Just Some Newbie Observations

[Dhurrin]

Yes, I have been doing all the SS techs. Without them you don't stand a chance in the province encounters as a small beginning city. But WITH them it takes forever to make enough troops to fill a squad. Unless (as stated before) you fill your city with armories (the effects of which are small so early on) but to do so you also need more pop and culture and space is already an issue.

And even though I have unlocked the crafting (yesterday) now, I can't just craft boosterbuildings when I see them, due to lack of resources.

No phoenix, no AWs to boost anything, no boosterbuildings, so troops are being slaughtered faster than I can make them anyway. Even if I were only to play from the PC and do every fight manually, the losses are still severe.

 

[Mykan]

And even though I have unlocked the crafting (yesterday) now, I can't just craft boosterbuildings when I see them, due to lack of resources.

MA should not have been left in the tech tree in that location. It needs to be closer to when you unlock spire otherwise you lose an expansion for several chapters.

For troops best bet is free troops buildings from events or troop instants (also from events). Just ignore how hard events are cause you dont have spire/tourny or a fellowship, lol.

 

[Deleted User - 850238979]

As I recall you're looking at one LARGE squad vs several small Squads. The small Squads can be killed on the way in. The large squad can penetrate your defenses and thereby do a lot more damage.

Take a close look at the squad sizes.

While this is true how are brand new cities supposed to know this? There is literally no training for fighting.

 

[Dhurrin]

While this is true how are brand new cities supposed to know this? There is literally no training for fighting.

That is one of the major problems. No in-game explanation on the fighting system at all.

That topic SHOULD be covered in the tutorial, at minimal to let new players know what type of fighter works best against what other type. For new players on the app it is even worse as they can not even see what is going on per round.
The same goes for the difference in squadsizes.

In my larger cities I can easily make a choice to eat some more losses by using the autofight option, or use the app. But using the autofight option leads to way more losses, which for a beginning city are hard to replace. A new player who doesn't understand the fighting system can have his troops completely wiped out in just a few encounters and then needs days to replace them.

Again NOT exactly a way to encourage new players to keep playing

 

[Deleted User - 850238979]

That is one of the major problems. No in-game explanation on the fighting system at all.

That topic SHOULD be covered in the tutorial, at minimal to let new players know what type of fighter works best against what other type. For new players on the app it is even worse as they can not even see what is going on per round.
The same goes for the difference in squadsizes.

In my larger cities I can easily make a choice to eat some more losses by using the autofight option, or use the app. But using the autofight option leads to way more losses, which for a beginning city are hard to replace. A new player who doesn't understand the fighting system can have his troops completely wiped out in just a few encounters and then needs days to replace them.

Again NOT exactly a way to encourage new players to keep playing

I always thought that an actual training arena would be ideal. You could practice manual fighting without any risk or cost of actual troups. Naturally there would be no reward for winning either but at least players could learn how to fight.

 

[Fayeanne]

I always thought that an actual training arena would be ideal.

I used to use tournaments for this, back when their squad sizes were so tiny that losses were negligible. Even now, the first few encounters in tournaments--and the first four encounters in the Spire--aren't too bad in terms of losses. Though not as nice as before.

 

[Dhurrin]

I used to use tournaments for this, back when their squad sizes were so tiny that losses were negligible. Even now, the first few encounters in tournaments--and the first four encounters in the Spire--aren't too bad in terms of losses. Though not as nice as before.

Yes, all true. However, with the new techtree you cannot get into the Tourneys until you are into chap 4, the Spire chap 5.
The tourneys are reasonable IF YOU ARE ON THE PC.
On the app you can only use autofight, but won't really understand the fighting system. You may pick the right units and still get clobbered because of the terrain.

For instance, my test-city just lost a battle where my opponents were 5 heavy ranged and 1 heavy melee. Since I don't have a lot of mageunits, I sent 5 heavy melee. But due to the terrain on autofight they got killed, while playing manually I won easily with the same set-up.

