Knowledge Point Clubs - an analysis

[DeletedUser61]

KP can be purchased with goods and be of significant use

Yeah, you can invest them in Ancient Wonders, for example.

I'll agree that you can sell off your excess goods at the start of a Chapter, and thereby gain a few days and/or save a few Diamonds, but buying KPs is the epitome of short term planning, without regard for the consequences.

the rest of us - are playing the game now

If the Achiever class enjoys the InnoGames Steeplechase that's fine by me, but let's admit that they're just running laps, not making progress.

Of course I'm planning for the long-term. A year from now we'll be on our 10th or 11th chapter, and we'll have a dozen different Ancient Wonders available.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Yup. Currently it is beyond a waste of time and resources to build most of the wonders...except for the mountain halls.

If you're in a swap agreement, Ancient Wonders actually yield an EXTRA 10% for the invested Knowledge Points, plus a few Runes.

Not necessarily Kat. Stop repeating this false information. You have admitted readily and repeatedly that your yield depends on the game changing and adding the ability to have kp packets. Something that doesn't exist in this game. You are confusing people with these comments. You don't get anything guaranteed on investing in wonders. You can just as easily get 0% for your invested Knowledge Points. Plus, they cause a lot of hard feelings.

As it stands now, you give up a lot more than you get with most of the ancient wonders. All the boosted relics you spend cost you a lot more in bonus goods forever. You are better off using the space for a workshop and a residence.

The magic academy is also a huge waste of space now and it you are stuck with it forever once you build it. It may have some use once the fairies come, but for now, and until those mythical new features come where you can win relics by fighting, I am so sorry I built one on beta.

 

[DeletedUser61]

your yield depends on the game changing

That's completely false. RIGHT NOW all Ancient Wonders distribute all of the awards that they're ever going to deliver. 10% of the contributed KPs plus some Rune Shards.

• The 10% pool of awarded Knowledge Points is distributed 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, rounded down to a multiple of 5 points, amongst the top 5 contributors.
• Rune Shards, in number equal to the AW's level, are distributed round robin amongst the top 5 contributosrs.

1. A Global list will make AWs easier to find and monitor
2. A History Tab will make KP Clubs easier to manage, because you'll have accurate records
3. KP Award packets will reduce the risk of overflowing your KP bar, and losing some of the subsequent hourly KPs.
4. KP Award packets will add a tactical element to the Ancient Wonders mini-game of Reverse Chicken, in that you'll be able to sandbag and then contribute previously awarded KP packets when there's a chance to capture a slot.

Better tracking tools will make the mini-game more interesting, as will including contributed KPs in your score, but ALL of the awards are currently distributed. The only "loss" is that it possible to lose some of your subsequent hourly KPs if you're not being careful.

 

[DeletedUser1122]

Currently it is beyond a waste of time and resources to build most of the wonders.

I take it the AW "points" have not been introduced in Beta 1?

contributed KPs in your score,

Kat is the contributed KPs = points separate than the AW points or is that how AW points are to work?

 

[DeletedUser43]

That's completely false. RIGHT NOW all Ancient Wonders distribute all of the awards that they're ever going to deliver. 10% of the contributed KPs plus some Rune Shards.

"If you're in a swap agreement, Ancient Wonders actually yield an EXTRA 10% for the invested Knowledge Points, plus a few Runes."

There is no way to say that any other people can't swoop in on the swap team and take all the benefits for themselves leaving your team no bonuses at all.

I take it the AW "points" have not been introduced in Beta 1?

You are correct.

KP Award packets will

....

Doesn't matter what they will or won't do. KP Award packets do not exist in Elvenar.

A Global list will

...

A global list does not exist in Elvenar.

A History Tab will

...

A history tab of wonders donations does not exist in Elvenar.

or is that how AW points are to work?

They haven't told us anything on beta except that getting points for ancient wonders might be coming sometime eventually. Maybe. But Kat seems to work for Inno and often provides us images and information of things that haven't happened yet, so I am interested in this answer too.

 

[DeletedUser61]

You are misusing the term yield as in yielding an extra 10%.

In the swap club that I manage, everybody get's 100% of what they've invested, returned in kind, plus 10% and some Rune Shards. Within the week.

You're RISKING a loss of 90%, if you don't have a reliable swap agreement, but some folks also scatter 1 or 2 KPs in many different AWs. The dandelion approach does occasionally pay off but, overall, your Rate of Return will be terrible.

 

[DeletedUser43]

I guess if you are all giving each other the kp, you are getting your own kp back (ok, I edited the previous post), but how do you all block out any outsiders who want to donate to those wonders? You have access to some way of blocking them?

 

[DeletedUser]

At my FS in Brazilian server, we made a list of Ancient Wonders will be participate the KP Exchange.

I made a list that list all my FS members by AW Level and Player LVL
Low Player with Low AW will be the first one to receive help.
High Player with High AW will be the last one to receive help.
All the members who participate KP exchange, MUST deposite at least 03 KP's per day at current AW selected in the list, until it will be completed.
If AW complete all KP's necessary, we can jump to the next one in the list.

Ex:
Steiak - Sanctuary - Level 2

Balthazar - Martial M - Level 3

Daghda - Martial Ml - Level 3

Tatugabus- Martial M - Level 3

Alurion - Martial M - Level 3

LucasFiel - Great Bell Spire - Level 4

Insane - Mountain halls - Level 4

I've participated the last one with my Mountain Halls, but he reached level 10.

