Hybrid City

[Mighty Peach]

Just going to put together some of my thoughts and goals. Feel free to chime in. Looking for any input whatsoever.

I am at the end of Fairies and am very active. I do full Spire every week and usually 3.5k tourney points. I am very happy with this. And I would like to sustain this going forward but I want to do it more efficiently if I can. That's where some of your input may help me do it even better.

I mostly negotiate in the Spire. I do use the Spire wizard for assistance. I understand it has its limitations but it's also useful so I use it more as an assistive tool. To me the major problem with the Spire wizard is that it tries to end the negotiation in as little turns as possible. This is a big flaw in its design and it actually hinders you in the last round.

I mostly battle in the Tournament. This is where I want to improve. I mostly do automatic battles. I would like to switch over to manual to conserve more troops.

I think using the word hybrid is a bit of a stretch. More like 75% negotiate/25% battle. But battling has saved me a lot of resources and I want to get better at it.

My ancient wonders right now: Golden Abyss, Needles, Great Bell Spire, Watchtower Ruins, Dwarven Bulwark. I don't have any of evolving buildings that assist in battles right now. I do have a boatload of the temporary buildings because I constantly craft in the MA. But I am just hoarding those atm.

 

[Glandeh]

If you want to do more battles, you should probably want the Sanctuary/Martial Monastry wonder. It helps to preserve troops. I also like Dragon Abbey and Temple of the Toads, but they are beyond your reach atm (Sorcerers & Dragons chapter and Halflings chapter). These improve mages and heavy ranged troops. I prefer (long) ranged troops to melee as they can deal damage without fear of retalliation.
Craft the unit boosting buildings in the MA when you can (you probably do this already).

Have a look at the Sorcerer's Scrolls of Knowledge:

https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?forums/sorcerers-scrolls-of-knowledge.113/

Some excelent tips can be found there. And remember: practice makes perfect, but you can not always expect to win a battle without losses.

 

[kctanzen]

The often overlooked secondary effect of the Martial Monastery / Sanctuary is the absolute immense culture umbrella it opens for your city as it grows --- scales up based on a % of required culture and level of the wonder, topping out at 40% of the total required culture of your city.
Sadly however, it cannot be buffed with the lovely ensorcelled endowment spell or polished by neighbors, but it still packs a wallop of culture in a 5x5 footprint as your city grows up.

This will help caterers just as much as fighters since high culture bonus = more gold and supplies production. (Keep leveling your Watchtower Ruins, which has the same culture boost in a slightly smaller footprint and you can really save a lot of space with culture buildings, or have a huge surplus of culture to get loads of gold and supplies!)

 

[Iyapo]

If you are happy with your 3.5k, imo you are golden. Switching to manual battle will save you a lot of troops so I honestly don't think you will need to make any other changes.

This is a link to the battle help section in the forum; https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/battle-knowledge.31232/

It has some wonderful links that will help.

As @Glandeh mentioned the MM/Sanctuary is a great addition, also the fire phoenix pet(that can be crafted in the MA) will give you a lovely little boost when you feed it even at Evolution lv1.

 

[Mighty Peach]

So here's a battle I just manually fought, in the 1st round of province 14. I usually only complete 13 provinces. Now, my knowledge of picking troops and battle tactics is limited. But pointers are always welcome. There's no way I would have won this fighting on auto.

 

[crackie]

I mostly negotiate in the Spire. I do use the Spire wizard for assistance. I understand it has its limitations but it's also useful so I use it more as an assistive tool. To me the major problem with the Spire wizard is that it tries to end the negotiation in as little turns as possible. This is a big flaw in its design and it actually hinders you in the last round.

I don't use the Spire wizard because it takes too long if you already understand the logic behind the game Mastermind. However, I do point some new players that way because one of the best features of Spire Wizard is teaching people when to re-roll. The time when you need to re-roll the most is in the Lab. Knowing when to let that 3rd round go will save you a lot of resources because everything is the most expensive there. Many times, the math is simply against you. Trying to Hail Mary that last round is just flushing goods down the toilet. You're probably not going to get it and would need to start over anyway. Re-rolling saves you a round of resources. The first 2 sections of the Spire aren't really that cost prohibitive so the trick to mastering the Spire has always been about the Lab. Re-rolling is a critical part of your Lab toolkit.

My ancient wonders right now: Golden Abyss, Needles, Great Bell Spire, Watchtower Ruins, Dwarven Bulwark.

Besides missing the Sanctuary for culture that @kctanzen already mentioned, having a health boost will help with multi-wave fights in the Spire as well.

