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    Your Elvenar Team

Mercenary Camp?

Cerberus is the best light melee unit, hands down. The Training Grounds is worth it for Cerberus alone.
Definitely get a Mercenary Camp; get one immediately if you are playing Elves. Blossom Mages are great, while sorceresses are terrible.
They are certainly very good against mage class and their speed compensate for abbot and thornrose range...but against light ranged units, don't you think barbarians or drone riders are more effective?
 

Ed1960

Well-Known Member
They are certainly very good against mage class and their speed compensate for abbot and thornrose range...but against light ranged units, don't you think barbarians or drone riders are more effective?
just to provide an easier answer I find that the blossom Mage is great and gets better with age except against 2 Dryads or 2 Cerberus, that is the only weak point. Other than that they are a goto fighter.
 

samidodamage

Well-Known Member
While @shimmerfly is correct about the age of the post, I don't think much if anything has changed about the troops being discussed. @LutherTheHairy Those dogs are decent against mages, but not as good against the light range classes. I only have elf cities and I'm guessing you're human and from what I understand that means your mortars (heavy range) are not a very good alternative, but for me, I always use golems (heavy range) against light range. I've heard from humans that one of their best moves is crafting a bunch of the Grounds of the Orc Strategists building as soon as they can as those are much better against light range. As soon as you can build those buildings, you can use the units you get even if you haven't yet unlocked the Training Grounds. I find drone riders do well against light range, but are more vulnerable to the enemy heavy range (and heavy melee, but it's easier to keep out of their range) that are usually also present.
Since my cities are further along, I mainly use my barracks light melee (sword dancers for me, barbarians for human) as cannon fodder. They're useful in early tourney rounds (under the current structure; that's changing so this post won't age well, lol).
Agree completely with @Ed1960 about the blossom mage, but I think Luther is early chapters and quite a ways from being able to build a Mercenary Camp. In manual fights, I can often keep them out of range of the enemy dogs; what I despise are the enemy Mist Walkers, lol!
 

Ed1960

Well-Known Member
@samidodamage You are of course correct, I should have been clear that Dryad/Mist Walkers are deadly to the Blossom mage. The dogs can be negated due to terrain many times so that is a slight advantage. Also, I would suggest that if possible you craft the Vallorian Valor every time as they with the Blossom mage and Golems/Frogs are Wonderful fighters that excel far beyond the stated ability.
 
I think Luther is early chapters and quite a ways from being able to build a Mercenary Camp
I am near the end of chapter two and only just built my training grounds. Looking at the unit chart in the wiki, it seemed the Cerberus were anti-mage specialists, and I recall watching them drop quickly in province battles where I have faced them so I thought maybe barbarians still have relative value against light ranged until I can train mortars.

Thank you all for your replies.
 

samidodamage

Well-Known Member
only just built my training grounds
Cerebus will get better as they get promotions (they go from the 1-star to 3-star), but for me they are glass cannons even at 3 star. With a higher star barbarian, those may be better for you atm, esp against light range.
I can craft Enlightened Light Range (increase light range attack+50%)) and Unleashed Unit Upgrades (increase health points +25% all units) and place them for 5 days before they expire (using them while tourney is active for 5 days), I tend to use my light range where I previously used dogs. With that attack boost and health boost, it gives them a slight edge over most other light range units and they're decent against both light melee and mages. If there are combos of light range and mage in the defense units, I find I lose fewer light range units than I would dogs, esp if the 3rd enemy unit is heavy range. I still throw my sword dancers in for the early tourney rounds (you can get barracks light melee free from the Dwarven Bulwark, but that's end of Ch6) since I don't care about how many losses I have of those troops.
 

Henroo

Well-Known Member
I am near the end of chapter two and only just built my training grounds. Looking at the unit chart in the wiki, it seemed the Cerberus were anti-mage specialists, and I recall watching them drop quickly in province battles where I have faced them so I thought maybe barbarians still have relative value against light ranged until I can train mortars.

