DeletedUser3122
Guest
Blame Inno for allowing it as a game mechanic.
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Your Elvenar Team
Inno's dealing with push accounts needs drastic improvement discussion
DeletedUser3507
Guest
Agreed
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
Yep, but it takes around 13,000 KP per wonder so
-if you push 500 KP per day to fill 10 wonders you are maxing them out in 9 months. Or
-if you just donate all of your own hourly KP it would take over 14 years. Quite the imbalance.
Far less I'd say.
Compare it to doing world map visits. If I visit every neighbor I'll get around 8m coins that I can use to buy 10 KP
It would take far less time to log in/out of 25 accounts, and that would get me 250 KP. 500 KP if I do it twice a day.
Hence the thread title..."Innos dealing with push accounts needs drastic improvement"
Is it clearly written in the rules? No. But it does provide a very obvious unfair advantage, and thus we have a thread discussing such behaviour.
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DeletedUser3122
Guest
No you said the improvement needed was to ban players. That's not a solution. Ratting out neighbors is not a solution. Monitoring neighbors and other FSs is not a solution. Inno completely changing game mechanics is the only reasonable solution. I'm not my neighbor's keeper.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
Where did I say that? It certainly isn't the only thing I'm suggesting if I did.
I've also been a strong proponent of the simple limitation that you should only be allowed to donate KP to your FS, and players that either you have discovered, or have discovered you as a starting point.*
I agree that reporting/banning players only treats the symptoms, not the cause of the problem. However, in the meantime until inno decides to release a very clear guideline on the rules and strict enforcement of them, banning the obvious extreme cheaters is something they should be doing as the vague "no pushing" rules already cover that.
I'm not sure I agree that "completely changing the game mechanics" falls under the category of "reasonable".
I mean would that really be easier than punishing a few extreme cases to send a message?
Unless your idea of a complete change is as I said above, then I'm with you.
Why not? Isn't that how rule enforcement works almost everywhere? I can't think of any system that is so foolproof that it doesn't require a little help. Perhaps it isn't a 100% solution, but inno clearly needs help with it.
How many crimes or broken laws are actually found without anyone reporting them? Certainly not all.
*Limiting KP donations to FS members and neighbors wouldn't help with FA cheaters though.
It could also be circumvented by rotating dummy accounts in and out of your FS to dump KP, but it would at least slow them down.
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Ashrem
Oh Wise One
you could find one, somewhere, and copy-paste.
DeletedUser9601
Guest
There are two mechanics that could reasonably fix this situation. Unless you can come up with some others, sitting back and telling Inno to fix the system to disabuse people of cheating is a poor position to take. And both solutions take some portion of the game that works perfectly fine for thousands of players, and turns it on its head because a few players are cheating.
1. Revamp AW development, so that AW progress is not tied to KP donation. This either A. greatly reduces the uniqueness of AWs, and their fun as buildings, or B. swaps out KPs for some other resource sink (goods, supplies, gold, relics) for progress. This marginally reduces pushing, because KP production is flat (same 24KP/hour, with some methods of increase) at Chapter 2 vs Chapter 12. So some players stop pushing, but others aren't deterred, and just push less quickly, because they need to spend some more time/effort on their push cities.
-Doesn't solve the problem, but maybe makes it less frequent.
2. On the back-end, have Inno more closely monitor some aspect of game play (IP address, login location, keystrokes?), and implement rules/scripts that physically prevent pushing accounts. Seems unlikely because A. unintended consequences (does the IP address system get confused by college dorms, or internet cafes?), and B. most of these efforts have been made by other online games, and VPNs and other methods have for the most part defeated them already.
Its insane to think that Inno is going to take these drastic steps when the easy solution is just to identify cheaters and punish them.
DeletedUser3507
Guest
With city size being at max, You will see alot of us leave the game, I no longer care.
Inno has failed to follow their own rules.
Inno has failed to follow their own rules.
DeletedUser3122
Guest
Why pay people to monitor people? Everyone can break the programming code to keep cheaters from cheating but unfortunately this also means a real person having to verify if it's a real person playing or scripting. Every game has these issues. I've yet to see any game that doesn't have cheaters that get around the code.
Real solutions are like what you mentioned - not allowing AWs to be filled by non-FS or non-discovered neighbors as a start.
I have no idea what anyone could do about members joining/quitting/rejoining FSs other than coding a watchdog system for abuse like that.
Being a neighbor's keeper has some seriously creepy qualities to it.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
You want creepy? Next time you hug someone other than your spouse, try whispering "You smell different when you're awake."
DeletedUser9601
Guest
Ok, but that is not a solution. Because multiple people have pointed out that some pushers form an FS that consists of 1 real account and 24 push accounts. So your solution doesn't even hit the biggest pushing offenders.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
Again, look at all of the pretty minor improvements we have asked for from inno's coders that have yet to be completed. Asking them to implement a system like you suggest seems like far more work than simply investigating some extreme cases that get reported, and the investigating can be performed by someone with virtually no skills at all.
Across all 21 regions where this game is available they effectively have a massive staff of volunteers that they could be using.
