean how the game is played changes overnight.

Just like the moonstone library, it was obvious day one that building would destroy scroll players, but it wasn't an issue for the first few months, it needed time to escalate into a metagame where it was a nuke of epic proportions. it took these boneheads 2 years to do what we asked day 1.
they ignored our pleas, comments, suggestions, to wait, see it go down the drain, then ignore our solutions because they have better ones, have meetings for another year or so. to come to the conclusion that the 5 minute fix we asked for day one, was by far the best solution.

How could such incompetent people ever be in charge of any kind of balance? its like the blind leading the blind.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
How could such incompetent people ever be in charge of any kind of balance? its like the blind leading the blind.
Maybe we have this all wrong, and the problem lies with the executives,
and the Devs are just following orders just like the Mods do ... thats 2 layers
of ppl between the players and the problem.......

As long as the focus is increases in costs ( troops or resources ) rather than
increases in actual difficulty.... and scaled increases that make logical sense,
we as players won't be happy with anything we get from the Devs.......

While I agree with the longtime players, that progress shouldn't instantly
somehow be nerf'd away. ( 1 step fwd, 2 steps back )..... I do believe that
every player should be challanged..... Along with that, manual battle should
be avail to everyone, and auto battle should include "AI options" (focuses)

This is after all a City Building Game, so everything "fighting" really is
pretty much an minor sidebar ..... heh heh.
 

Deleted User - 1178646

Guest
Maybe we have this all wrong, and the problem lies with the executives,
and the Devs are just following orders just like the Mods do ... thats 2 layers
of ppl between the players and the problem.......

As long as the focus is increases in costs ( troops or resources ) rather than
increases in actual difficulty.... and scaled increases that make logical sense,
we as players won't be happy with anything we get from the Devs.......

While I agree with the longtime players, that progress shouldn't instantly
somehow be nerf'd away. ( 1 step fwd, 2 steps back )..... I do believe that
every player should be challanged..... Along with that, manual battle should
be avail to everyone, and auto battle should include "AI options" (focuses)

This is after all a City Building Game, so everything "fighting" really is
pretty much an minor sidebar ..... heh heh.
Not sure if you ever fought manually, it's fun for a battle or 2 but not for 400 battles.
There is a reason people use it so little, and there is a reason the ignored it on mobile, and even tried to cut it on the browser
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
I have said before the best way to balance spire tournaments now and in the future would be with "invisible values" tied to mandatory research.
The developers can then use the game data to set target points for each chapter and then divide the required points for that chapter on the reseach.
From the first time I saw you write this sentiment I've agreed. Balance across chapters instead of trying to do it across the entire set of them. There is no such thing as a silver bullet.
If the game data shows that a certain chapter over or underperforms on average they can simply adjust the hidden values to bring it back into line.
Of course people will complain or cheer every time a chapter is balanced, just like we do about every change in the game. So, nothing new there. It still sounds like the best solution, but can that make it far enough the food chain so the devs can actually do that. It probably will take another set of eyes to manage the balancing. Too bad beta is more about finding bugs than about quality of changes.
Maybe we have this all wrong, and the problem lies with the executives,
and the Devs are just following orders just like the Mods do ...
I've thought this at times too. You can only push the boss so far before you risk losing your job. But regardless of the reason, it's how it affects us at the bottom of the food chain that matters.
This is after all a City Building Game, so everything "fighting" really is
pretty much an minor sidebar ..... heh heh.
It's often made me chuckle that this is called a "City Building Game" yet the tourneys and now the spire seem so much more important than city quality. It's more about making a city for war. Paying much attention to beauty slows progress, which is fine with a lot of the players. Of course, it'd be hard (impossible actually) to make the players progress tied to city design since that is so subjective.
 

Deleted User - 1178646

Guest
Of course people will complain or cheer every time a chapter is balanced, just like we do about every change in the game. So, nothing new there. It still sounds like the best solution, but can that make it far enough the food chain so the devs can actually do that. It probably will take another set of eyes to manage the balancing. Too bad beta is more about finding bugs than about quality of changes.

Changes can be made slowly that way no one gets the wiser.
There is no "formula" you can find out so nobody really knows the difficulty per chapter, you can just make small adjustments when nessesary.
The idea behind it, the outcome ain't fixed in stone like with a fixed formula, you make adjustments based on what you see develop over time.

Off course it all depends on how you analyse the data and what goals you set. after that it's just a matter of making sure the goals are met.
You need to split the general data into several datapoints and compare those datapoints to the set goal. for example tourney / spire ignoring people should be filtered out (and yes I call a 60 points chapter 15 account an ignorer). you need an average of average active tourney players and high achivers. then based on the goals you set for both you try to find the best balance to reach both goals.

At least this way you can "guarantee" that improvements are always improvements
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
@CrazyWizard ,
If you both used stats from elvenstats and poll'd say 2-300 players.
enough data could be collected to reverse-engineer whatever
current formula is being used. If it were somehow randomized,
then by now more than a few ppl wouldda complained about
hitting a bad stretch of RNG...
 

Deleted User - 1178646

Guest
@CrazyWizard ,
If you both used stats from elvenstats and poll'd say 2-300 players.
enough data could be collected to reverse-engineer whatever
current formula is being used. If it were somehow randomized,
then by now more than a few ppl wouldda complained about
hitting a bad stretch of RNG...
No you will not be able, you might find out eventually the hidden number of each research
But you need to put really good attention to find out that some numbers changed a little bit.

Lets say there is a total value of 1700 points divided over 17 chapters, would you notice week to week that it became 1696 or 1704?
And then to find out where it changed you need to check (read research an monitor all research again) an insurmountable task.

Small gradual changes are never noticed as long as you do not make big jumps over a very short time
 
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