Thank you all for your replies.
When I was in the early chapters I decided that a barracks light melee (either Ax Barbarian or Sword Dancer) with the promotion was better in most fights than a level 1 Cerberus. I tore down my Training Grounds. This freed up space and population, both of which are usually in short supply in a young city. Doing this let me be a little heavier on manufactories than I could have been at that same stage of the game had I kept Training Grounds. And I had no issue clearing map provinces or doing tournament using only barracks units.
 

Tedious

Well-Known Member
Merc Camp is definitely not worth it for early chapters, because the population cost is too high, and frankly the fights aren't that hard. But once you're in guest races, it's hard to fight well without the Merc Camp.

It's been awhile, but I always hated dryads vs anything. Their lack of movement meant that they'd take 2 hits minimum before getting in range. Whereas dogs would take a hit, but you could get across the map except in situations with the worst terrain.

But once you get to late game, heavy ranged is by far the best bet for any fight that is half or more light ranged.

So in conclusion, Merc Camp is great, but the value of each unit of course depends on the enemy units and the terrain. If you plan on seriously fighting in tourneys (1k points+), you really need access to all unit types.
 

samidodamage

Well-Known Member
It's been awhile, but I always hated dryads vs anything.
Yes! Even their 3star 'decrease attack' bonus is laughable! I'd rather throw an archer in, at least they decrease defense and have higher initiative, so are at least as effective against enemy heavy melee as the dryads.
 
Merc Camp is definitely not worth it for early chapters, because the population cost is too high
I disagree. I am in chapter 3. My Training Grounds is level 2. If I sell it, I get 54 people back. That is enough to purchase 1/2 of a tier 2 goods manufactory at my current technology pegged level 4 , or enough people to upgrade one of my L8 tier 1 manufactories to L9. It is not enough to upgrade my L6 main hall to L7.

It DOES take up a good chunk of space space and I question its value for just this one specialty unit (ceberus) but people consumption is not a significant drawback for me in chapter III . (At least ceberus train quickly. I will be using my training grounds to recruit "a big amount of units" in today's Pilgrimage daily quest. I will have 72 units waiting to be harvested and it will only take 2h45m to make another 72.)
 

Ed1960

Well-Known Member
I disagree. I am in chapter 3. My Training Grounds is level 2. If I sell it, I get 54 people back. That is enough to purchase 1/2 of a tier 2 goods manufactory at my current technology pegged level 4 , or enough people to upgrade one of my L8 tier 1 manufactories to L9. It is not enough to upgrade my L6 main hall to L7.

It DOES take up a good chunk of space space and I question its value for just this one specialty unit (ceberus) but people consumption is not a significant drawback for me in chapter III . (At least ceberus train quickly. I will be using my training grounds to recruit "a big amount of units" in today's Pilgrimage daily quest. I will have 72 units waiting to be harvested and it will only take 2h45m to make another 72.)
Luther if you are in Chap 3 and the merc camp is available in Chap 7. therefor you are mixing apples and cantaloupes. Mercenary Camp is the third type of troop production, Training Grounds is the second.
 

Henroo

Well-Known Member
I disagree. I am in chapter 3. My Training Grounds is level 2. If I sell it, I get 54 people back. That is enough to purchase 1/2 of a tier 2 goods manufactory at my current technology pegged level 4 , or enough people to upgrade one of my L8 tier 1 manufactories to L9. It is not enough to upgrade my L6 main hall to L7.

It DOES take up a good chunk of space space and I question its value for just this one specialty unit (ceberus) but people consumption is not a significant drawback for me in chapter III . (At least ceberus train quickly. I will be using my training grounds to recruit "a big amount of units" in today's Pilgrimage daily quest. I will have 72 units waiting to be harvested and it will only take 2h45m to make another 72.)
If you are in chapter 3 then you should have the level 2 promotion for your barracks light melee unit. But your Cerberus is still level 1. I felt regular barracks infantry with the promotion was better than a level 1 cerberus when I was at that stage of the game. Which is why I scrapped my training grounds. I think mine was level 3 or 4 when I got rid of it, so I got more people back than the 54 you are talking about. Plus the big block of space it freed up.
 