And with the Tourney not available until into chap 4, a lot of players will not get enough experience to really learn. With the short scouting times and the questline and the events pushing for more encounters, new players will be pressed to scout too far out and get clobbered in the province encounters, which are the only ones available to them.

 

[crackie]

I put in my dues observing autofights on browser and watching how AI send my troops to die. This is the only way to pick up advanced knowledge like how is AI targeting your troops, and in turn, how does AI prioritize targeting enemy troops when fighting for you. It’s both costly on your troops and your time because you can’t figure it out just watching one or two fights.

Just had this conversation last night with someone in chap 15 who took a long break from the game and came back. I was shocked her Needles is only at 9 because chap 15 is not exactly early game and it’s one of the first wonders unlocked. She said she had enough barracks units (you can never have enough troops!). She was lamenting the lack of DAs. I said hold on now. You don’t need DAs. It could just be a psychological thing like a safety blanket. You think fighting Spire is harder than it is. I know because I can prob do around 11k and full tourney on a UUU. She said it’s bc her troops are too wimpy and she is waiting on buff buildings to craft in MA. Well then, why is that Needles not even past second rune wheel?? It buffs your LR! 40% boost from Needles is better than an ELR!

I explained one of the disadvantages of app players is they can’t manual fight. If you manual fight, you will know very early the powerful combo of LR versus enemy mages with just Needles buffing. (Combined with a fed Fire Phoenix, no other combo let’s you kill an enemy unit in one shot that deep into tourney or Spire!) Therefore, I know enemy LR/mage/HM combos, even in the Lab with 3 waves, are a skip in the park for my pre-settlement city that just has a high Needles and no ELR or Fire Phoenix. No way I let my Needles sit at lvl 9 that long!

 

[Silver Lady]

The new tech tree is fine **if you all ready have plenty of experience to draw on**! I started a baby city to try the new tech tree and using all the knowledge I’ve gained from here, tips from FS members and my own playing I managed to progress well and not become frustrated with lack of resources. HOWEVER, if I’d been a “real newbie” I would have quit after a couple of weeks!!!

 

[BrinDarby]

I put in my dues observing autofights on browser and watching how AI send my troops to die. This is the only way to pick up advanced knowledge like how is AI targeting your troops, and in turn, how does AI prioritize targeting enemy troops when fighting for you. It’s both costly on your troops and your time because you can’t figure it out just watching one or two fights.

10000000000% valid.... and its why mobile needs manual fights.
The current AI is incredibly stupid and wastefull, and as always.....
terrain , terrain , terrain !!! When using autofight, troop placement
is even more critical to not losing as many troops.

Also there is a battle simulator @ ElvenArchitect, while the
learning curve to use it is kinda steep, its also an invaluable
resource to check out.

 

[Deleted User - 850238979]

I put in my dues observing autofights on browser and watching how AI send my troops to die. This is the only way to pick up advanced knowledge like how is AI targeting your troops, and in turn, how does AI prioritize targeting enemy troops when fighting for you. It’s both costly on your troops and your time because you can’t figure it out just watching one or two fights.

Just had this conversation last night with someone in chap 15 who took a long break from the game and came back. I was shocked her Needles is only at 9 because chap 15 is not exactly early game and it’s one of the first wonders unlocked. She said she had enough barracks units (you can never have enough troops!). She was lamenting the lack of DAs. I said hold on now. You don’t need DAs. It could just be a psychological thing like a safety blanket. You think fighting Spire is harder than it is. I know because I can prob do around 11k and full tourney on a UUU. She said it’s bc her troops are too wimpy and she is waiting on buff buildings to craft in MA. Well then, why is that Needles not even past second rune wheel?? It buffs your LR! 40% boost from Needles is better than an ELR!

