New players get the shaft

[Kaelistea]

With the recient changes in the game it seems to me new players get shafted. This is a cooperative game, however, new players are forced to play alone. It has always botherd me that new players were required to build the Magic Academy long before they had access to the Spire, where most of the crafting supplies are found. Now, neighborhoods need to be unlocked before you can even offer and recieve help from neighbors. What's up with that? Fellowships need to be unlocked? One of the benefits of a fellowship is the ability to play in tournaments. However, with the new changes, new players who have waited to gain access to a fellowship, are forced to sit there and watch their fellows play in the tournaments and win cool stuff while waiting to unlock tournaments. This seems to me to be a lot of BS.,

I didn't start this game to race to the end. Many players can't play every day or even every week. Many of us have lives beyond this game. Elvenar used to be fun. Now it seems it's all about buying diamonds and getting to the end as fast as you can. The alternative is to slog along and wait to aquire enough of whatever is required to make a LITTLE progress - and don't even get me started about the cauldron.

I realize the research tree was changed to "make the game more balanced" but it seems to me the developers didn't concider these changes from the perspective of new players.

 

[Elovios]

Hello,

Could you give us some examples of the game being more user-friendly (especially for the newest players) in the past that don't apply now? Just to get a clear picture of what you're describing.

Thank you for sharing your opinion!

 

[crackie]

It’s true, but the new tech tree is a lot cheaper to get through with regards to resources needed. FS can be unlocked pretty quickly since it’s in chap 2. The other pain points are indeed real. MA is broken up into a bunch of different tech fragments and is pretty useless early game now. Upgrading MA is still best use of diamonds but it is a pretty unproductive building in beginning chapters. You don’t have enough CCs, spell frags, or relics to do much. With tourney delayed until chap 4, it might also encourage people to overscout trying to acquire relics from map provinces. Heaven forbids newbie also blows their limited cache of CCs on a bunch of old bases you have no artifacts to evolve because you don’t know better.

From an AM standpoint, new tech tree stinks. You get players that can’t fully contribute back to FS in all team aspects—tourney, Spire, and FA. Why make them inferior teammates and create a two-tier system within a fellowship? Nobody wants to feel like second class citizens. Also makes AM avoid recruiting them and a good FS makes a big difference.

 

[Lelanya]

Also. We have given feedback over  years in various forms and contexts about new players who started their own fellowship. Players who are new to the game should not be doing this, they need the guidance of more experienced players. @crackie can link about her experiences in just such a fellowship.

Instead of hearing our pleas, the result is, new players are shackled with a terrible experience of playing on their own, unable to earn many relics (that are used up while cooking spells). They cannot replenish relics with tournament. The questline in events lately points them towards reliance on spells, which is a poor way to start playing. When I started to play there was no tournament; once Support pointed out that I used up all of my marble relics cooking Power of Provision spells I parked my Magic Academy off road until chapter 4 as it was  that useless (we didn't have Crafting then either, but we also had no Spell Fragments).

You can isolate new players into my experience with learning the game by denying them access to serious game features, but then, move Magic Academy out of Chapter 1, where the building takes all of an expansion for Elven players or most of one for human players, as it is largely useless to them.

Not to mention the still broken (just on different ways) move feature, but hey, why not, because on top of all my other handicaps my original city spawned in a distant pod out beyond the rim of active players. Without a Fellowship I would have been alone.

 

[StarLoad]

While not a New player, I had a City migrated to ch 5 from ch 3. The first issue is all the Updates that I have no resources to upgrade and while I have enough space to do this I don't have the Coins or supplies to make that happen and complete the Quests in an event or season, The BUY KP is a killer for small cities. Spell fragments for crafting, Nope not enough, and I already disenchanted every extra building I had or won. So now I have to disenchant Artifacts Now? Where does that make sense?I still have 30+ provinces to finish just to get current for chapter 6. But I will not have the resources to support my city.

 

[Sprite1313]

In addition to what has already been mentioned, the placement of Ancient Wonders on the tech tree is bad. We used to get the Golden Abyss and Tome of Secrets in Chapter 2. These were both great early chapter wonders, as they helped solve the bottleneck of coins and supplies (and KP). Then you'd get the EE and Needles in Chapter 3. Again, these could help build an early city and set them up so they could grow and start to tourney. Then in chapter 4 was the MM/Sanctuary and the Crystal Lighthouse/GBS which helped with culture boost, goods and fighting. Now these are all dumped into chapter 4. This means that players have to wait longer for the benefits, will feel rushed/pressured with SIX wonders in one chapter, and have to wait longer to participate in KP swaps/wonder society with the FS (see @crackie's note above about second-class citizens). That also means when these players are tech locked, they have nothing to do with their surplus KP, and so lose the 24 free per day KP. Oh, and they are still getting the event quests to insert KP into an ancient wonder.

 

[Darielle]

I wholeheartedly agree with what everyone above has said. Each of them made different and extremely good points that I wish someone in management would read. (Thank you, Elovios, for asking for feedback. That's rare and we do appreciate it.)