ou should have the level 2 promotion for your barracks light melee unit. But your Cerberus is still level 1. I felt regular barracks infantry with the promotion was better than a level 1 cerberus when I was at that stage of the game

Barbarians are ABSOLUTELY tougher than the Cerberus, BUT when facing off against a squad or three of thorn rose mages with their -40% damage(!) for three(!!) rounds, Cerberus' speed and +60% against mages make them an excellent problem solver. I have a tournament province where EVERY encounter has at least one squad of thorn rose, and usually 2.

If any of them survive that initial round of attacks, I have found the remnants moderately useful to lure Heavy Melee creatures in particular directions. I can drag them all over the map while my mages peck away at them. I doubt my 2 star axe barbarians (LMs) would have made it across the field to the mages before being wiped out by multiple range attacks and the HMs that seem to often flank them.

I had one encounter against 5 squads of thorn rose mages only. I put in 5 Cerberus, and only lost 1.5 squads... pretty sweet.
 

Ed1960

Well-Known Member
Barbarians are ABSOLUTELY tougher than the Cerberus, ...
Just for clarification, the "Barbarians" are for the Human side only and as the Elven side gets the "Sword Dancer" IMO tho the "barracks" light melee troops have little use other than fodder for the majority of battles, Yes a few times they are useful, but I prefer the dogs in most cases.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
Just for clarification, the "Barbarians" are for the Human side only and as the Elven side gets the "Sword Dancer" IMO tho the "barracks" light melee troops have little use other than fodder for the majority of battles, Yes a few times they are useful, but I prefer the dogs in most cases.
I echo these sentiments. I have tons of Sword Dancers doing pretty dances in their barracks because they are pretty much useless on the field of battle. But the dogs penetration abilities give me time to weaken and/or destroy anything on the field early even if my dogs die in the process. Dogs over Dancers is what I call it.

AJ
 

samidodamage

Well-Known Member
Agree from an Elf perspective (Sword Dancers) that their best (and even then infrequent) use is fodder and has been for quite some time for me. While their health and attack points may be higher than the dogs (that are glass cannons in their own right), their more restricted range means they are vulnerable to more hits (reducing health and attack) so they aren't even attacking at full strength when they finally reach the target. I did reach a point where it was more efficient to use the Sword Dancers, but iirc, it was after Orcs and building Shrooms and the next Training Grounds upgrade was far away. I also get some Sword Dancers from the Bulwark. The Training Camp times became over twice as long as the Barracks, and dogs are not twice as good, nor did I get any of them 'free' lol! Honestly, light melee have such limitations with their range and initiative (melee get hit before even getting a chance to strike more frequently than other types); even if they reach the target, light melee are always vulnerable to an enemy strike-back if that enemy unit has strike-back. Losses are going to be higher even when battles are won. I tend to lean towards light range whenever possible. With a fully evolved Fire chicken, placing temp military boost bldgs (elr(s) and uuu or dwarven armorer), and upgraded Needles and Monastery, my light range gain enough strength that I consider them to have an advantage over most enemy light range units (Mist Walkers are still nasty with their increased movement range and higher initiative). I find Archers very effective in line-ups against mostly light range and mages unless there are enemy light melee as counter units in the line-up as well. I mix them with a couple of heavy range (frogs once I got them to 2star) in that case and manually take out the light melee first. Enemy mages generally target the light range first if they survive the initial hits from the archers, and don't tend to go after my heavy range. Of course, archers handle heavy melee counter units well. With no more than 1 heavy range counter unit, I can focus on manually taking out the heavy range first; then finish on auto. With 2 or more heavy range, mixing with mages and manual fighting is sometimes effective; I'd worry about the mages getting into range of enemy light range on auto.
So, using light range makes me think through each fight more than using dogs and expecting/preparing for extra losses. If time is an issue, that, combined with at least partial manual combat would be less likely to seem appealing.