I explained one of the disadvantages of app players is they can’t manual fight. If you manual fight, you will know very early the powerful combo of LR versus enemy mages with just Needles buffing. (Combined with a fed Fire Phoenix, no other combo let’s you kill an enemy unit in one shot that deep into tourney or Spire!) Therefore, I know enemy LR/mage/HM combos, even in the Lab with 3 waves, are a skip in the park for my pre-settlement city that just has a high Needles and no ELR or Fire Phoenix. No way I let my Needles sit at lvl 9 that long!

To be fair, I don't think you're a typical player, Crackie. I mean, you're exceptionally smart and technologically adept.

 

[Deleted User - 850238979]

The new tech tree is fine **if you all ready have plenty of experience to draw on**! I started a baby city to try the new tech tree and using all the knowledge I’ve gained from here, tips from FS members and my own playing I managed to progress well and not become frustrated with lack of resources. HOWEVER, if I’d been a “real newbie” I would have quit after a couple of weeks!!!

When did you start your new city?

I started one today and I hit the coin wall in less than an hour. The storyline quests aren't giving things I need yet like goods. I have the builder boosting coin production and full culture boost but I can't upgrade anything beyond level 2 because the cost (1000 coins to upgrade a ws to lv2) will take hours to accrue. The third storyline quest is to upgrade the main hall which is stupid given I can't even collect neighbourly help yet.

 

[crackie]

To be fair, I don't think you're a typical player, Crackie. I mean, you're exceptionally smart and technologically adept.

I went through that psychological phase is why I am aware it could be psychological. I used to think I need a crazy ton of expired buildings to do it and then would need to sprint every other Spire to make the most of my expired buff buildings. But one time, I didn’t get it done before they expired and was caught with not wanting to put out more just to do 4 more encounters. In the end, I just went for it and still won, including the big boss at the top. It was a light bulb moment when I realized I have over-exaggerated the Spire difficulty.

And yes, because I have put in the time studying fighting, I am an above average auto-fighter, but I think that just means there are varying degrees of how much we scare ourselves with Spire difficulty. Like for me, it could be 4 less buff buildings needed and for someone else, it might be 2 less buff buildings needed. If you are using less to get it done, it’s also less stress about running out of buff buildings or needing DAs to tackle Spire. I see that one a lot too.

With this particular example, the player was lamenting on MA not giving out enough buff buildings while ignoring the fact that Needles maxed out would give her more buffing natively than an ELR! See what I mean? It’s a mental crutch that she thinks she needs the ELR when the numbers show she is actually better off with Needles leveled up and no ELR than relying strictly on ELRs with a wimpy Needles. Hence, sometimes, it’s psychological and players see buffs like a security blanket.

 

[Silver Lady]

@Gordo the gassy
I started my little city about 8 or 9 weeks ago. I pretty much ignore the quest line and do what I want. I did’t build a barracks because I’m doing cater only. I’ve got more supplies than I need so I dump them in the Wholesaler (yes, I know he’s outrageous). Gold was only a short term problem. The city is in chapter 5 and currently on hiatus. In the new year I plan to mothball my big city in that world and play my little city as I found I really liked not having that stupid barrack and just catering. I wish I could sell my barracks in my other cities because they have some of the older goodies that I really like.

 

[crackie]

@Gordo the gassy
I started my little city about 8 or 9 weeks ago. I pretty much ignore the quest line and do what I want. I did’t build a barracks because I’m doing cater only. I’ve got more supplies than I need so I dump them in the Wholesaler (yes, I know he’s outrageous). Gold was only a short term problem. The city is in chapter 5 and currently on hiatus. In the new year I plan to mothball my big city in that world and play my little city as I found I really liked not having that stupid barrack and just catering. I wish I could sell my barracks in my other cities because they have some of the older goodies that I really like.

I have a city with lowest level barracks and those produce troop quests are awful. Be warned!

 

[Silver Lady]

@crackie
Troop instances that you can win help with that problem and/or I might build a Training Grounds or Mercenary Camp since both of those can be sold when I get tired of them.