I am a big proponent of Needles. One thing autofighters can't observe is the fact that a LR can one-shot kill mages if they are boosted enough (talking about past the first few super easy provinces). It can't really be said of the other class types. This is true using just Needles before you even talk about feeding Fire Phoenix or dropping ELRs, and if you do feed Fire Phoenix and drop an ELR, it holds up even in the higher provinces. For example, maxing out Victory Springs, Toads, Dragon Abbey, or Heroes Forge still won't allow the other class types to KO anyone with just one shot in the higher provinces. Since you have access to Needles very early, you can start KO-ing mages sooner rather than later without need of other buffing. Plus, Needles also speeds up Barracks troop production and troop management is another essential part of mastering fighting in general.

I don't manual fight as much anymore since starting another city, but it is interesting to observe how the buffs do not act evenly across unit class types. Am curious myself how the new buffs will change the dynamics of the different class types, but not sure I have the time to do a deep dive and explore to find out. I nominate @samidodamage to pick up the mantle

I do have a boatload of the temporary buildings because I constantly craft in the MA. But I am just hoarding those atm.

This is the strategy I practice as well. I am not dropping buff buildings until I am can do more than 20 provinces in tourney, which first means I need more than 20 provinces scouted/completed. Hence, I never deployed them in the early chapters. My smallest city just started Orcs (...boooooo...) and I am starting to flip over to fighting instead of catering. I thought maybe I could flip to fighting sooner in Fairies instead of Orcs because I had access to a wonder society FS since chap 1 so my key wonders are already almost maxed, but nope...still couldn't make enough troops to fight Lab and 20 provinces.

 

[samidodamage]

@crackie
Deep dive not going to happen, lol! I enjoy manual combat, but not using melee units manually! It's slow enough without that.
I'm very biased towards ranged units. The new building makes my frogs happy. I'm all for keeping my frogs happy...
I do use melee units. Usually as part of spreading losses over different units/training bldgs. For example, if an encounter can be won by using either HR or HM (think mix of HR and LM enemies), I'll throw 5 Treants at it, hit autofight, and save the frogs for other scenarios. Those Treants replenish themselves via the PoP AW, so they're 'free' anyway. I placed the PoP mainly for the boost to sentient production, so free troops afaic.

 

[Gkyr]

@Yavimaya: these threads specifically address manual fighting (MF):

Manual Fighters' Thread

Brief intro: One of the different motivations to sign into Elvenar is to manually fight the battles on the hex board, although not too many players do this consistently for most of their battles. It is my primary motivation. I am thinking about starting this thread to see if their are any...

us.forum.elvenar.com

A brief note on the different Tourney series

First I would like to open by reproducing the succinct new Tourney opposing troop probabilities originally offered by @samidodamage (thank you, samidodamage): The higher probability enemy units by tourney now are: Marble: Heavy Melee Steel: Mage Planks: Light Range Crystal: Mage & Heavy Ranged...

us.forum.elvenar.com

I need stronger troops

I never did a lot of fighting before I mostly cater now I'm trying to do this spire and I can't get past the second portal. The main problem is I'm upgrading my camp, barracks and training grounds and now they're only taking three hours to make all the troops. The problem is I'm working 12 hours...

us.forum.elvenar.com

Steel Tournament: Advanced Battle Tactics

This post is to help Elves get over a defeat that stands in the way of progress in the Steel Tourney. Battle difficulty does not increase uniformly. The numeric ratios may increase from Tourney round to round and from Tourney province to province but success is a matter of habitual lineup...

us.forum.elvenar.com

 

[Mighty Peach]

@crackie Really appreciate your feedback. I overlooked The Sanctuary completely. It didn't look that appealing to me at 1st. But the culture in addition to the health boost when maxed does make it seem a lot more worthwhile. And you're spot on when negotiating that final round on the spire when the odds are extremely against you. I got much better at knowing when to reroll over time. I used to waste loads of goods trying for those final round miracles.

@Gkyr Thank you for posting those.

 

[Mykan]

So here's a battle I just manually fought, in the 1st round of province 14. I usually only complete 13 provinces. Now, my knowledge of picking troops and battle tactics is limited. But pointers are always welcome. There's no way I would have won this fighting on auto.

On auto, I would expect all priests to win that, vallorian vallor maybe (better with MM). The AI struggles with multiple troop selections. There are times it helps but as a general rule of thumb all of 1 type is best.

 

[Glandeh]

On auto, I would expect all priests to win that, vallorian vallor maybe (better with MM). The AI struggles with multiple troop selections. There are times it helps but as a general rule of thumb all of 1 type is best.