We need to move the MA from chapter 1 to a later chapter. There's no use in blowing that much space and effort into a useless, good for nothing hulk. (And crafting enchantments is not a good reason to build it, because wasting relics that early is a shame.)

In addition to what has already been mentioned, the placement of Ancient Wonders on the tech tree is bad. We used to get the Golden Abyss and Tome of Secrets in Chapter 2. These were both great early chapter wonders, as they helped solve the bottleneck of coins and supplies (and KP). Then you'd get the EE and Needles in Chapter 3. Again, these could help build an early city and set them up so they could grow and start to tourney. Then in chapter 4 was the MM/Sanctuary and the Crystal Lighthouse/GBS which helped with culture boost, goods and fighting. Now these are all dumped into chapter 4. This means that players have to wait longer for the benefits, will feel rushed/pressured with SIX wonders in one chapter, and have to wait longer to participate in KP swaps/wonder society with the FS (see @crackie's note above about second-class citizens). That also means when these players are tech locked, they have nothing to do with their surplus KP, and so lose the 24 free per day KP. Oh, and they are still getting the event quests to insert KP into an ancient wonder.

Six wonders in one chapter? Was the person who thought that up drunk??? No offense, but it seems to me you'd have to be to dump that on poor newbies. Reminds me of an old, old Lil Abner song ... "put 'em back the way they was ..." Giving newbies zero place to put their kp when they are locked on the tech tree is simply cruel.

As far as neighbors go ... I didn't research that part, but are you telling me that you can't even gift neighbors immediately? SHEEEEEESSSSSHHHH.

Inundating people with the need to buy diamonds to do even the most basic things in the very beginning will backfire. Newbies will leave in droves, and you can bet the devs won't blame themselves. They'll just say, "Well, I guess people are losing interest in the game." Heck no ... they're losing interest in the mad dash to squeeze every single cent out of new players before they can actually have any f-u-n.

 

[Silver Lady]

I started a new city to experience first hand the new tech tree. I have to say without having an ‘older and wiser’ head it would be very dire as it is it’s just dire. Just on regular play it very hard to get enough relics for my boosted goods (I‘m ignoring the MA because I can’t afford to waste relics on enchantments). Without the relic boost for goods it takes days to complete any quest that calls for a good amount of goods. Without PoP enchantments the same applies to quests to resupply your inhabitants. I thought I might die the death before I could give neighborly help and KP languished in my bar because I couldn’t do tech and couldn’t donate to any AWs. I felt a very poor neighbor because I couldn’t reciprocate to the very kind neighbors who took pity on my poor city. This little city was started back at the beginning of July and I play it mostly twice a day and I was just able to open tournaments day before yesterday. If I wasn’t running this little city as an experiment & I didn’t have the experience that I have I would have quit weeks ago!

 

[Iyapo]

I think that the difference in the KP requirements of the tech tree needs to be considered when voicing some of these complaints.

Yes, 6 wonders get introduced in Chapter 4 in the new tree. However, if you play like your hair is on fire and you speed through early chapters as fast as you can....
The old tree it took a month and 5 days to hit chapter 4.
The new tree it takes 13 days to hit chapter 4.

Most players do play more casually but still, the reduced KP requirements in the early chapters are, imo, a win.

 

[Lelanya]

I started a new city to experience first hand the new tech tree. I have to say without having an ‘older and wiser’ head it would be very dire as it is it’s just dire. Just on regular play it very hard to get enough relics for my boosted goods (I‘m ignoring the MA because I can’t afford to waste relics on enchantments). Without the relic boost for goods it takes days to complete any quest that calls for a good amount of goods. Without PoP enchantments the same applies to quests to resupply your inhabitants. I thought I might die the death before I could give neighborly help and KP languished in my bar because I couldn’t do tech and couldn’t donate to any AWs. I felt a very poor neighbor because I couldn’t reciprocate to the very kind neighbors who took pity on my poor city. This little city was started back at the beginning of July and I play it mostly twice a day and I was just able to open tournaments day before yesterday. If I wasn’t running this little city as an experiment & I didn’t have the experience that I have I would have quit weeks ago!

I commend you @Silver Lady, I have been tempted but sadly, abandoned cities make me feel guilty, and I have too many already.

After grave and careful thought - I see why they put the Magic Academy in chapter 1. First of all, it needs diamonds to be improved, so the lure is there, for new players, to improve it. Also there is no way to fulfill the requirement "Gain Spell Fragments" without one. I'm going to looking more closely at the questlines to see if there are alternatives being offered for these quests.

How sad it is when the best advice that can be offered to a new player is, hurry up! Things improve in later chapters.

 

[Alram]

It was always a city building game. All the other stuff is just "extra". I am seeing a lot of new players who are having a great time just building their cities. They don't want to be "playing like their hair is on fire."