I think this is the best way to up all AW.
I have a list at Excel with all Kp's deposited by all participants

 

[DeletedUser61]

how do you all block out any outsiders who want to donate to those wonders?

It's actually much simpler than you might expect.

• We jump on the Ancient Wonders one at a time, and once we start then we level it.
• The outsiders can't keep up, because we get too far ahead, very quickly..
• They simply can't match our contribution rate.

Equally to the point, the group incurs no obligation when an outsider contributes, so if the outsider contributes 100 points, and captures one of the awards, the group is still 100-10=90 ahead, and those "unneeded" 90 points can be applied to the next Ancient Wonder that the group levels. The group isn't really "losing" anything, because they're still getting awards that are proportional to the invested KPs, but they're gaining 90 "free" points.

The most visible "problem" arises when a KP group is using a rotation, rather than jumping on their AWs one at a time. The slow gradual accumulation of points simply dangles irresistible bait in front of the sharks, and the timing is very easy to track and predict. The sharks will store up some scouted sectors, wait until the rotation is at 16%+16%+16%+16%+16%, and then they will swoop in with 20% to finish the level and take 50% of the awards.

 

[DeletedUser1122]

so I am interested in this answer too.

We may stay that way for a long time I'm waiting to hear from Korea, not sure if it is north or south though

 

[DeletedUser43]

We jump on the Ancient Wonders one at a time, and once we start then we level it.

How big is your group? If you can only donate 24 a day and you have 10 members then still that is only 240 kp a day. Some levels take a lot more than that. And that is if your whole group is donating to one particular wonder. You can only store 10 kp at a time, so the best your group could donate at once is 100kp. Then you have to wait 10 hours to donate more. That leaves plenty of time for outsiders to jump in.

I can't figure out how you would level them all up at one time. Unless you have 60 members or so. And if you do and you are rotating help one at a time, then when a person joins your group they don't get any help on their wonder for 2 months? That can't be right. How do you do it?

 

[DeletedUser]

You can only store 10 kp at a time

You can store more than 10 KP's. If you have 10 KP's in your bar allready then any KP's received from AW awards and completed encounters will stack up. What you will lose though is the KP's you normally get every hour once you have 10 or more KP's.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Yes, but I am asking Kat in the sense of his ancient wonders club. I assume the club is not forgoing the hourly kp they accumulate or the club is really going to be slow.

 

[DeletedUser61]

And that is if your whole group is donating to one particular wonder.

The essential notion is that the sharks are facing the same limitations as the dedicated players, but their OWN AWs are not getting leveled. That's not sustainable.

• Most of the AWs in a spreadsheet supported group will stay at zero until the owner has contributed enough points to cover half of their level. So those AWs are not attractive targets for anybody. The outsiders can't tell if that AW is ever going to level. In fact if they DO horn in, that owner may may just switch buildings, and the outside points will just lay there and rot.
• On the other hand, when the shark looks at a building that has suddenly jumped 100 or so points, they're not likely to catch up so they leave you alone.
• The BAIT FISH are the predictable groups that GRADUALLY level all of their AWs. The sharks just wait until the fruit is ripe, and then they pluck the low-hanging fruit.

Once we have KP packets the reward structure doesn't change, nor does the rate at which you can accumulate Knowledge Points, but the tactical elements are far more interesting.

 

[DeletedUser]

You can store more than 10 KP's. If you have 10 KP's in your bar allready then any KP's received from AW awards and completed encounters will stack up. What you will lose though is the KP's you normally get every hour once you have 10 or more KP's.

You can storage as many points as you want

 

[DeletedUser43]

Most of the AWs in a spreadsheet supported group will stay at zero until the owner has contributed enough points to cover half of their level.

Isn't that inefficient? Your members have to contribute hundreds to their own level before they can help the group? Then how are they getting back 100% of their contributions or more?

 

[DeletedUser]

You need to see that the help group does not want to give you rewards for helping the structures of their companions. And yes helping everyone have a high structure regardless of personal gain.

 

[DeletedUser61]

Your members have to contribute hundreds to their own level before they can help the group?

It's the other way round.

• You slowly increase your Account Balance by contributing KPs to other members in the group
• As soon as you have contributed enough points to cover (half) of your own level, then you get a turn and everybody in the group contributes to your AW, which quickly drops your Account Balance
• The total Froms and the total Tos will always be equal.

The edge, which is small but very important, is that YOUR KPs will yield proportional awards EVERY week or so, so the Return on your Invested KPs much higher, and even more so if you reinvest your dividends and compound them once per week.

As an example, let's say that there are 6 people in your group.

• 20%+16%+12%+8%+4%=50% (of a group AW, on average) plus 0% in your own AW
  yields 2 award points for every 50 points invested = 4% ROI.
• 20%+0%+0%+.....=20% (in a single AW, one at a time)
  yields 2 award point for every 1*20 points invested = 10% ROI.

Simply because you're focusing on one AW at a time, rather than trying spreading your points around.

• The Return on your Investment is more than twice as high
• There's no requirement for everybody to contribute exactly the same amount
• There's never any low hanging fruit for the snipers.

 

[DeletedUser1122]

and want the indestructible rune for your mountain hall or monastery for upgrading them.

My problem is out of 98 provinces I have obtained a 4.8% success rate in getting mountain hall rune shards. Is there any way to gain Dwarven AW's shards other than through provinces or diamonds?

 

[DeletedUser43]

In the past 22 provinces I haven't received one mountain hall shard on beta. I feel your pain. Besides provinces and diamonds you get them from helping other people who have mountain hall wonders. But that takes a lot of kp.