This looks like a pyrrhic victory to me, even more so now I see the number of squads you have left. Would have liked to see the battlefield. All priests has the disadvantage that you won't move first, but I would expect them to do the job. As you said Mighty Peach said he were a hybrid city, why not cater this?

 

[Gkyr]

Any victory is a good victory because our training facilities and time instants and supplies run deep, as far into the game as you seem to be @Mykan, especially since this expands the extent of your tourney beyond your usual. I am not used to fighting (MF) as a human but this is how I would critique your battle (terrain notwithstanding [I assume this is this week;s battle, i.e., dust, therefore few terrain obstructions]):

You are faced with Thornrose Mage, Enchantress, Ancient Orc, Orc Deserter and Cannoneer in positions 1-5, respectively. Their worst nightmares (in ranged troops) are Ranger, Ranger, Mortar (or Vallorian or Gruff Orc), Banshee, Banshee in positions 1-5, respectively. But I would put the Rangers in positions 4 and 5 to retreat them into the corners until round 2 for their protection. I'd put the HM or HR in the center (pos. 1) and the Banshees in 2 and 3. This is a classic nested position based on move initiative and it is especially useful if any hexes are blocking close in to your lineup. You placed your crossbow men at the center where they will get hit by the opposing Mages if they are unable to escape far enough to top and bottom. They are blocked from retreat by your Mages and HR.
Your Mages in positions 2 and 3 will nicely cover the enemy HR in their positions 4 and 5. I might choose the Gruff Orc or Vallorian as the center, since you do not have a golem.
Round 1 would consist of retreating your LR into the corners. Move next to them the Banshees but 1 will get hit by the Thornrose. The Deserter will advance without strike and the Cannoneer will hit one LR. Round 2 throw the two LR against the Mages and the Banshees against the Deserter; probably cannot reach the Cannon this round. Green Orc will attack something, LR?
Round 3 should finish off the enemy Mage to prevent spellcasting (Thornrose worse than Enchantress) and perhaps the Banshees should attack the Orc, rather than the Cannoneer; it is a matter of preference. Bring up the doddering Gruff Orc (or Vallorian) but he will threaten more than injure. Round 4 should be mopping up.
G

 

[Killy-]

For 3.5k points you shouldn't need any manual fighting, but depending on the time you have to spare, I suggest to just fight the last provinces manual. Usually there aren't much troops to be saved in the first provinces and your time is better invested in the later ones (of course for learning the combat those provinces wouldn't hurt). Doing some manual battles should forthermore help you in your troop selection for the auto battles. Watch the enemy troops closely, because your troops in auto battles will have the same flaws and the better you know them the better you will know to when it is better to cater instead (or which troops might work in difficult cases).

 

[ajqtrz]

In climbing the Spire I find it best to negotiate the first tier, fight the third tier, and, depending on the troops I have and how high/hard the tournament of the week will be, either fight or negotiate the middle tier. The middle tier is 5 goods. To optimize the negotiation I use what I call the Method of 3. (I got the basic strategy from @Darielle , btw, who suggested taking a good look at the first roll and considering starting over). So I take the first roll and look for 3. Either 3 remaining goods to offer, or 3 remaining guards to satisfy. If I get that I can win at least 80% of time in three rolls. If I don't get that, I restart. Seldom does it take more than one restart to get to that.

Now, of course, you may think if you get better than 3, you are better off. But if the number of guards left to satisfy is less than three, it's actually harder when the number of goods left to offer is more than 3. So I watch for that and consider it carefully if the number of guards left to satisfy is less than 3 and the number of goods left to offer is more than 3. Sometimes I start all over then.

Now as for the auto-fight vs manual, I've done both, but prefer auto-fight because it takes too much time to do 6x30-35 provinces manually. One thing I've learned in auto-fighting though, is that you don't want to have more than two types of troops and one is preferred. So I hover over each type and find the one that covers 4-5 of the enemies, even if they are evenly matched. Since I use buffs all the time this gives me a good advantage, or at least enough to win almost always even if it does take more troops.

And finally, I sometimes negotiate the first few provinces because it's cheaper than fighting for the first 3-10 provinces than using auto-fight. This enables me to conserve troops and use my own hybrid city to get the job done. I top the Spire and average around 8000, per week in the tournament. I do think it's a mistake to have a strategy of "all negotiation" or "all fighting," but maybe not.


AJ

 

[Mighty Peach]

Thoughts on this Lvl 17 Tournament encounter. No buffs present at all. Completely raw.

The terrain is as follows:

Now my choice for auto-fight would be this:

How will this go down? Just curious to hear some suggestions.