 

[getmomo]

This thread feels like deja vu

 

[Smooper]

I will play Devil's Advocate here. While it is tough to progress when you are new, this game shouldn't be about how quickly you master all of its elements. New players can join an established fellowship but I don't know why they should be expected to contribute like a chapter 14 player. I think at ch. 4 or ch. 5 a player might have enough knowledge to start developing the way they want/should. There is enough to do just making your workshops, manufactories and residences with some culture and misc. buildings mixed in. Why do you need to use the Magic Academy and get up the spire and provide 1500 pts in the tournament if you aren't ready?

 

[Sprite1313]

New players can join an established fellowship but I don't know why they should be expected to contribute like a chapter 14 player

They can, once they are in chapter 2. And I don't think anyone is arguing they should contribute the same as a chapter 14 player. The issue is that they can't participate at all. That means they don't get any of the rewards for tournament, and don't have the choice of whether or not to do spire. They can't even participate in FAs until they do additional research. So, they can be in a fellowship, but can't do tourney, spire or FAs?

Why do you need to use the Magic Academy and get up the spire and provide 1500 pts in the tournament if you aren't ready

I don't think anyone expects a new player to achieve that. But think of the rewards they are missing out on. We just brought a new player into our FS who won't be able to do that, but he will be able to get a bunch of AWKPs, RRs and enchantments from fellowship rewards. Well, he will once he gets to chapter 4, and can do tournament. Until then, he is losing out on a lot of perks we could be helping him win in order to grow.

 

[Mijal]

IAlso there is no way to fulfill the requirement "Gain Spell Fragments" without one. I'm going to looking more closely at the questlines to see if there are alternatives being offered for these quests.

Actually disenchanting doesn't become available until you unlock the "crafting" research, which is 2 chapters later than the MA currently.

 

[Lelanya]

Actually disenchanting doesn't become available until you unlock the "crafting" research, which is 2 chapters later than the MA currently.

Ah right, thank you!

 

[Smooper]

They can, once they are in chapter 2. And I don't think anyone is arguing they should contribute the same as a chapter 14 player. The issue is that they can't participate at all. That means they don't get any of the rewards for tournament, and don't have the choice of whether or not to do spire. They can't even participate in FAs until they do additional research. So, they can be in a fellowship, but can't do tourney, spire or FAs?

I don't think anyone expects a new player to achieve that. But think of the rewards they are missing out on. We just brought a new player into our FS who won't be able to do that, but he will be able to get a bunch of AWKPs, RRs and enchantments from fellowship rewards. Well, he will once he gets to chapter 4, and can do tournament. Until then, he is losing out on a lot of perks we could be helping him win in order to grow.

Just think of the AW's they are missing out on and all the relics and diamonds and magic residences and time instants and KP instants they miss out on by not being a high level player.

Small player = small rewards
Big player = big rewards

 

[Astram]

Please try to keep the commentary out and the feedback in.

 

[senate7]

With the recient changes in the game it seems to me new players get shafted. This is a cooperative game, however, new players are forced to play alone. It has always botherd me that new players were required to build the Magic Academy long before they had access to the Spire, where most of the crafting supplies are found. Now, neighborhoods need to be unlocked before you can even offer and recieve help from neighbors. What's up with that? Fellowships need to be unlocked? One of the benefits of a fellowship is the ability to play in tournaments. However, with the new changes, new players who have waited to gain access to a fellowship, are forced to sit there and watch their fellows play in the tournaments and win cool stuff while waiting to unlock tournaments. This seems to me to be a lot of BS.,

I didn't start this game to race to the end. Many players can't play every day or even every week. Many of us have lives beyond this game. Elvenar used to be fun. Now it seems it's all about buying diamonds and getting to the end as fast as you can. The alternative is to slog along and wait to aquire enough of whatever is required to make a LITTLE progress - and don't even get me started about the cauldron.

I realize the research tree was changed to "make the game more balanced" but it seems to me the developers didn't concider these changes from the perspective of new players.

You've got that right.
Just today I got a question from a junior city in our FS in chat, wanting to know if there was any other way to obtain Vision Vapor than in the Magic Academy. I misunderstood why it was they wanted to know, assuming it was because they were wanting to gain 100 Vision Vapor in order to collect the prize. No- it is a quest without an alternative option in the Zodiac event, quest # 52 I believe, and because she hasn't researched the MA yet she can go no farther in the event.
Usually there is an option to do a different task but not now.
Inno is dropping the ball recently when it comes to planning out these paths we need to follow.

 

[Astram]

You've got that right.
Just today I got a question from a junior city in our FS in chat, wanting to know if there was any other way to obtain Vision Vapor than in the Magic Academy. I misunderstood why it was they wanted to know, assuming it was because they were wanting to gain 100 Vision Vapor in order to collect the prize. No- it is a quest without an alternative option in the Zodiac event, quest # 52 I believe, and because she hasn't researched the MA yet she can go no farther in the event.
Usually there is an option to do a different task but not now.
Inno is dropping the ball recently when it comes to planning out these paths we need to follow.

You can have the player send a support ticket in and see if the Quest can be completed for them.