DeletedUser3122
Guest
Who even wants to play Elvenar long enough to care about maxing their AWs or being top ranking to the point of normalizing dozens of extra accounts? More importantly, Inno making it take 14 years to do the description above is bad game design, and because of that you will find players who try to subvert the system! Who wouldn't? Me. It's not worth my time. But some people's competitive egos get bruised over stuff like that.
I'm teetering on the edge of quitting since the first FA. I've seen lots of high rank players quit because there was nothing else to do.
Pushing KP is allowable according to Inno. They do not limit how many accounts a player has in any world. They said it themselves. Who are they to dictate what each person should do with their accounts?
This is a short-lived game. I've been at it for roughly 18 months and my level of boredom is pretty serious, even if they come out with another chapter. All those folks who live in the game with multiple accounts, in 5 years what will they have? If a new player starts today they have no hope of catching up to top ranks who are still active anyway.
I still don't get how the imbalance is a problem (and sure, it is imbalanced,...but?). If one is competitive, I understand it. If one is playing the game for the fun of completion and making friends, how does that ruin anyone's game? It surely has never ruined mine.
If Inno designed cheating into the game they are happy with it (but they don't call this cheating). They make money on diamonds and that's all they seem to care about really. It's not like anyone is trying to sell their Elvenar accounts en masse for real dollars. Other games yes. Elvenar probably not.
Lots & lots of games allow multiple accounts, even giving 5 character slots, such as Elderscrolls Online. I have 5 characters there and most of them act as a bank, holding items because I don't want to buy bank space. I've given my own characters higher level items to progress faster than my main account. Is that also cheating? I think not.
I understand wanting a level playing field. But Inno decided they would not do this and it doesn't seem likely they'll change their minds. As long as they allow unlimited extra accounts on the same server, it will be part of gameplay.
You are not defining pushing accurately. Inno does not consider that pushing. They as much said so themselves.
Pushing KP is easily solved.
Players that make multiple accounts is not bannable and not cheating. You need to appeal to Inno to change their definition of pushing. That's not going to happen. So what's your issue? With my opinion or Inno?
Asking them to make KP donations to FS members and discovered neighbors only is more work than checking up on players? I think not.
As for rotating FSs, that is outside the scope of this conversation and the definition of "pushing."
[MERGED BY XELENIA]
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DeletedUser188
Guest
This is a Elvenar issue not a inno games issue
Elvenar is the only inno game that I know of that allows the KPs we gain to be donated to a player playing from the same IP address
Stop players ability to donate from same IP address and this wouldn't be an issue
Elvenar is the only inno game that I know of that allows the KPs we gain to be donated to a player playing from the same IP address
Stop players ability to donate from same IP address and this wouldn't be an issue
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
No, it isn't. The idea is that you should specialize in a few wonders and level them very high, or spread the KP among many wonders and have them at lower levels.
Being able to have all wonders maxed removes any meaningful choices.
It most certainly is not, please provide a link where you saw that.
As has been pointed out many times already, ranked players spend money, and how much money inno makes directly effects the quality of game everyone gets. So if ranked players quit spending due to being unable to compete with cheaters, that effects everyone.
Even smaller players might be tempted to spend a few diamonds to get a better reward in the FA, but what's the point if you just get beat by cheaters?
100% wrong. Push accounts as defined by inno are those that have the sole purpose of giving things to your main account. Using push accounts to get a better FA ranking for your main account obviously qualifies.
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DeletedUser9601
Guest
First, its a fine game design, if the intent is that players are supposed to maybe max 1 or 2 AWs, or have a dozen low-level AWs. Plenty of games have concepts where there is a set of items, abilities, etc. that you can focus on, but you can't get them all.
Second, in the prior pushing thread (since locked or deleted), you're wrong about pushing. Inno was clear that you are allowed multiple accounts in one world, but if those accounts are only used to actually progress in the game. Meaning if you build your cities to Chapter 2, then do nothing else but give KP to the main account, you are breaking the rules.
You make it seem like they need an army of people to track this cheating. They already do. They have people cleaning out dead cities, moderating offensive language or harassment, monitoring non-pushing cheating, etc. Given that the cheating is insanely easy to find (these people literally show up at THE TOP OF A LIST), you're throwing up some really soft objections to any sort of enforcement.
DeletedUser13467
Guest
Buying diamonds isn't in the same category as pushers, though. Back to pushing. So what's to stop someone from going down to to the local library and using push accounts there? Nothing. Join the library side.
Do people expect this game to last 14 years without a sequal?
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
You are completely missing the point of wonders being so hard to level. You are supposed to make meaningful choices for what you want in your city.
Do you want 5 level 10 wonders, 3 level 20 wonders, or 2 level 25 wonders?
Cheating removes the need for that choice as you can simply have 12 level 25 wonders.
DeletedUser3507
Guest
have heard from # 2 that the main culprit uses a total of 52 pusher account on rotation. That's just nuts...
mikeledo
Well-Known Member
If INNO plays an honest game and Elvenar clearly does not. Maybe opining to Elvenar is useless and we need to go to INNO and ask them why Elvenar allows blatant cheating which begats more cheating. They don't have to ban anyone. They can suspend accounts for 30 days and remove all their KP. And rather than send us a cryptic e-mail that basically claims they don't do anything, expose the cheat and the punishment as deterrent, rather than allowing a person to cheat which encourages more cheating or honest people to leave.