 

[Deleted User - 850238979]

I went through that psychological phase is why I am aware it could be psychological. I used to think I need a crazy ton of expired buildings to do it and then would need to sprint every other Spire to make the most of my expired buff buildings. But one time, I didn’t get it done before they expired and was caught with not wanting to put out more just to do 4 more encounters. In the end, I just went for it and still won, including the big boss at the top. It was a light bulb moment when I realized I have over-exaggerated the Spire difficulty.

And yes, because I have put in the time studying fighting, I am an above average auto-fighter, but I think that just means there are varying degrees of how much we scare ourselves with Spire difficulty. Like for me, it could be 4 less buff buildings needed and for someone else, it might be 2 less buff buildings needed. If you are using less to get it done, it’s also less stress about running out of buff buildings or needing DAs to tackle Spire. I see that one a lot too.

With this particular example, the player was lamenting on MA not giving out enough buff buildings while ignoring the fact that Needles maxed out would give her more buffing natively than an ELR! See what I mean? It’s a mental crutch that she thinks she needs the ELR when the numbers show she is actually better off with Needles leveled up and no ELR than relying strictly on ELRs with a wimpy Needles. Hence, sometimes, it’s psychological and players see buffs like a security blanket.

For me, two things influence my preference for autobattle - time and access given I only use the app to play.

 

[Deleted User - 850238979]

@Gordo the gassy
I started my little city about 8 or 9 weeks ago. I pretty much ignore the quest line and do what I want. I did’t build a barracks because I’m doing cater only. I’ve got more supplies than I need so I dump them in the Wholesaler (yes, I know he’s outrageous). Gold was only a short term problem. The city is in chapter 5 and currently on hiatus. In the new year I plan to mothball my big city in that world and play my little city as I found I really liked not having that stupid barrack and just catering. I wish I could sell my barracks in my other cities because they have some of the older goodies that I really like.

I wouldn't even have unlocked neighborly help if I hadn't fought those early provinces. I would have had to build factories sooner which would have depleted my coin and supplies faster. As it is I have to spend an entire day just farming coin and supplies so I can get enough to unlock tech. I don't remember being so resource poor when I started my other cities a few months back.

 

[crackie]

I don't remember being so resource poor when I started my other cities a few months back.

There was always an early game coin crunch, even in the old tech tree, but best source of coins early game is neighborly help. That's now behind a tech. So is fellowship. That would be up to 24 NH coinage in one's coffers daily!

 

[BrinDarby]

Without eGems, eStats, eArchitect, the Forum, and
using a browser..... I certainly would've quit in less
than a week. Even with rollovers, you can't see what
a troop is good @ till you have @least 1 of them.
Learning the "fighting wheel" from eGems was 100%
necessary, when you only have 2-3 kinds of troops.

I've never used 5day bldgs and I have No AWs. Either
I learned the mechanics of the game, or I was SoL.
Just like @crackie , I watched the AIs battle many times.
I also tried the simulator @ eArchitect. Exploiting the
stupid AI, & in manual battle, is the best way to save
troops in the early CHs.

In AutoBattle, its both terrain, terrain, terrain, and
knowing which troops will attack, in what order....
( initiative/placement ) , to prevent "severe losses".

None of these things did I learn from Inno. Had it
not been for 3rd party sites, I would've been gone.
Yes, its a CityBuilder game, not a Fighting game,
but when fighting is integral to doing well and
progressing, it should fall on Inno to teach the
newbs the basics of the game and not rely on a
youtube videos and 3rd party sites.

When Finally, the Forum includes things like
Scrolls of Knowledge, so newbs have a repository
of good info to go by, Inno decides to shut it down.
Between the Beta Server, the mods, and 3rd party
sites, just think over 8 years how much free labor
Inno has gotten. Heck, just someone like @Lelanya ...
how many selfless hours has she put in over the
last 8 years, here on the Forum, and thats 1 person.
Then add in All the hours from All the volunteers.
Just like Discord now, alot of what makes the game
playable and keeps new talent here, is basically
sub-contracted out.